Be friends! Please!... Amiga and Genesi! I love you both!, but...

[KennyR]

Waccoon wrote:
They decided to use proprietary hardware despite their "Amiga Anywhere" initiative. They decided to build their own hardware despite the fact they know nothing about manufacturing. They settled on a wimpy, little-known PowerPC chipset when powerful, robust, competitive, and well-tested x86 chipsets were staring them in the face.

The PPC is not the problem. PPC is the best short-term solution for an NG AmigaOS - full backwards compatibility with 68k on x86 is impossible, as the AROS team will tell you. I'm not interested in an OS that doesn't run at least a little of my Amiga software. I might as well skip to Windows or Linux then.

The problem is a broken northbridge and a broken AC97, which was later removed from newer designs. Unfortunately Articia will cripple the A1 design for years to come, no matter how some people try to deny it.

Don't tell me magical x86 chipsets doesn't suffer from bugs - even mass produced, widely used ones. For instance my PC *still* BSODs every six hours or so due to its buggy VIA VT chipset. And the better chipsets are jealously guarded and developer support is non-existent. Even on linux support is poor and patchy. For a niche system like OS4, support would be impossible.

[KennyR]

@BigBenAussie

Where exactly do you get this idea that OS4 will be an unstoppable market when it comes out? There are currently only 1000 or so A1 users and this will be very lucky to get to 2000. Worldwide, Amiga name is either completely unknown or a laughing stock. People aren't interested in an OS where badly behaved software can bring down the system. People aren't interested in hardware that will cost them a bomb yet still be seriously underpowered by modern standards.

OS4 isn't in a position to dictate any standards. As we've seen, it's already being forced to change to compare to other Amigalike OS's due to user demand. If it was up to users it would already run on Pegasos. Hell, it would even run on PCs. I don't see where you're getting this delusion from that when it comes out it'll have tens of thousands of users and be able to set its own standards. That just isn't going to happen.

I think the whole point of the Amiga is that it is Amiga compatible and if Morphos does not maintain compatability with the official Amiga Operating System, then why would you stick with Morphos except if you already own one.

Because MorphOS is MORE compatible with the original AmigaOS than OS4 is!

[BigBenAussie]

@KennyR

Catching up with your response.
Editing this response.

Where exactly do you get this idea that OS4 will be an unstoppable market when it comes out?

Not unstoppable in the broad sense, I am not foolish enough to think it will take the world by storm, but the A1/OS4 solution is sure to reinvigorate the platform far more than the Pegasos could ever hope for.

There are currently only 1000 or so A1 users and this will be very lucky to get to 2000.

Where exactly do you get this idea that OS4 will NOT be an unstoppable market when it comes out?
I think 1000 A1 users without an OS specially built for the hardware speaks for itself. The wiff of OS4 had these people purchasing A1s. Imagine when it actually arrives.

Worldwide, Amiga name is either completely unknown or a laughing stock.

First we get the previous owners who left the system. THEN THE WORLD!!!! MAHAHAHA!!!!

People aren't interested in an OS where badly behaved software can bring down the system.

So you're a windows user. OK. XP is better. Why all this self flagulation? What is wrong with you? Is Morphos getting you down already?

People aren't interested in hardware that will cost them a bomb yet still be seriously underpowered by modern standards.

That's why people were still buying Amiga hardware all these years I guess. Sigh!!! Why are you on this forum then. And you say I'm not helping. Sheesh!!!
The hardware, is what it is, and it can only grow from where it gets. The nice thing about Amiga hardware was that upgrading wasn't madatory. I didn't need an A3000 my A500 was fine. Get it!!! But I could still go and get a go faster board or an A4000. The power users will always be playing catch up and that is fine. Just give me the equivalent of the A500 for now and I'll be fine. That's all I want to see right now.

>>I think the whole point of the Amiga is that it is Amiga
>> compatible and if Morphos does not maintain
>> compatability with the official Amiga Operating System,
>> then why would you stick with Morphos except if you
>> already own one.
>Because MorphOS is MORE compatible with the original >AmigaOS than OS4 is!

You're going to have to face facts that OS4 is the official AmigaOS. If its less compatable than Morphos than the original OS4 right now it most likely wont be for long. If its a problem then I am sure there are other alternatives to get the app running via OS4 just as there would be for MorphOS.

[Karlos]

KennyR wrote:
Worldwide, Amiga name is either completely unknown or a laughing stock.

I'm no Amiga Inc. fan (who is these days?), but I'd be willing to bet the Amiga name is much more widely recognised (regardless of in good or bad sense) than Genesi/Pegasos/Morphos is.

If, as you state, Amiga is a largely unknown laughing stock, what does that say for Peg/MOS, the main point of which is that it is compatible with Amiga?

[Seehund]

BigBenAussie wrote:

However, the Amiga One will eventually be released as THE AMIGA [snip]

The Pegasos, through no fault of its own, actually subverts this public legitimacy from happening, and I would imagine there are a lot of people out there that feel the same way.

The "legitimacy" of "THE AMIGA" is subverted by the simple fact that there is no and will be no more Amiga. AmigaOS is supposed to be running on hardware that third parties bring along to sell under trademark licenses, remember?

It's subverted by the fact that the "AmigaOne" trademark that's currently licensed by Eyetech for distributing Teron motherboards means absolutely nothing at all with regards to the hardware. There's no specification for Amiga hardware. There's no Amiga reference design. Contrary to what the ridiculous excuses for the licensing scheme once said, the hardware that's currently sold hasn't passed any quality, compatibility, or any other kind of certification of AInc's to earn the label. The inane gibberish about "guaranteed supplies", "support", "protection against price gouging" et c. has all turned out to be the pure spucatum tauri (ed: don't throw "bleeps" at me, xoops! ) that many saw it was from the very beginning. It's been proven again and again, for each new piece of hardware that has been introduced (sometimes only being in a planning stage is sufficient to earn the label) and/or discontinued as an "AmigaOne". Then it turns out that the "AmigaOne" trademark (the one that's erroneously marketed as "the new Amiga" on e.g. the licensor's own website) actually BELONGS to the hardware dealer that invented the scheme and is the only distributor of licensed hardware.

The only tangible thing that the "AmigaOne" trademark has meant so far is "antiquated and dysfunctional (or discontinued, or not yet available) hardware that's a sh*tload more expensive than the exact same hardware sold without the license".

And this is what AmigaOS has been tied to, not by technical requirements, driver development issues or any other valid reason, but simply because an irrelevant (to AmigaOS) hardware retailer thought it would be nice to out of nothing invent an "Amiga hardware market" to control when his (or Escena's) attempts to actually build a new Amiga failed, and apparently because AInc couldn't give a damn about AmigaOS to simply say "no" to this retailer's idea.

The Amiga One is our only hope at becoming a mainstream platform again.

I nominate that for the "most bizarre statement of the year" category, even though it's only March.

AInc/Eyetech pretending that there's a reason for us to only buy "Amigas" from "Amiga dealers" is what sadly has turned AmigaOS4 (and "all future versions of AmigaOS") into a waste of time. At least if anyone was hoping to increase, or at least stop the shrinking of, the AmigaOS userbase.

[Dan]

KennyR wrote:
 Worldwide, Amiga name is either completely unknown

The pc-kids who has braindamage from playing to much first person shooters doesn´t count, neither does certified microsoft office nerds!

or a laughing stock.

Amiga Inc isn´t even that known!

No, it´s known as the 80s homecomputer with great graphics and smooth scrolling.Amiga=A500 in most peoples minds.

[matt3k]

I agree.

I will order OS4 and an Aone, once the OS is available.

I now have a Peg II, haven't set it up yet (to busy!).

I tried reading both sides of this 'war' and couldn't take a side, I found questionable practices on both sides.  I could even argue that Commodore had questionable practices, but those practices weren't enough to prevent me from purchasing Amigas (and even their stock, any buyers out there :-)).  I also found questionable practices with Verizon, my dsl provider and other business that I have some interest in.  Each person has to be a judge if a company has stepped beyond a moral principle and whether they wish to be a part of it or not. I will not support companies that fund organizations that I'm against and that is easy to monitor, I can't monitor who is the CEO and what he does (within reason).

I simply wanted to run my Amiga apps and have some fun, when I could find a little time.  Share my knowledge to assist others in need and have, God willing, an enjoyable life with my family.  

I believe the destructive comments aren't helping the Amiga community.  The lawsuits being resolved are beyond our control, and we may never know all the facts.  If both sides never come together but, at least do their best to support their community then we have something.

Matt

[Doobrey]

KennyR wrote:

Not unless they can get cheaper hardware.

 I`m with you on that one Kenny, I`m just waiting to see the price of the MicroA1 (or whatever it`s called!),cos there`s no way in hell I`m paying the current asking price of the AmigaOne, no matter how good OS4 turns out. If it`s anymore than £250 then I won`t bother, it`ll either be a PegII or a Mac for me.

 It`s not just me,the other day a "PC mad" mate saw the news of the OS4 sale on slashdot, he read it and followed up a few links to try and find out what was so good about it and why I`m still "an amiga nutcase" (his words!).
 He said he was almost interested until he saw the price, then when he found out that price was just motherboard&CPU he just laughed.
 If other non-amiga users are like this, how is the market supposed to grow?

[Seehund]

Doobrey wrote:

 If other non-amiga users are like this, how is the market supposed to grow?

I suppose you already know of one suggestion?


Another suggestion seems to be "if someone sticks an Amiga label on hardware X, then people will forget about silly things like price or performance", combined with "everyone will want to buy our OS and Amiga stickers to sell their hardware with".

(Figuratively speaking of course; for $300 extra you don't even get a steenkin' sticker to put on your box.)

[downix]

@Doobrey

Um, they began selling the MicroA1 awhile back, it came in more expensive than the A1 IIRC.

[KennyR]

BigBenAussie wrote:
Not unstoppable in the broad sense, I am not foolish enough to think it will take the world by storm, but the A1/OS4 solution is sure to reinvigorate the platform far more than the Pegasos could ever hope for.

The Amiga name is the only advantage they have. They aren't going to invigorate a thing unless they open up the market. That means better customer choice.

Where exactly do you get this idea that OS4 will NOT be an unstoppable market when it comes out?
I think 1000 A1 users without an OS specially built for the hardware speaks for itself. The wiff of OS4 had these people purchasing A1s. Imagine when it actually arrives.

As you can see from some of the replies here, Amigans are not exactly queuing up for an A1. You'll find much more positive support of the A1 on AmigaWorld - but most of those supporters already have one, either owned or preordered.

There isn't going to be an explosion of sales of the A1. Even without Genesi to take a chunk of the A1's potential userbase, the sad truth is the A1 is just too expensive for the risk. It would get away with it if it had better support and more users, but it doesn't.

So you're a windows user. OK. XP is better. Why all this self flagulation? What is wrong with you? Is Morphos getting you down already?

I use MorphOS 99% of the time, but that's not the point. I couldn't advise someone who's never used AmigaOS to try it. My family couldn't cope if some app crashed and took down the whole system. They couldn't cope with limited Amiga browsers.

The Amigalike OS's and AmigaOS itself are for Amiga lovers only. People may like their speed at first sight, but once they've been crashed and lost work a few times or been told that "there's no software to do that" a few times, suddenly they get a lot less keen.

First we get the previous owners who left the system. THEN THE WORLD!!!! MAHAHAH

Have you ever met any ex-Amigans now using Windows or Linux? They can be the most anti-Amiga people on the planet. They look at AmigaOS with nothing but scorn.

And for the reasons above, not many new users are going to be tempted into spending a very large amount of money on an OS just not suited to them. It's just the way it is.

The hardware, is what it is, and it can only grow from where it gets. The nice thing about Amiga hardware was that upgrading wasn't madatory. I didn't need an A3000 my A500 was fine. Get it!!! But I could still go and get a go faster board or an A4000. The power users will always be playing catch up and that is fine. Just give me the equivalent of the A500 for now and I'll be fine. That's all I want to see right now.

And that's fine with me too. A G3 is pathetic by modern standards but I love it. But I paid about $300 for the Pegasos motherboard, not $800. I was actually planning to get an A1, but the constant delaying of OS4 and the ever-climbing price of the A1 made me promise myself in 2002: if it gets to Autumn 2003 and there is no OS4, I will buy a Pegasos. The deadline came and I got one. I wasn't tempted by Genesi propaganda. I was repelled by the state of affairs in the OS4 camp and it's continuing slide into dogma .

And there are perhaps thousands like me. Unless something is sorted out, and I mean SOON, OS4 will lose all these potential customers to the Pegasos, the PC, and the Mac.

You're going to have to face facts that OS4 is the official AmigaOS.

It doesn't matter to me one bit any more. It's everything I wanted from a PPC AmigaOS. For me, this is the real new AmigaOS.

[BigBenAussie]

Oh, don't think for a second that I don't agree that all the companies involved have acted inappropriately in regards to the greater community.

However, as we stand now, and as far as they are willing to bend, I'll still have that A1 please. We are where we are and whatever the companies have done in the past, there is nowhere else to go. It could be worse.

I would like to remind you that Apple also was going to let people develop clones and stopped them. And whatever happened to IBM's powerPC initiative, its gone by the wayside. Did people actually make any? Where are they? IBM come out in support of Eyetech, like "Wow, somebody actually built one". I think its hard enough to get people to make the hardware as it is for an established platform let alone for an alternative platform like Amiga.

>> The Amiga One is our only hope at becoming a mainstream platform again.
> I nominate that for the "most bizarre statement of the year" category, even though it's only March.

GOOD!!! Go for it. Because I am totally behind that statement. You got a better hope??? Name it???

But none of this mainstream recognition is going to happen until the Amiga is released as a switch on and go box, rather than a motherboard that only the geeks know how to put together. Most people don't want to screw around with all that rubbish. I want a sleek standard ready built box with an A1 in it. And not PC tower either. How are we going to differentiate ourselves if it just looks like any other bit of hardware?

[Doobrey]

downix wrote:
@Doobrey

Um, they began selling the MicroA1 awhile back, it came in more expensive than the A1 IIRC.

 Yeah, but that was just a small production run for (developers and testing etc), so that`ll push the price up until they do it for real.

[Karlos]

KennyR wrote:

My family couldn't cope if some app crashed and took down the whole system.

Tragic. Families can be so unsupportive at times...

"Look Kenny, we supported you when you became a radical left winger. We supported you through thick and thin.
But now that app crashed the system. It't too much! We're beside ourselves! Dad's hit the bottle, you sis has ran away to god knows where..."

:lol:

[Damion]

@BigBenAussie

Except name recognition "in itself" guarantees absolutely nothing...

What is amiga remembered as, anyway, amongst those even old enough
to remember it? An 80's gamez platform?? Toaster 2000"s? Random
vaporware awards? I'm going to say most amiga owners didn't
even assosiate 'amiga' with "OS"...that is, how many A500 owners
(which were likely the majority 'out there') even did anything with
the OS to remember it by, other than boot up cracked xcopy?

And you expect these same individuals to get excited enough to
buy $800 sub-1GHz G4 boards, for completely different reasons even??
When they can play UT2004 at half the price for a complete system??

I think "either" OS has advantages/disadvantages purely in regard
to their names...one has practically no recognition in the
mainstream, yet has "hip" labelling and a "catchy" desktop, whilst
the other DOES have limited outside recognition, but could be viewed
as yesterday's throwaway/dinosaur. So I'd say the tables are pretty much
even in those respects...

So if we were to consider that the majority of the market eventually needed
to sustain either platform likely has never even heard of "either"
name, which one has a better advantage, from that angle? Hmmm...I can
hear it now...

"'Omegas', WTF is that, dog?? Oh, Amiga? Is it from Mexico? But whoa, check this
out...MorphOS...Ambient..Trance..etc...hey, that sounds pretty cool"

(this scenario is totally made up BTW...and probably not realistic)

Anyways, getting emotional over a name is something I can't even relate
with...I buy (and bought) computers based primarily upon technical and
economic merits, "hobbies" are dead last, and always the most difficult
to justify financially. Few are those who will pay ridiculous prices
for outdated hardware bearing "the name" of a defunct 80's games platform.
   
To  wrap  it  up, this whole idea that the throngs are going to exclaim
"OMG WTF" and purchase millions of 800 MHz Eyetech boards just
to run OS4 (and it's overwhelming apps base) is not only downright
ludicrous...but possibly even a little "kooky".

At this stage though this discussion is basically pointless...'BOTH" platforms
are going to have to innovate well beyond their currrent status in order to
gain marketshare, no retarded-ass "product label" is going to do it for them.
 

[BigBenAussie]

@-D-

I agree with most of what you said.

People don't even associate an OS with Amiga.
Absolutely friggin correct. The allure of the Amiga is something else entirely.

But these people have grown up now. They want to play games ofcourse and do other things too that require an OS. I never said that OS4 is a draw for newbies to an Amiga, in fact, it provides the barest minimum. But in terms of leisure computing that may well be enough.

I see the Amiga platform as being more of a grownups console. The kids are going to buy your X-Box2s and PS3s but the grownups are going to look at an alternative and they will have grown up with one. They will consider the Amiga as a hobby computer, as microcomputers were once considered. If we can get a decent browser going and a few decent games we'll have a start. Make it play and burn DVDs in a settop box and we'll have a tangible media center system. That's where its gotta go, multimedia is the revolution that it started.

But its gotta be slick damn it, even if it is underpowered. And if you care that much about playing your games faster, just pull out the 3d card and chuck another one in. People that care, spend more on them than entire consoles, and these are probably the people that will buy an Amiga despite the exorbitant cost.

You guys are in a different realm to where the Amiga needs to ultimately go. You're power users. The newbies wont care to be at least initially. They would be buying the system for the differentiation that it offers.

I know it seems like a weird thing to say but speed is becoming much less the defining issue in a computer. The slump in PC sales of late caused by lack in demand, is due to what I believe there being no tangible difference in perceived performance, is what I think caused it. A slower specced Amiga will feel choppier than a higher specced PC box right? So the OS has a natural advantage. But as I contended at the start of this post. The OS is not important. Its the platform and the name and if that is not the case with you, then go buy a peg. I'm not stopping you.

My vision for the Amiga is different. Sometimes I wonder if you're all too close to it to see it.