Be friends! Please!... Amiga and Genesi! I love you both!, but...

[BigBenAussie]

@-D-

I agree with most of what you said.

People don't even associate an OS with Amiga.
Absolutely friggin correct. The allure of the Amiga is something else entirely.

But these people have grown up now. They want to play games ofcourse and do other things too that require an OS. I never said that OS4 is a draw for newbies to an Amiga, in fact, it provides the barest minimum. But in terms of leisure computing that may well be enough.

I see the Amiga platform as being more of a grownups console. The kids are going to buy your X-Box2s and PS3s but the grownups are going to look at an alternative and they will have grown up with one. They will consider the Amiga as a hobby computer, as microcomputers were once considered. If we can get a decent browser going and a few decent games we'll have a start. Make it play and burn DVDs in a settop box and we'll have a tangible media center system. That's where its gotta go, multimedia is the revolution that it started.

But its gotta be slick damn it, even if it is underpowered. And if you care that much about playing your games faster, just pull out the 3d card and chuck another one in. People that care, spend more on them than entire consoles, and these are probably the people that will buy an Amiga despite the exorbitant cost.

You guys are in a different realm to where the Amiga needs to ultimately go. You're power users. The newbies wont care to be at least initially. They would be buying the system for the differentiation that it offers.

I know it seems like a weird thing to say but speed is becoming much less the defining issue in a computer. The slump in PC sales of late caused by lack in demand, is due to what I believe there being no tangible difference in perceived performance, is what I think caused it. A slower specced Amiga will feel choppier than a higher specced PC box right? So the OS has a natural advantage. But as I contended at the start of this post. The OS is not important. Its the platform and the name and if that is not the case with you, then go buy a peg. I'm not stopping you.

My vision for the Amiga is different. Sometimes I wonder if you're all too close to it to see it.

[Damion]

@BigBenAussie

OK, I see your point now...and I do agree, image sells. I don't however
believe (at this stage) that one has any major advantage over the other
in this department, but whichever can market themselves as a "progressive"
alternative and offer a reasonable featureset could stand a decent chance.

Part of that image (since they've gone the effort aready) is going to
be for both to finish the job, and start selling complete, factory
branded systems at a realistic price. Boards are OK for the extreme
hobbyist, but the average "alternative" buyer probably is going to want to
feel as though they're buying into "something more".

Its the platform and the name and if that is not the case with you, then go buy a peg.
I'm not stopping you.

I did, and I don't regret it one bit. I put a lot of time and thought into
how I was going to piece it together...and it sort of allows you somewhat
the feeling of creating *your own* image, everything from the case configuration
and some components, to the extreme customization abilities of the interface thanks
to MUI. But for the mainstream, you're 100% correct. Most people want to purchase
into a type of ideal, while feeling as though they've excercised in the process
some virtue of "choice" or "freedom". Something a little more pre-packaged (and
polished) is probably necessary, and that's not at all a bad thing, it's likely
the only way (outside of landing major contracts as hardware providers) that
either can succeed, at least with the routes they've chosen.

[Waccoon]

full backwards compatibility with 68k on x86 is impossible, as the AROS team will tell you.

PowerPC isn't binary compatible with 68K.  I used some of the first PowerPC Macs in existence which used 68K emulation, and they were absolutely the slowest computers on the planet.  If you have to emulate 68K code, what difference does the new CPU make?  Besides, Amiga programmers were brutal to the hardware, so you kind of have to sandbox everything, anyway.

Don't tell me magical x86 chipsets doesn't suffer from bugs - even mass produced, widely used ones. For instance my PC *still* BSODs every six hours or so due to its buggy VIA VT chipset. And the better chipsets are jealously guarded and developer support is non-existent. Even on linux support is poor and patchy.

I thought all Linux systems were like that.  Kinda makes you wonder how the other hundred-or-so embedded x86 OSes in the world stay in business.  Besides, no serious engineer uses VIA -- except Eyetech and Genesi, of course.

The Amigalike OS's and AmigaOS itself are for Amiga lovers only. People may like their speed at first sight, but once they've been crashed and lost work a few times or been told that "there's no software to do that" a few times, suddenly they get a lot less keen.

Precisely my feelings on AROS.

[KennyR]

Wacoon wrote:
PowerPC isn't binary compatible with 68K. I used some of the first PowerPC Macs in existence which used 68K emulation, and they were absolutely the slowest computers on the planet. If you have to emulate 68K code, what difference does the new CPU make?

Endianness.

For instance, a PPC AmigaOS can use emulated libs in a native app and vice versa. A x86 one never can. That means you could run IBrowse on a UAE layer in AROS, but not with native x86 Zune - you'd have to use emulated old 68k MUI libs too. Ask the AROS team the difficulties.

...I thought all Linux systems were like that. Kinda makes you wonder how the other hundred-or-so embedded x86 OSes in the world stay in business.

They get driver binaries.

[bhoggett]

KennyR wrote:
Endianness.

For instance, a PPC AmigaOS can use emulated libs in a native app and vice versa. A x86 one never can. That means you could run IBrowse on a UAE layer in AROS, but not with native x86 Zune - you'd have to use emulated old 68k MUI libs too. Ask the AROS team the difficulties.

It depends on the environment. Amithlon can use x86 native binaries that call emulated 68k libs, and it can expose native x86 drivers to 68k applications.

It's not an issue when at least one environment is designed to work in conjunction with the other. For AROS it is a problem, because it was never designed to be able to use emulated 68k libraries, nor was it designed to expose AROS native libraries to emulated apps.

[Kronos]

@bhoggett

Thats only partly true .....

With Amithlon you get 2 choices:
a) compile Linux-gcc, and to a partial link.
+ : maximum performance
- : different endians in 68k and x86-code, no way to call
AmigaOS-functions from the x86-side
Pretty much like coding for PuP.

b) Martin Bloom's gcc:
+ : it feels like and does what every other Amiga-compiler would feel like and do.
- : performance penalty. No C++-support (AFAIK).

So, no Amithlon is NO way to a fully native x86-AOS, it does
come close, but no cigar.

[restore2003]

@kennyR:

Have you ever met any ex-Amigans now using Windows or Linux? They can be the most anti-Amiga people on the planet. They look at AmigaOS with nothing but scorn.

As always your just blabbering about something you have no clue about, just because you have a high post count doesnt mean that everyone should take your statements and opinions seriously.

You know perfectly clear that there are great number of ex amigans sitting on the fence, using win xp or whatever, waiting for something to happen.

And just because you ran into a couple of angry and disgruntled ex amiga users who switch OS, they`re not the average Joe Q. Public ex amiga user, now using win xp.

[KennyR]

restore2003:
As always your just blabbering about something you have no clue about, just because you have a high post count doesnt mean that everyone should take your statements and opinions seriously.

You know perfectly clear that there are great number of ex amigans sitting on the fence, using win xp or whatever, waiting for something to happen.

And I know there is an even bigger number of them who scoff at the Amiga, and know all its weaknesses so are great at using them to criticise it. You'll have to trust me on this, I've spoken to *many* on IRC. OSNews and Slashdot are usually full of them too. The moment they leave their Amigas for a PC or Mac they seem to suddenly believe that the Amiga was the ultimate in crapness, because it can't do . There are lots too, like Bill and Waccoon here, who are simply not happy with PPC hardware and will never return unless Amiga's direction changes to x86. Other reasons for other people include lack of software, lack of memory protection, lack of games, lack of hardware...you get the picture.

There's no vast sea of undecideds out there. That's a myth, and if you believe it then it'll bite you in the bitter end.

[odin]

Oh...just stop generalising will you.

[KennyR]

We judge by our experiences.

[kgrach]

@kennyR

Sorry Kenny people like you are one of MorpOS's main stumbling blocks. Many people helped build this wall but you Kronos and a few others brought in the heavy equipment.

KennyR MorphOS NEEDS THE AMIGA NAME.

Almost every major Article about MorphOS includes the Amiga Name.

No KennyR what you and a few others never realized is that by dragging the Amiga name through the Mud you dumped manure on MorphOS. More Pegasos and Amiga Machines would have been sold if people like you didn't make such an huge effort to troll through the news groups spreading a great deal of miss information.

The reason I Mention you and Kronos is because you two are the main names people give me as the reason they left the community or outsiders who look at the Amiga AND MORPHOS with disdain...

A very few people get that kind of notoriety I hope you are proud of yourself because NOBODY else is.

I don't like to attack people personally but It reached boiling point this weekend when I received a few emails from Agencies who BTW  I was trying to interest in Pegosos products. They checked the web and I guess stumbled across some of your prodigious postings. They suggested I come up with some other platform.


kgrach

[Ryu]

okay people, lets cool it right now, before things start getting out of hand.

[KennyR]

No, MorphOS doesn't need the Amiga name. It needs a big market, more users, more developers, modern hardware, advertising. With all of that, it could go far. With only an Amiga name, it would simply be a niche system with the Amiga name with no users. There are no inherent magical powers in this name. So far, the name hasn't really effected the people choosing to buy a cheaper Pegasos over an A1, has it? It hasn't got people who want x86 to buy one either, has it?

People buy the best deal they can get, period. Name is secondary, unless you're into high fashion.

I don't like to attack people personally but It reached boiling point this weekend when I received a few emails from Agencies who BTW I was trying to interest in Pegosos products. They checked the web and I guess stumbled across some of your prodigious postings. They suggested I come up with some other platform.

Yeah, right. :lol: Like all that anti-Windows and anti-Linux stuff on the web and all its much nastier fanatics have damaged support for either platform. I could even point you to AW for some much more hardline pro-OS4 material. I find your claim very unlikely.

[restore2003]

And I know there is an even bigger number of them who scoff at the Amiga, and know all its weaknesses so are great at using them to criticise it. You'll have to trust me on this, I've spoken to *many* on IRC. OSNews and Slashdot are usually full of them too. The moment they leave their Amigas for a PC or Mac they seem to suddenly believe that the Amiga was the ultimate in crapness, because it can't do . There are lots too, like Bill and Waccoon here, who are simply not happy with PPC hardware and will never return unless Amiga's direction changes to x86. Other reasons for other people include lack of software, lack of memory protection, lack of games, lack of hardware...you get the picture.

How many have you actually spoken to? Let me tell you something, 4 millions or more amigas were sold, some estimate that around 100000 are still interrested at some point, most check into amiga.com, just to see what direction the platform is heading, around 6% of those are you and me,  posting at various forums and etc.  and are involved at some point in the community.

 

[itix]

Those ex-Amigans are not coming back. There is no reason to do so. Even if Peg or A1 was sold @ 50 eur per unit they would not come back. It is not only money issue, it is also software issue and almost noone knows there is MOS/OS4.

Reality: MOS and OS4 communities are and stay small.

[Hammer]

No, MorphOS doesn't need the Amiga name. It needs a big market, more users, more developers, modern hardware, advertising. With all of that, it could go far.

Notice the recent "server watch" news still recognizes Amiga name as an example.

So far, the name hasn't really effected the people choosing to buy a cheaper Pegasos over an A1, has it??

IF that was the case, Pegasos HW should have romped home over Eyetech's relatively expensive A1-XE/A1-SE.

It hasn't got people who want x86 to buy one either, has it?

In terms of brand name; the Amiga brand name is simply been crashed by the titans of brand names e.g.
- Intel (Pentium, "Intel Inside"),
- AMD (Athlon, "64bit X86", "AMD Me, "Superior Windows engine"),
- Microsoft (Windows),
- Lindows,
- Dell, HP, VIA, SUN and ‘etc’ .

Support infrastructure is another issue e.g. ISV, education/training, channel support, tools chain, middleware, application/MIS solution providers and etc.