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AuthorTopic: Request about OS Development  (Read 8120 times)

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Offline Hans_

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2017, 01:01:54 AM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;833450
That's pretty funny because people pay a LOT of $$ for OS4 and NG hardware yet both are  still stuck in 2003.  OS4 has rough feature parity with Windows 98 and I have cell phones that outperform NG PPC hardware.  So yep, that's right, charging boutique prices for OS4 and its hardware hasn't panned out like you suggest.
Where did I suggest "charging boutique prices for OS4 and its hardware?" I didn't use those words anywhere, nor did I imply it.

I'm simply pointing out that money could in fact help... if you found a suitable source of funds and used it for full-time "focused development with well thought out priorities." Where exactly you get those funds from is beside the point.

Hans
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2017, 01:31:27 AM »
From my perspective AmigaOS4.x doesn't bring nothing new to my "Amiga" experience (sure, it is nice, there are few other things, I will share my experience later). ALL software I want/can use was written for AmigaOS3.x and actually it works even WORST under AmigaOS4.1 (glitches etc.). Sure, there is few games, "new" calendar... etc. There is no any software that "needs" AmigaOS4.x. Only difference between OS3.x and OS4.x is NEW hardware (expensive and "if" available), so system is faster, but from productivity point of view not much changed in last 10 years of OS4.x.

I have no idea why PPC was selected as a future CPU for AmigaOS, AmigaOS4.x is NOT "compatible" with any AmigaOS3.x software (as far as I can tell)! What would be a problem to "emulate" compatibility in the same way as today on AmigaOS4.x but do this on intel CPUs?

Sure, someone invested 10+ years of work/money into AmigaOS4.x, but it looks for me as a DEAD end, in next 10 years PPC will be obsolete and AmigaHW WILL be dead with it.

Considering that AmigaOS is super niche system, we should have HW platform that is CHEAP and AVAILABLE. AmigaOS should be like a virus that can be installed on the most common "host" to create base of users that will be attached to SYSTEM, no hardware.

Ask how many MacOS users cares about intel CPU vs. PPC vs. Motorola, not many. During AmiWest I heard that best Amiga to UAE Amiga...
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2017, 01:56:06 AM »
Quote from: Hans_;833451
Where did I suggest "charging boutique prices for OS4 and its hardware?" I didn't use those words anywhere, nor did I imply it.

I'm simply pointing out that money could in fact help... if you found a suitable source of funds and used it for full-time "focused development with well thought out priorities." Where exactly you get those funds from is beside the point.

Hans

My point is that there won't be any funding sizable enough to sustain one's lifestyle let alone enough revenue to create a sustainable business when it comes to the Amiga and its legacy.  Hyperion has been on life support for years.  And even the Vampire finds its appeal limited to original Amiga enthusiasts so there's no market to be had beyond those folks who have already owned classic Amigas and look to replace or enhance their aging systems.  To believe that Amigas will somehow go mainstream (classic or NG) in the future and support businesses with programmers writing new and useful apps is simply delusional.  The Amiga is dead, both the 68K and PPC varieties.   So all this talk about people needing to pay up and support Amiga programmers and businesses is a bit ridiculous.  You'll have about the same level of success convincing people to pay for apps being written for MS-DOS.

As for money helping, I'd counter that the money would be there if there were compelling products that people actually wanted to buy.  Delivery dates missed by years and broken promises doesn't instill consumer confidence, so prospective buyers take their money elsewhere.  Yes, I'm talking about device drivers, office suites, multi-user security, modern web browsers that support SSL, SMP, 64-bit support, etc....until OS4 steps into the 21st century its user base will continue to shrink to where even the fanatics here won't buy it anymore.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 02:08:35 AM by ferrellsl »
 

Offline Papa6

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2017, 04:58:26 AM »
I never intended to upset anyone. this is just a thought I had is all.
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2017, 06:01:02 AM »
Quote from: Papa6;833463
I never intended to upset anyone. this is just a thought I had is all.

I don't think anyone is upset here.  We just have differing opinions.  With the exception of 3-4 people on this site, most are great people and I respect their opinions even though I may disagree with those opinions.

The ones who upset me are those who can't offer any constructive criticisms or support their own opinions with any type of logic so they start calling other people names.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2017, 06:24:27 AM »
Quote from: LoadWB;833414
Obviously there's a difference in man-power and funding, but has anyone done an analysis of how Apple moved MacOS from PPC to Intel and the application of those ideas to AmigaOS?


Apple never did this "move", the OS was running on Intel since NeXTStep days. It was ported *from* Intel *to* PowerPC through the days of Rhapsody, released as OSX once port was done. And for how many years was OSX as product PowerPC only? Very few, just enough for third party developers to move away from old MacOS.
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A600/Apollo630/32MB
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A500/MTec520
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Offline pVC

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2017, 06:37:05 AM »
Quote from: LoadWB;833398
Eh, PPC doesn't run 680x0 natively, does it?  Doesn't MorphOS and AmigaOS4 have an emulation layer for this?  Why can't AROS?

MorphOS and OS4 only emulate the CPU, but nothing else. They are otherwise API compatible with AmigaOS 3 and old software run under PPC native OS without recompiling. Old programs use PPC native libraries, GUI toolkits, etc, which makes them really fast comparing to UAE environments that emulate the whole Amiga machines/OS/components. This kind of solution is only possible efficiently because PPC and 68k have the same endianness, and that's not the case with x86/x64.

On AROS (x86) you have to use UAE based solution for classic software. It is slower because it emulates the whole machine, and what is worst in my opinion, is that 68k programs run isolated from the main OS. You can't use 68k libraries, device drivers, shell commands, etc under AROS like you can do with MorphOS/OS4. Programs can't interact with ARexx etc.

On AROS you have to re-compile everything you want to run under AROS itself, and I think that's the main point why AROS had so slow start despite the lead of years, because there just weren't source codes available for all you need. On MorphOS and OS4 we had to use a lot of 68k binaries to fill the gaps on native software selection. Nowadays less, but I still use pretty much 68k stuff in my everyday system. But without this kind of transparent integrated compatibility MorphOS and OS4 wouldn't have got anywhere ever, and it's still what appeals many people and makes these operating systems feel like real continuity to classic Amiga, and not being just yet another UAE boxes.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 06:41:09 AM by pVC »
Daily MorphOS user and Amiga active.
 

Offline Kronos

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Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2017, 02:58:46 PM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;833419

Funny how Linux is free and it's been ported to every architecture under the sun.....


Take any given HW that does not have a financial interest behind it and see how fast things fall apart.....


Linux may be free to use, but very little of it is actually done for free.
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2017, 06:39:57 PM »
Quote from: LoadWB;833428
I simply asked if anyone had done an analysis of what Apple did and realistically applied it to what could or would need to be done with AmigaOS.


The first thing they did was write an emulator, the first version http://apple.wikia.com/wiki/System_7.1.2 only contained 10% native code.

You'd start with a UEFI bootable x64 68k emulator which only emulates the hardware well enough for os legal software to work.

Then allow the emulator access to real hardware and start writing replacements for things like serial.device, scsi.device etc and use Remus to create a custom kickstart.

You hit problems running native code if you want to target little endian (x86/x64) which apple didn't have to deal with for the PowerPC versions of MacOS. So you'd need to build a compiler that deals with it (you're essentially recreating Amithlon)

When they switched to intel they threw out MacOS and replaced it with MacOSX. This it the equivalent of installing Linux with an Amiga themed window manager and running AROS Hosted on it.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2017, 09:30:19 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;833489


When they (Apple) switched to intel they threw out MacOS and replaced it with MacOSX. This it the equivalent of installing Linux with an Amiga themed window manager and running AROS Hosted on it.


Which is exactly what should have happened to the Amiga 20 years ago.

Offline Rob

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2017, 09:32:44 PM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;833432
Interestingly enough, AROS, both the x86_64 and 68K versions, were also written for free.  So again, if anyone thinks money is the cure for the Amiga's ills, they're sorely mistaken.

I wonder what USB support would be like on AROS were it not for the nearly $4000 given to Chris Hodges to port Poseidon to AROS i386.
 

Offline Rob

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2017, 09:38:05 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;833493
Which is exactly what should have happened to the Amiga 20 years ago.


It would have if Amiga International hadn't  blown the deal with QSSL.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2017, 12:46:27 AM »
Quote from: Kronos;833477
Take any given HW that does not have a financial interest behind it and see how fast things fall apart.....


Linux may be free to use, but very little of it is actually done for free.


Got any example of such an architecture?
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---
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A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
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Offline kolla

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2017, 12:52:15 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;833489

When they switched to intel they threw out MacOS and replaced it with MacOSX. This it the equivalent of installing Linux with an Amiga themed window manager and running AROS Hosted on it.


Again, no. OS-X was when porting *to* PowerPC was finished, not porting to Intel. Sigh.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM460 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2017, 01:42:27 AM »
Quote from: kolla;833497
Got any example of such an architecture?


AMD pays their own developers to work on the Radeon drivers & Linux kernel for their hardware. IBM pays developers for the Power architecture. Intel also has an open source team.

The organisations behind Linux distros like Red Hat & Ubuntu also pay developers to work on Linux (paid for by things such as enterprise support contracts).

Heck, Android is based on Linux and also has paid developers working on it.

A lot of money gets spent on Linux development.

Hans
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.