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AuthorTopic: Request about OS Development  (Read 8145 times)

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Offline ne_one

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2017, 02:02:53 AM »
Quote from: bloodline;833493
Which is exactly what should have happened to the Amiga 20 years ago.


And exactly what should still happen.

We've heard the same non-sensical arguments about endian orientation, preserving compatibility, limited resources, lack of qualified developers, non-existent funding and how alternative solutions relegate AmigaOS to the scrapheap for 2 decades.

In the meantime, a significant amount of money has been invested in developing the A1222, X1000 and X5000 - all of which are outdated, expensive and have suffered significant shortfalls in software support.

If you peel back the litany of excuses it ultimately comes down to two things: fraudulence and ineptitude.
 

guest11527

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Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2017, 10:57:00 AM »
Quote from: ne_one;833503
In the meantime, a significant amount of money has been invested in developing the A1222, X1000 and X5000 - all of which are outdated, expensive and have suffered significant shortfalls in software support.
Yes, and I personally never quite understood this move. Just for the records. The people the build the hardware are not the same that worked on the software. The problem is that the market is too small to create a competative hardware that is cost-efficient, So in essence, switching the architecture "pulled the rug" under the development. Not enough users because the hardware was too expensive, and the hardware was so expensive because there are not enough users.

Quote from: ne_one;833503
If you peel back the litany of excuses it ultimately comes down to two things: fraudulence and ineptitude.
It's a little bit more complicated than that.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2017, 12:47:24 PM »
Quote from: kolla;833499
Again, no. OS-X was when porting *to* PowerPC was finished, not porting to Intel. Sigh.

You're a drama queen, my point is valid. MacOS X always ran on Intel, they just didn't sell it. MacOS X was essentially a reskinned NextStep, it ran on x86 before it ran on PowerPC. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQaqDQx3Lo8

MacOS X didn't need 68k & x64 structures to be compatible as the 68k code was running in an emulator. In classic MacOS they were able to keep all memory structures compatible because they were both big endian CPUs.

Quote from: bloodline;833493
Which is exactly what should have happened to the Amiga 20 years ago.

AROS is more than 20 years old. It's biggest problem was that people hated x86 back then, people even made Intel Outside stickers. It was too late by the time the user base had conceded defeat on the CPU. Apple had the revenue, nobody else did.

The "if commodore had survived, they would have .... " argument is also kinda difficult to make. IMO if they had paid the xor patent fee so that they could import CD32 into the US and then be able to pay the factory who made them then they might have survived for a little longer. But the PlayStation would have eaten their lunch. Commodore didn't really know what to do after they launched the a500.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 01:15:52 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline kolla

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2017, 05:31:35 PM »
Quote from: Hans_;833502

A lot of money gets spent on Linux development.


Sure, but you kinda came with a reversed answer :)

I was interested in architectures that have lost kernel support due to lack of money.
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Offline kolla

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2017, 05:35:54 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;833512
MacOS X always ran on Intel, they just didn't sell it. MacOS X was essentially a reskinned NextStep, it ran on x86 before it ran on PowerPC.


Exactly, this time you got it right :)
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---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
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A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
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CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
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MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
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Offline psxphill

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2017, 09:39:50 PM »
Quote from: kolla;833518
Exactly, this time you got it right :)


So getting me to expand my answer for your pedantry was worthwhile?
 

Offline kolla

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2017, 05:08:43 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;833523
So getting me to expand my answer for your pedantry was worthwhile?


Sure, because what you said first was wrong, simple as that.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM460 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline wizzard_o

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2017, 07:13:32 AM »
Port OS4 to "#?" Processor arguments are moot, PPC = OS4, AROS = x86 & OS3 = 68K.

I have several Sun Sparc stations but do you hear me bleating on about porting OS4 to it, noooo.... :lol:

Wizz.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2017, 08:23:03 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;833422
You can get big endian PowerPC chips, you can't get big endian x64 chips.

It's possible to create an x64 compiler which deals with the endian conversion (bonus points if you can figure out how to make it only do the endian conversion for data that really matters).


Hi psxphill, if you read my earlier post, I link to my inline 68k emulator. Endian issues are annoying but not a huge problem. They simply require a translation layer. In my 68k emulator the emulated 68000 is allowed access to the x86 address space, when running on AROS, all the OS data structures an Amiga App running in that space expects to find will be present and so the App will run (just as it does on 68k AROS). The big problem comes when trying to run the 68000 App on a 64bit processor like the x86_64, then the Amiga App can only see the first 4gig of memory, but all the the OS data structures and even the Application itself could be anywhere in a multi terabyte address space (this is address space, not simply installed RAM)... so it will fail and there is no way around this.

The 68k Amiga is firmly trapped in a 32bit world.

Offline psxphill

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2017, 10:11:53 AM »
Quote from: bloodline;833534
when running on AROS, all the OS data structures an Amiga App running in that space expects to find will be present and so the App will run (just as it does on 68k AROS).

How do you solve the problem of

DWORD x=0x12345678;
char *y=hello";

char a = [(char *)&x)[0];
char b = y[0];

a is different on a big endian cpu to a little endian cpu.

Have you essentially created a little endian 68k so it will work with native AROS structures when accessing the data with the same size as it was defined? That might work in some situations, but it's trivial to create an example where it would fail.

[QUOTE="bloodline;833534]The big problem comes when trying to run the 68000 App on a 64bit processor like the x86_64, then the Amiga App can only see the first 4gig of memory, but all the the OS data structures and even the Application itself could be anywhere in a multi terabyte address space (this is address space, not simply installed RAM)... so it will fail and there is no way around this.

The 68k Amiga is firmly trapped in a 32bit world.[/QUOTE]

Where the OS structures are is irrelevant, they will contain 64 bit pointers so the offsets will be all wrong. You could however create an x32 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI AROS build.

This would have most of the benefits of x64 (see previous link) but still allow 68k code to run, potentially as well as legacy Power PC apps (if you write another emulator). If you have solved the endian issue (and I'm looking forward to your explanation) then you might be able to throw in a way of switching to x86 code as well as supporting this on x86 builds of AROS, otherwise you need an x32 big endian ABI.

You could create another method for allocating memory > 64gb for ramdisk & file system caches where you can guarantee the pointers won't need to be accessed outside the task. Which could be used on x32 builds and x86 builds using PAE.

Apple & Microsoft have gone through similar issues.

Also, how did you handle switching between x86->68k->x86 because it would be nice if exec/SetFunction could be used from both x86 & 68k code and have it be called transparently.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 10:23:13 AM by psxphill »
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2017, 05:11:46 PM »
What more to add, AmigaOS should run on PC without any type of emulation and populate any single PC like a virus, spread as much as possible. That way AmigaOS would become accessible for people. Cheap hardware would give it a chance. After that the REAL problem would be lack of any type of productivity software, but I would worry about this LATER, when I can run AmigaOS on my PC.

BUT situation above would be viable only when we start thinking about AmigaOS as system that actually is USEFUL for most of people, at this point AmigaOS is purely hobby. Considering prices of Amiga HW this type of expense will not be justified by anybody, but AmigaOS fanatics or alternative universe fans.
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guest11527

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Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2017, 06:12:24 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;833615
AmigaOS should run on PC without any type of emulation and populate any single PC like a virus, spread as much as possible.
And why exactly should it do that? Os development did not stop 25 years ago. AmigaOs is illl-designed for modern requirements. I always call it a "toy operating system" because it lacks any services that would be important today. Even if - the market works today different than it did 25 years ago.
Back then, computers were used by hobbyitsts, hackers, gamers, freaks... today, they are a commodity. You cannot expect a "modern user" to know what a .info file is, or how to "lay out" icons. It's all the wrong concept.


Quote from: kreciu;833615
That way AmigaOS would become accessible for people. Cheap hardware would give it a chance. After that the REAL problem would be lack of any type of productivity software, but I would worry about this LATER, when I can run AmigaOS on my PC.
Yeah, right. And this "worry about the pesky details later" approach was exactly the reason why the PPC experiment is right now where it is. "PPC is the future, let's worry about the applications later".

You need to understand that *today* the market works differently. Nobody worries about the hardware anymore. You have it anyhow. The apps are what matters. Commodity for the user. You don't buy a computer today because it is "cool hardware". You buy it because "it looks nice" and "it runs the stuff I need". It is reduced to things the average user understands: "How thin is it" (that is currently what people seem to want) and "does it do what I need".

AmigaOs cannot do that. The Amiga story as a "useful computer" ended last century already - as I say, this ship sailed away a long time ago.
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #57 on: November 29, 2017, 08:23:11 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;833617
And why exactly should it do that? Os development did not stop 25 years ago. AmigaOs is illl-designed for modern requirements. I always call it a "toy operating system" because it lacks any services that would be important today. Even if - the market works today different than it did 25 years ago.
Back then, computers were used by hobbyitsts, hackers, gamers, freaks... today, they are a commodity. You cannot expect a "modern user" to know what a .info file is, or how to "lay out" icons. It's all the wrong concept.


I know, but somewhere behind my head I have this sentiment that AmigaOS could takeover whole world :). I feel like 25 years ago when you actually could get Amiga500 in the store. It is somehow hard for me to think about AmigaOS as a pure "hobby" (even if it is for me... hobby!).

I actually did real work on my beloved A600 back in time.


Quote
Yeah, right. And this "worry about the pesky details later" approach was exactly the reason why the PPC experiment is right now where it is. "PPC is the future, let's worry about the applications later".


Really? From my perspective I did not see it, maybe from dev. perspective PPC was the future. I liked more AmigaOS, not necessarily as a best OS, but it was nice and CHEAP alternative to PC.

Quote
You need to understand that *today* the market works differently. Nobody worries about the hardware anymore. You have it anyhow. The apps are what matters. Commodity for the user. You don't buy a computer today because it is "cool hardware". You buy it because "it looks nice" and "it runs the stuff I need". It is reduced to things the average user understands: "How thin is it" (that is currently what people seem to want) and "does it do what I need".


Exactly, nobody cares about HW, but there is boatload of PC hardware and it will not go away "tommorow", and asking to pay $2000 for HW that can run AmigaOS in a relatively well is a LOT of money AND based on number of various motherboard revisions for AmigaOS4.x idea of having proprietary HW to run AmigaOS4.1 is simply BAD. Now, we have like few versions of AmigaOS4.1 for each HW? Strange.

OK. If not PC, why not to make it run on old MacPPC hardware. This "old" HW is way better  then NEW and I can get PowerMAC G5 as a scrap metal price. Wait. I have old completely unused iBookG4 in my storage. That move would not require 100% "rewrite" of AmigaOS. Is that right? So why not?

Quote
AmigaOs cannot do that. The Amiga story as a "useful computer" ended last century already - as I say, this ship sailed away a long time ago.


This is a statement, that depend on attitude of person saying it :). Let say idea of "useful computer" based on AmigaOS is gone.

Why can't I install AmigaOS on MacPPC? You just wrote that nobody cares about hardware they use. Apparently people who own rights for AmigaOS care about $2000 mobos that is slower(?) then PowerMAC G5  and promise hardware for months or years.

It is taking about 2 years to release A1222. How long it will take to adapt AmigaOS for MacMini, PowerMac etc. It is funny how MorphOS "jumped" on new AmigaOS hardware and somehow MorphOS dev. could adapt it FROM Mac to new HW, quite fast.

Linux on PowerMAC, simply great speed:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so35SrThHUs
« Last Edit: November 29, 2017, 08:49:02 PM by kreciu »
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Offline number6

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #58 on: November 29, 2017, 08:45:21 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;833618
OK. If not PC, why not to make it run on old MacPPC hardware. This "old" HW is way better  then NEW and I can get PowerMAC G5 as a scrap metal price. Wait. I have old completely unused iBookG4 in my storage. That move would not require 100% "rewrite" of AmigaOS. Is that right? So why not?

Why can't I install AmigaOS on MacPPC? You just wrote that nobody cares about hardware they use. Apparently people who own rights for AmigaOS care about $2000 mobos that is slower(?) then PowerMAC G5  and promise hardware for months or years.

It is taking about 2 years to release A1222. How long it will take to adapt AmigaOS for MacMini, PowerMac etc. It is funny how MorphOS "jumped" on new AmigaOS hardware and somehow MorphOS dev. could adapt it FROM Mac to new HW, quite fast.


Consider the possibility that contracts and agreements exist that, at this time, are still in place and need be honored.

#6
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #59 on: November 29, 2017, 08:50:54 PM »
Quote from: number6;833619
Consider the possibility that contracts and agreements exist that, at this time, are still in place and need be honored.

#6


IF that is true, then we can't do nothing about it, but IF it is not... then I don't know why not.
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)