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AuthorTopic: Request about OS Development  (Read 7974 times)

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Offline Papa6

Request about OS Development
« on: November 21, 2017, 12:37:19 AM »
I'm a user from the Amiga500 days. I got my one and only Amiga500 in 1989/90'ish.

I have Amiga forever & I bought a licensed, legal version of AO 4.1 FE.

This may sound stupid but can the OS be developed for the x86_64 CPU's?

I know the OS is coded for a different architecture. But an x86_64 version, I could enjoy multibooting into the OS on my system at home.

:lol: just a thought I had is all.

-p6
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2017, 01:05:13 AM »
Good luck with this request. I think devs. think that if you run AmigaOS on intel world will end. Running AmigaOS on cheap and fast HW. Never.
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

Offline giZmo350

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 01:24:21 AM »
Quote from: Papa6;833382
I have Amiga forever & I bought a licensed, legal version of AO 4.1 FE.  

This may sound stupid but can the OS be developed for the x86_64 CPU's?


-p6

NO! That's what all the fuss is always about here! :roflmao:
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 01:58:00 AM by gizmo350 »
A500: 2MB Chip, 8MB Fast, IndiECS, MiniMegi, IDE4ZorroII on Z-500, KS1.3/KS3.1, WB3.1&BWB
 
A2000HD: 2MB Chip, 128MB Fast, P5:Blizz 2060@50MHz, PCD-50B/4GBCF, XSurf100, RapidRoad, IndiECS, Matze RTG, MiniMegi, CD-RW, SunRize AD516, WB3.9
 
A1200: 2MB Chip, 64MB Fast, 4GBCF, GVP Typhoon 030 @40MHz w/FPU, Subway USB, EasyNet Ethernet, Indi AGA MKI, FastATA MK-IV, Internal Slim CD/DVD-RW, WB3.5

Surfing The Web With An AMIGA Is Fun Again!
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 02:02:41 AM »
To do "development" requires two things: developers and money. Both of which are in short supply. :(
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline giZmo350

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 02:30:36 AM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;833390
To do "development" requires two things: developers and money. Both of which are in short supply. :(


Or perhaps a third option? Papa6, can you write up an "RFP"?
A500: 2MB Chip, 8MB Fast, IndiECS, MiniMegi, IDE4ZorroII on Z-500, KS1.3/KS3.1, WB3.1&BWB
 
A2000HD: 2MB Chip, 128MB Fast, P5:Blizz 2060@50MHz, PCD-50B/4GBCF, XSurf100, RapidRoad, IndiECS, Matze RTG, MiniMegi, CD-RW, SunRize AD516, WB3.9
 
A1200: 2MB Chip, 64MB Fast, 4GBCF, GVP Typhoon 030 @40MHz w/FPU, Subway USB, EasyNet Ethernet, Indi AGA MKI, FastATA MK-IV, Internal Slim CD/DVD-RW, WB3.5

Surfing The Web With An AMIGA Is Fun Again!
 

Offline LoadWB

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 02:33:55 AM »
You must be new around these here parts.
 

Offline giZmo350

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 02:42:53 AM »
Quote from: LoadWB;833393
You must be new around these here parts.

:roflmao::lol::roflmao::lol::laughing:
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 02:53:33 AM by gizmo350 »
A500: 2MB Chip, 8MB Fast, IndiECS, MiniMegi, IDE4ZorroII on Z-500, KS1.3/KS3.1, WB3.1&BWB
 
A2000HD: 2MB Chip, 128MB Fast, P5:Blizz 2060@50MHz, PCD-50B/4GBCF, XSurf100, RapidRoad, IndiECS, Matze RTG, MiniMegi, CD-RW, SunRize AD516, WB3.9
 
A1200: 2MB Chip, 64MB Fast, 4GBCF, GVP Typhoon 030 @40MHz w/FPU, Subway USB, EasyNet Ethernet, Indi AGA MKI, FastATA MK-IV, Internal Slim CD/DVD-RW, WB3.5

Surfing The Web With An AMIGA Is Fun Again!
 

Offline rshimada

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 04:52:21 AM »
Quote from: Papa6;833382
This may sound stupid but can the OS be developed for the x86_64 CPU's?

There have been attempts.

One project that isn't dead yet is http://www.aros.org/introduction/
 

Offline pVC

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 06:24:49 AM »
Quote from: Papa6;833382
This may sound stupid but can the OS be developed for the x86_64 CPU's?


You would lose backwards binary compatibility with old Amiga software then, that's the major point why we are using PPC.

And backwards compatibility has been the major issue why AROS hasn't got more popular over all these years...
Daily MorphOS user and Amiga active.
 

Offline LoadWB

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 06:30:39 AM »
Eh, PPC doesn't run 680x0 natively, does it?  Doesn't MorphOS and AmigaOS4 have an emulation layer for this?  Why can't AROS?
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 07:42:49 AM »
Quote from: Papa6;833382
I
This may sound stupid but can the OS be developed for the x86_64 CPU's?

Well, this would make more sense than PPC, but - on an absolute scale - is still not a very sensible thing to do. Using x86 instead of PPC would have been an "ok" choice back then when porting the Os to another architecture seemed like a good idea, like 15 years ago, but nowadays, it looks simply insane to me.

Frankly, there are many better operating sytems for x86_64 on the market than AmigaOs, and given the non-availability of software for Os 4.x anyhow, why would one want to shrink the software pool once again by going to another platform (again).
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 08:51:41 AM »
Quote from: LoadWB;833398
Eh, PPC doesn't run 680x0 natively, does it?  Doesn't MorphOS and AmigaOS4 have an emulation layer for this?  Why can't AROS?
AROS is "AmigaOS" on x86_64, and it is a really fun project, I have learnt so much from it and a really recommend trying it out!

Thomas is correct though, from an architectural pint of view the design goals of AmigaOS are far removed from what is needed in an operating system in 2017.

As for adding an inbuilt 68k emulator to a x86_64, I tried it, and hit two problems: endianess (which was quite easy, but very time consuming to solve) and address space size. Unfortunately as soon as the OS and the app operate in different size address spaces they can no longer share data structures, which is a a key architectural design feature of AmigaOS (other operating systems are far more strict about control of the address space).

You can read my issues here: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72059

Offline LoadWB

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 02:17:32 PM »
Obviously there's a difference in man-power and funding, but has anyone done an analysis of how Apple moved MacOS from PPC to Intel and the application of those ideas to AmigaOS?
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 03:30:07 PM »
Quote from: LoadWB;833414
Obviously there's a difference in man-power and funding, but has anyone done an analysis of how Apple moved MacOS from PPC to Intel and the application of those ideas to AmigaOS?

Well, you kow how to become a millionaire? Be a billionaire, and inverst the billions into Amiga development - it's really so easy. Apple had money, funding, and a paying customer base. Now look. See the difference?
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2017, 04:22:01 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;833404
AROS is "AmigaOS" on x86_64, and it is a really fun project, I have learnt so much from it and a really recommend trying it out!

Thomas is correct though, from an architectural pint of view the design goals of AmigaOS are far removed from what is needed in an operating system in 2017.

As for adding an inbuilt 68k emulator to a x86_64, I tried it, and hit two problems: endianess (which was quite easy, but very time consuming to solve) and address space size. Unfortunately as soon as the OS and the app operate in different size address spaces they can no longer share data structures, which is a a key architectural design feature of AmigaOS (other operating systems are far more strict about control of the address space).

You can read my issues here: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=72059

Who really cares about an inbuilt, seamless emulator for 68K apps on x86_64 AROS?  Are the folks who use x86_64 AROS really using 68K software?  That's a rhetorical question and the answer is no.  They're using AROS native apps.  So what's wrong with using the non-seamless UAE on AROS if they really, really want to run 68K apps on AROS?  That's what x86_64 users have been doing on Linux, MacOS and Windows for years and it works great.  So the argument that we shouldn't adopt the x86 architecture in order to retain 68K legacy compatibility is ridiculous.  You have to let go of the past to move forward.  Microsoft did....you can't run DOS apps on the current Windows nor Win16 apps without emulation or virtual machines.  Same goes for Apple.  You can't run classic OS9 or PPC apps on current Macs....both parties now rely on emulators or virtual machines for legacy support....DOSBox, VMWare, UAE, VirtualBox, etc...This obsessing over legacy compatibility has led to a dead end street.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 04:28:52 PM by ferrellsl »