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Offline rinardTopic starter

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The Scientific Miracles
« on: March 27, 2004, 01:22:26 PM »

I’m not a religious but astonished to know that Quran contains unbelievable scientific facts discovered just in the last century.

This is really amazing.

·   Astronomy!
·   Mountains!
·   Human Embryology!
·   Oceans And Seas!
·   The Movement Of Clouds!
·   The Cerebrum!
·   The Shape Of The Earth!
·   The Expansion Of The Universe!
·   The Sensory Characteristic Of The Skin!
·   Formation Of Iron!
·   The Lowest Part On The Face Of The Earth!
·   The Sequence Of Day And Night!
·   The Snow Age!
·   New Diseases!
·   Cnn Top Ten Discoveries Of 1998

You can find more info  of the Scientists Declaration on the following site:
http://www.islampedia.com/ijaz/Html/Scientist_All/Index.htm

Scientists Declaration
 
·       Keith L.Moore
·       E. Marshall Johnson
·       T.V.N. Persaud
·       Joe Leigh Simpson
·       Gerald C. Goeringer
·       Alfred Kroner
·       Yushidi Kusan
·       Professor Armstrong
·       William Hay
·       Durja Rao
·       Professor Siaveda
·       Tejatat Tejasen
·       Dr. Maurice Bucaille

http://islamicity.com/science/
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1.htm

 

Offline blobrana

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2004, 01:36:19 PM »
Hi rinard,
But have they discovered anything else in the intervening 500 years? :-)

Back then science was `embraced` by most of the main religions, hehe, it`s just that science in the west managed to break away from christian doctrine...







[er, this may not be strictly true]


Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2004, 03:47:30 PM »
Quote

blobrana wrote:
Hi rinard,
But have they discovered anything else in the intervening 500 years? :-)

Back then science was `embraced` by most of the main religions, hehe, it`s just that science in the west managed to break away from christian doctrine...


Actually, they discovered plenty since then. Long before europe was enlightened, during the peak of the islamic civilization, they

In no particular order

Invented algebra
Expanded on classical greek geometry
Discovered the laws of reflection and refraction (long before snell) and made some of the first lenses

Charted the stars and built the first planetariums (you should know that one)

Studied human anatomy in detail, discovered the use of neat alcohol for sterilizing things/cleaning wounds (their medical literature was required reading here for 500 years)

They also built some amazing mechanical/water clocks, autonoma etc, a good deal of which still survives today.

And way more that I forgot since :-(

However, I believe the guy was talking *specifically* about things detailed in the Quran, which is some 1400 years old, not 500 ;-)
int p; // A
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2004, 08:48:41 PM »
But Karlos... the key thing here is not what you know... but what you do with it.

Having research a little, the Quran has not been free of "editing" in much the same way that all religious texts have been "edited" to suit the needs of those who espouse them.


Offline blobrana

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2004, 09:38:55 PM »
Hum,
I stand corrected...
;)
(i realized the Koran is a lot older, but i had the impression that around 500 years ago that the two religions `parted` with  `science`...)

It is quite probable that many of the profound discoveries have been lost...The library of Alexanderia, the  teachings of the Druids, the astronomy of the Mayans etc...

If we had kept on track we could have been stepping onto Moon a thousand years ago....(IMHO) :-)

Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2004, 03:30:27 AM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
But Karlos... the key thing here is not what you know... but what you do with it.

Having research a little, the Quran has not been free of "editing" in much the same way that all religious texts have been "edited" to suit the needs of those who espouse them.



Well, given that it exists in the and style language it was originally written in and memorised in its entirety by countless millions of people (known as Hafiz) throught history, I beg to differ.

I used to think it wsa subject to the same "revisionism" as translations of the Bible etc., but its not especially the case. In fact, it's one reason why muslims are expected to learn the language rather than translate it to another language so that the original meaning isn't lost.

There is a Quran from the around the 7th century in a museum in Turkey, it's Arabic is word for word identical to the present day copies available.

As for "what you do with your knowledge" I agree that all their early progress was ultimately in vein in that it was largely lost with the collapse of their civilization (bloody crusades again!!! :-x).

However, without their efforts, we'd be a lot worse off than we are. Just think what algebra (specifically the ability to render problems into mathematical abstract) and arabic numbering system (0-9) has done for us. We'd be doing long division with bloody roman numerals otherwise :lol:

I suggest you read up on the achievements of the islamic civilization from 620AD to 1000AD, it's a truly eye opening period of history that we are never taught anything about :-(
int p; // A
 

Offline rinardTopic starter

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2004, 05:47:42 AM »
Maybe because of these scientific miracles Islam becomes the fastest-growing religion in America and in the world? Although religion is no longer dominates everyday life in Western society.

A NATION CHALLENGED: AMERICAN MUSLIMS; Islam Attracts Converts By the Thousand, Drawn Before and After Attacks
By JODI WILGOREN
Source: The New York Times: October 22, 2001, Monday
Section: National Desk

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/3016/fastest.htm

"Islam is the fastest-growing religion in America, a guide and pillar of stability for many of our people..." Hillary Rodman Clinton, Los Angeles Times, May 31, 1996, p.3

Famous people are affected too:

Singer "Cat Stevens" Hear his story as told him
http://www.islamtomorrow.net/converts/yusuf_islam.htm

 

Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2004, 06:30:16 AM »
Don't worry, I'm sure the present administration will put a stop to that :lol:
int p; // A
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2004, 11:38:59 AM »
Point 1) It is well known that the Islamic east had exceptional scientific knowledge inherited from the Greeks. Christianity destroyed all that.

Point 2) You can say that any text "pointed out" anything, you just have to be vague enough. For example you could say that the Bible and Nostradamus and Madame Fifi's book of the Pleasures of the Flesh all predicted the emergence of jet aircraft. It's just a matter of being creative, not logical.

Point 3) Islam is just another religion that attacks intellectual integrity in favour of dogma and unquestioning obedience to scripture and so is against science.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2004, 01:33:02 PM »
All the major religions of that region inherited all their "science" from other cultures of the time.

You will find that the Arabic peoples (not to mention the Persians, Greeks and Hindus) were all using algebra long before Islam was a twinkle in Mohamud's eye.

But becasue Christianity didn't keep it's scientific inheritance in it's relious texts (if it kept much at all), does not mean that Islam is superior to it.

The only great Religions that have ever existed, are the anchient European ones, the Greek ones (inherited and addapted by the Romans), The Native American ones and Buddhism.

The Native American and Europeans Religons were good, since they required one to be at peace with nature. I like that. But they can't survive the people centric, Hate loving Religions.

The Greek Relions (Leading into the Roman ones) were good, Under this belief system Mankind's knowledge expanded exponentially. But there religions were too complex and libberal to survive simple, conservative religions.

Buddhism is good, because it's simple message is "be excellent to oneanother". Gods not included. ;-) People don't like being Execllent to oneanother though :-(


So we see a world slowing being dominated by Hate loving, simple, people centric, conservative religions... the simpler, more people centric, more conservative and more hate loving it is... the more popular it becomes.


In the west we have had the advantage of the "Enlightenment", were we managed to abstract out the core components of The dominant religion, and set up dedicated disciplins to cover it's role, rendering it essentially suplurfulous.

Religion became split into;

1. Politics
2. Science
3. Phylosophy
4. Spirituality

I rather like part 4. since we can now pick and choose a spirituality to best fit our lives. Organised Religion is, as I have pointed out, is now a waste of time.


Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2004, 05:42:32 PM »
Wow, you guys need to lighten up on the prejudices a bit. Take off the "all organized religion is antiscientific dogmatic crap" head and stick the "ok, lets be objective" head on for a moment :lol:

Just because you don't like a religion is no reason to deride everything it says regardless of context, or refute that people of that faith ever developed anything that wasn't already known. Thats simply insulting the work of countless people who tried to unravel the world around them just because you think that they arent qualified to have an objective mind because they were religious.

If you are going to bash something, at least study it closely first, else you can end up looking an arse - just like I did :lol:

However, its common for people to avoid doing just that for fear they may actually find some things they agree with.
Better to stay willfully ignorant.
@Kenny

Whilst I agree totally that its generally possible to massage specific meaning from just about anything if you try hard enough, I can honestly say that I have never had to stretch my imagination when studying quranical references.

One of the first ones I found all by myself was a reference to what required no great leaps of intuition. I can't remember the exact verse but I could find it again if I were pressed. Now, the translation perhaps has modified the meaning, but I've asked native arabic speakers *exactly* what does it mean to them and the agreement was spot on.

The translated verse read (from memory) "Praise be to Allah who has set mountains deep into the earth as pegs, lest it should quake."

We may differ on opinion here, but to me the above isn't particularly vague at all.

Now, as platetectonic theory describes, mountains (which a bit like icebergs tend to go much deeper into the mantle than they poke above the ground), are formed as plates buckle and fold as one is gradually pushed beneath the other. There are plenty of eathquake prone places where plates are pushing directly against each other, but neither has began to fold into a mountain range.

There are innumerable other examples, some slightly less specific, some slightly more.

Far from being a anti scientific religion, it actually instructs its followers to go an seek knowledge and learn how the universe and everything in it works.

Just because at this period in history people of the faith at large don't seem unduly concerned to do this does not mean the instruction isn't there.

@Bloodline

You are incorrect on the general assumption that all faiths of the era depended solely on pre-existing knoweldge, but I will let you off because its a massively common misconception that even I had.

Regarding algebra, you are correct only to a point.

The modern form of abstract algebra (al-jabr), using operators and symbols to define indeterminable quantities, was developed by a the arab mathematician (living in Baghdad, then an established centre of learning) Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khowarizmi. He wrote a famous book in about 825 AD  called "Hidab al-jabr wal-muqubala" in which he documents the symbolic (operator based) representation of equations, their transposition and use in problem solving etc.

It's historically documented and verified all over the place.

Now, that is not to say, as you correctly point out that analytical forms of arithmetic did not already exist and nobody denies the contribution of greek and Hindu mathematicians. The latter introduced 2 fundamental concepts, specifically the number zero and the negative number scale.

However, the analytical arithmetic used by the classical greek mathematicans was not directly comparable.

To paraphrase from a book on the evolution of albebra "Greek mathematical thought and the origin of algebra"

The Greek concept of mathematical objects was based upon the notion of arithmos, but this cannot be thought of as a concept of "general magnitude" i.e. "x", the unknown quantity. It never means anything other than "a definite number of definite objects," or an "assemblage of things counted".

Likewise, geometric figures and curves, commensurable and incommensurable magnitudes, ratios, have their own special ontology which directs mathematical inquiry and its methods.

int p; // A
 

Offline GadgetMaster

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2004, 07:10:12 PM »
Hang on guys!

Why do you automatically think that Religion and science cannot flourish together. History proves you wrong.

Its a historical fact that science was developed a great deal during the Islamic Golden era and most of the scientists were devout Muslims. Research was encouraged and progress was made.

There are researchers and scientist even now that make great discoveries but they are sometimes Jewish, Christian, Muslim etc. Ask them if science comes in the way of their progress.

It is only a modern concept instigated by the secular educational system that a division must be created between spirituality and the laws of the physical world.

You will have to do a bit more research into the politics of why a divide was created and you may understand things better.

It is out of the way modern thinking is fashioned that such ideas exist.

Someone mentions religion and you instantly think "War, backwards, dark ages and unscientific". Why?

Ignorace  and prejudice is being shown by otherwise intelligent people.

Some are so opposed to religion that they argue it is the cause of all wars. Just tell me one thing. If no religion ever existed do you really think human kind would just give up its tendencey to kill and have wars?

It just surprises me that If someone points out science in religion peopl get all wound up about it and start attacking religion often with half baked opinions and stereotypical bias.

There is more to this world than you choose to acknowledge. What do you fear?If all scientific knowledge and research one day ultimately led to the discovery that there is actually a creator would you be too pompous to accept that conclusion?

As Karlos pointed out there has been a very strong and concerted effort to prevent the authentic Quranic script from ever being modified. There exist and have existed since its revelation millions of "Hafiz" memorisers that will all recite the Original Arabic manuscript unchanged. Go to your local mosque and ask to find out of any local one and then find one from across the world like china for instance. Ask them to recite a particular verse and you will see what I mean.

It is genuinely surprising. There have never been editions or revision. You only have to do some unbiased research as I have done to find out the truth of the matter.

I dont think the original poster intended to claim that Islam has a monopoly on sciences and knowledge. He merely pointed out something that he found astounding from the Muslim Scripture.

I see no reason to get all defensive and offensive.
 

Offline blobrana

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2004, 08:07:21 PM »
@GadgetMaster

Hum,
Science is the new religion...
It is the only way (IMHO) that humanity can know itself...

But i know what you mean...I myself am a Pictish Jedi, and i can quite happily coexist with `science`...


Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2004, 08:25:40 PM »
Well, science is one thing.. But you have to do things with it either.
I always thought die-hard science was my thing. But it's not. I'm more for the creative, application part of science (if that's science).
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Offline cecilia

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2004, 09:05:24 PM »
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today."
-- Isaac Asimov

"We owe it to ourselves as respectable human beings, as thinking human beings, to do what we can to make humanity more rational...Humanists recognize that it is only when people feel free to think for themselves, using reason as their guide, that they are best capable of developing values that succeed in satisfying human needs and serving human interests."
-- Isaac Asimov


"I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say that one is an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or agnostic. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."
-- Isaac Asimov

"I would not be satisfied to have my kids choose to be religious without trying to argue them out of it, just as I would not be satisfied to have them decide to smoke regularly or engage in any other practice I considered detrimental to mind or body."
-- Isaac Asimov, "Yours, Isaac Asimov"

"Creationists make it sound as though a theory is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
-- Isaac Asimo
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