The Scientific Miracles

[cecilia]

"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today."
-- Isaac Asimov

"We owe it to ourselves as respectable human beings, as thinking human beings, to do what we can to make humanity more rational...Humanists recognize that it is only when people feel free to think for themselves, using reason as their guide, that they are best capable of developing values that succeed in satisfying human needs and serving human interests."
-- Isaac Asimov


"I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say that one is an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow it was better to say one was a humanist or agnostic. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect that he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."
-- Isaac Asimov

"I would not be satisfied to have my kids choose to be religious without trying to argue them out of it, just as I would not be satisfied to have them decide to smoke regularly or engage in any other practice I considered detrimental to mind or body."
-- Isaac Asimov, "Yours, Isaac Asimov"

"Creationists make it sound as though a theory is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
-- Isaac Asimo

[cecilia]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Well, science is one thing.. But you have to do things with it either.
I always thought die-hard science was my thing. But it's not. I'm more for the creative, application part of science (if that's science).

I studied science in school but when it came time to have a career I decided on art. (long story)

I've always felt, however, that science and art were basically the same. Both look for the truth and show it. they just use different methods.

and we became human when we looked at our world Imagining it Again, drawing pictures of it in the sands and on the walls. And when we transformed bones and sticks using them in ways they had not been originally made for.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Yes, but I was once in a lab, and the only thing I had to do was measuring, measuring and again, measuring. I got bored stiff. No, I am now doing the right thing now, I think. With huge factories, wich have to do the right thing, and my thoughts are becoming reality :-)

[Karlos]

"Humanists recognize that it is only when people feel free to think for themselves, using reason as their guide, that they are best capable of developing values that succeed in satisfying human needs and serving human interests"

Well, when you use only reason as your guide, you can justify an awful lot of things which may make scientific sense but are clearly unethical.

As an extreme example, to improve the human condition, you could sterilize all those with hereditary defects, or carriers of defective genes to end the suffering those genes would inflict on future generations.

For those of the existing generations who are afflicted with untreatable conditions that severely reduce their quality of life, you could give them the option of termination.

For those unable to make the decision due to severe mental impairment, you could delegate the choice to their nearest kin. There is nothing scientifically unreasonable about this approach. Enormous amounts of money would be saved which could be directed elsewhere and many life threatening hereditary diseases would be eliminated, for the benefit of all mankind.

Now, there isn't a sane person here who would argue that that is totally wrong, cold, cruel and downright evil even. But why?

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Karlos wrote:
As an extreme example, to improve the human condition, you could sterilize all those with hereditary defects, or carriers of defective genes to end the suffering those genes would inflict on future generations.

Bullocks. The human race is perfect.
So is any non-extincting specie. The extincting species were perfect. In the conditions they lived of course.

If you want to alter humanity like that, you do not know what you are doing. Nature has always his domino-effect. You do not know when a gene is defective or not. Or that it SHOULD be defective or not.

This is also my lament against bio-technology.
While I do not think research should stop, I do think the use of it should stop. Too much environmental variable elements.

-edit-

Now, there isn't a sane person here who would argue that that is totally wrong, cold, cruel and downright evil even. But why?

Because that would screw up the human pact, for instance.

[Cymric]

rinard wrote:
I’m not a religious but astonished to know that Quran contains unbelievable scientific facts discovered just in the last century:

If I put the 'discoveries' aside (most of which were known or educated guesses before the Qu'ran was written), what is your point? Are you by any chance trying to imply that since there is so much scientific goodness in the book that the rest of its contents must be true as well? Sorry, but that won't work. If you are not implying this, my question remains: what is your point?

Scientists Declaration

Science doesn't work by declaration. It works by independent observation, a thing lost on all of the signees of the declaration. And yourself too, obviously. The list of names is quite pointless.

Without question, the Islamic culture was responsible for a great many scientific advances in a time when Europe was painfully stuck in a choking religious dark age. Nowadays, the reverse is true, which is a shame. There's good intellectual material in the peoples of the Middle East.

[rinard]

Regarding conversion, from what I've heard from different friends of mine who have converted to Islam, there are a few main reasons for most conversions.

1. Islam is a religious lifestyle, not just a quick Sunday morning church visit and a label. Although some Christians do pray before each meal and spend much time with their Bible, etc.many don't in the USA. Islam is something that can't be shunted into a few spare hours. You pray five times a day. Your dress code is affected; even your food choices are explained in the Qur'an. Many converts like it because they feel actively involved and as if they are truly religious.

2. For women, it is a big and welcome change from the "in your face" sexuality of western culture. Women are not required by the Qur'an to veil. They are required to dress modestly and it is *recommended* that they cover their hair. However, most do veil and some go farther with niquab (the face screen) or other traditional clothes. Women dressed like this consider themselves marked as religious women, not easy dates. They don't get hit on. No one gawks at their bodies. They are clearly off limits sexually and many that I personally know say it is liberating not to have to conform to western standards of sexy dress, makeup and spending so much time and money on appearance. You buy a five-dollar hijab, put your hair in a ponytail and cover, wear long skirt and a tunic shirt -you're set.

3. Islam is also growing because many people are not satisfied with Christianity. They feel it is too liberal, too fluid and changes for the culture. Islam on the other hand is more rigid and does not as a whole allow much for modern changes and the whims of society. Many like it because they feel other religions have loose standards.

That's what I got from the new Muslimah's group at Yahoo, Islamway women's board and a few other friends of mine. Stats taken by many college groups say that women convert 4 times more often then men.


This is an example:


Why Are Women Turning to Islam
At a time when Islam is faced with hostile media coverage particularly where the status of women in Islam is concerned, it may be quite surprising to learn that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, and even more ironic to discover that the majority of converts to Islam are WOMEN.
The status of women is society is neither a new issue nor is it a fully settled one, and where Islam is mentioned, for many the term 'Muslim Women' prompts images of exhausted mothers chained to the stove, 'victims' suppressed in a life of indoctrination, frantic to be westernized and so on. Others will go to great lengths to explain how the hijaab is an obstacle, clouding the mind, and comment that female converts are either brainwashed, stupid or traitors to their sex. I reject such accusations and pose to them the following question: why is it that so many women who have been born and brought in the so called 'civilized' societies of Europe and America are willing to reject their 'liberty' and 'independence' to embrace a religion that supposedly oppresses them and is widely assumed to be prejudicial to them?
As a Christian convert to Islam, I can only present my personal experience and reasons for rejecting the 'freedom' that women claim to have in this society in favor of the only Religion that truly liberates women by giving us a status and position, which is completely unique when compared with that of non-Muslim counterparts. Before coming to Islam, I had strong feminist tendencies and recognized that where the women was concerned, a lot of shuffling around had been going on, yet without being able to pin her on the social map. The problem was ongoing: new 'women's issues' being raised without the previous ones being satisfactorily resolved. Like the many women who shared my background, I would accuse Islam of being a sexist religion, discriminating, oppressing and giving men the greater privileges. All this coming from a person who did not even know Islam, one who had been blinded due to ignorance and had accepted this deliberately distorted definition of Islam.
 
However, despite my criticisms of Islam, inwardly I wasn't satisfied with my own status as a woman in this society. It seemed to me that society would define such terms as 'liberty' and 'freedom' and then these definitions were accepted by women without us even attempting to question or challenge them. There was clearly a great contradiction between what women were told in theory and what actually happens in practice.  The more I pondered, the greater emptiness I felt within. I was slowly beginning to reach a stage where my dissatisfaction with my status as a women in this society, was really a reflection of my greater dissatisfaction with society itself. Everything seemed to be degenerating backwards, despite the claims that the 2000 was going to be the decade of success and prosperity. Something vital seemed to be missing from my life and nothing would fill this vacuum. Being a Christian did not do anything for me, and I began to question the validity of only remembering God one day a week - Sundays! As with many other Christians too, I had become disillusioned with the hypocrisy of the Church and was becoming increasingly unhappy with the concept of Trinity and the deification of Jesus. Eventually, I began to look into Islam. At first, I was only interested in looking at those issues, which specifically dealt with women. I was surprised. What I read and learned taught me a lot about myself as a woman, and also about where the real oppression of women lies: in every other system and way of life outside of Islam. Muslim women have been given their rights in every aspect of the religion with clear definitions of their role in society - as had men - with no injustice against either of them. As Allah says: Whoever does deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter paradise and not the least injustice will be done to them [Nisaa 4:124]
So having amended my misconceptions about the true status of women in Islam, I was now looking further. I wanted to find that thing which was going to fill the vacuum in my life. My attention was drawn towards the beliefs and practices of Islam. It was only through establishing the fundamentals that I would understand where to turn and what to prioritize. These are often the areas, which receive little attention or controversy in society, and when studying the Islamic Creed, it becomes clear why this is the case: such concise, faultless and wholly comprehensive details cannot be found elsewhere.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

:-? what has lifestyle to do with the origin of all aspects of the existence of everything?

[bloodline]

Karlos wrote:
"Humanists recognize that it is only when people feel free to think for themselves, using reason as their guide, that they are best capable of developing values that succeed in satisfying human needs and serving human interests"

Well, when you use only reason as your guide, you can justify an awful lot of things which may make scientific sense but are clearly unethical.

As an extreme example, to improve the human condition, you could sterilize all those with hereditary defects, or carriers of defective genes to end the suffering those genes would inflict on future generations.

For those of the existing generations who are afflicted with untreatable conditions that severely reduce their quality of life, you could give them the option of termination.

For those unable to make the decision due to severe mental impairment, you could delegate the choice to their nearest kin. There is nothing scientifically unreasonable about this approach. Enormous amounts of money would be saved which could be directed elsewhere and many life threatening hereditary diseases would be eliminated, for the benefit of all mankind.

Now, there isn't a sane person here who would argue that that is totally wrong, cold, cruel and downright evil even. But why?

The last thing we need is another Religion bashing thread. But lest ye not forget that far greater atrocities have been commited in the name of (a) God than in the name of science :-)


I would, however, point out that the issues you have raised are social ones not religious or scientific ones. Check out my Abstraction table in an earlier post.

[Karlos]

@Bloodline,

Er, I was actually defending it, not bashing it :lol: - I believe the bashing commenced immediately yourself and kenny joined the discussion with remarks like:

"Islam is just another religion that attacks intellectual integrity in favour of dogma and unquestioning obedience to scripture and so is against science." (implying you cannot be a muslim and have a scientific mind)

"All the major religions of that region inherited all their "science" from other cultures of the time." (implying nobody of the era was able to originate anything)

;-)

Moving on, the issues I have raised last time are religious as well as social. You will probably find that people of a religious bent would find the notion I raised more offensive by far than those who just see it as simply unethical.

For example, optional termination of those with a poor quality of life is the whole euthanasia argument. Now, I'm not personally stating if it is right or wrong. For many, this is a moral grey area, but for a great deal of people whose moral sense of right and wrong are religously influenced, it's deemed unquestinably wrong.

Your abstraction, whilst demonstrable in modern society, is not absolute and never will be as long as religion exists it will shape to some extent the moral values people hold.

As for religion has committed great autrocities, well I can't argue.

However, as Gadget points out, history has also proven beyond any doubt that people will commit autrocities utterly regardless of any religious influence. Look at Stalins "purges" for instance.

Anyhow, this is all grossly off topic now. I believe the original poster was simply pointing out that there are revelations in the quran that s/he (and evidentally a great many others) finds miraculous in that some of it seems to be beyond the scope of the existing knowledge (even if you include all the Greek, Persian etc.) of the time.

[bloodline]

Er, I was actually defending it, not bashing it  - I believe the bashing commenced immediately yourself and kenny joined the discussion with remarks like:

No, I was bashing it. And I'm fed up of bashing it. I don't mean to bash it, but I find religions are as ludicrous as thinking the moon is made of cheese.

So in an effort to avoid ofending anyone, I'll try to tone down the sentiment of my posts.
It's obviously difficult to hold back, when other agree with me, and egg me on :-(

[Karlos]

@Matt

Don't worry about it :-) You find religion ludicrous and thats totally within your rights. I find many things ludicrous myself. I only defend religions against what I see as unfair / incorrect criticism, like some the points in this thread. Stuff like this is pretty interesting when you dig into it.

Personally, I like to remain open minded. If the hypothetical scenario Gadget mentions came to pass and the sum total of scientific knowledge were to prove the existance of God, that would be truly wonderous IMHO. However, there would always be people willing to refute the find, just as there would be people ready to believe if the opposite scenario played out.

[cecilia]

2. For women, it is a big and welcome change from the "in your face" sexuality of western culture.

certainly if people feel comfortable "Turning to Islam", that's just fine by me.

but i'd like to point out that I have always "dressed down" in this western culture and haven't worn makeup in years. No one has ever forced me to wear anything I didn't want to wear in this "in your face" western sexual culture.

and while I've had my share of "sexist" behavior, it's all part of living in the real world. deal with it.

frankly, i think some females just can't take the heat. not that HAVE to, mind you. but in this culture, when the going gets tough, the tough get going.

[rinard]

Let there be no misunderstanding of my intentions. This post is not an assault on Christianity or any other religion.
 It is indispensable for me to look for the truth and study comparative religion because if I would like to know whether a religion is true or false, I should not depend on my emotions, feelings, or traditions. Rather, I should depend on my reason and intellect. When God sent the prophets, He supported them with miracles and evidences, which proved that they were truly prophets, send by God and that the religion they came with was true.


God revealed a holy book to Jesus called the Injeel, some parts of which may be still available in the teachings of God to Jesus in the New Testament. But this does not mean that the Bible we have today because it is not the original scriptures that were revealed by God. They underwent alterations, additions, and omissions. This was also said by the Committee charged with revising The Holy Bible (Revised Standard Version). This Committee consisted of thirty-two scholars who served as members of the Committee. They secured the review and counsel of an Advisory Board of fifty representatives of the co-operating denominations. The Committee said in the Preface to The Holy Bible (Revised Standard Version), p. iv, “Sometimes it is evident that the text has suffered in transmission, but none of the versions provides a satisfactory restoration. Here we can only follow the best judgment of competent scholars as to the most probable reconstruction of the original text.
 The Committee also said in the Preface, p. vii, Notes are added which indicate significant variations, additions, or omissions in the ancient authorities (Mt 9.34; Mk 3.16; 7.4; Lk 24.32, 51, etc.).

My question is do we believe in the information declared in the following sites or not:

THE REAL STORY OF MARY
http://geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/3001/storyofmary.htm

THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS
http://sultan.org/articles/Jesus.html

Who Was Jesus According to Jesus?
http://www.islaminfo.com

IS THE BIBLE GODS WORD?
http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html

Women in Christianity and Islam
http://www.beconvinced.com/women/CH_IS.htm

The Bible - A Closer Look!
http://www.todayislam.com/bible.htm

[Speelgoedmannetje]

soooo, where can I find the part in the bible describing the surface of Mars, or the creation of Dinosaurs?

[Cymric]

rinard wrote:
Let there be no misunderstanding of my intentions. This post is not an assault on Christianity or any other religion.
 It is indispensable for me to look for the truth and study comparative religion because if I would like to know whether a religion is true or false, I should not depend on my emotions, feelings, or traditions. Rather, I should depend on my reason and intellect. When God sent the prophets, He supported them with miracles and evidences, which proved that they were truly prophets, send by God and that the religion they came with was true.

Alllllrighty.... Another misguided attempt at 'reasoning out' religion, while in fact there can be no reason to such an endeavour due to the very nature of religion. While this website has a section devoted to discussions of a religious and philosophical nature, I don't think it was meant as an invitation to begin evangelisizing or starting a word-for-word comparison between two old and outdated theological texts. There are plenty of other sites and forums out there where such discussions can be conducted. Could you please do us all a favour and move to those if you feel like talking about your ideas? Thank you.