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Offline mdwh2

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #44 from previous page: April 02, 2004, 03:39:56 AM »
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Karlos wrote:
Hey dude, that wasn't actually my opinion, it was supposed to provoke some thought on the idea that if one uses only what seems to be a logical and rational approach to all matters, you can justify an awful lot of things that many people (myself included) feel are clearly wrong/unethical.
Well that's what I was arguing at - something is only "clearly" wrong because there exists some logical and rational argument supporting that viewpoint.

There probably exists some kind of argument to exist all sorts of things, but I should hope we can come up with counter-arguments for anything which we think is "clearly" unethical.

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For example, the suggestions made were to improve future generations physical well being by attempting to remove what could be demonstrated scientifically to be defective genes from the species. That's what I meant by "not scientifically unreasonable" (which wasnt the best turn of phrase, but meant to imply makes sense logically). I also state that there probably isnt a sane person who would be comfortable with that suggestion, but why?
I don't think science makes any ethical suggestions at all. It may give facts - such as this gene causes that, or throwing two lumps of uranium causes a rather big bang - but I don't that automatically gives us any argument that we should go ahead and do those things (be it trying to prevent a gene from propagating, or setting off atomic bombs). I think you're confusing the scientific statements that make sense, and the ways in which people might use that information - they are two different things.

In order to support the idea that people shouldn't be able to reproduce, you also have to combine the scientific facts with the opinion that removing defective genes overrides someone's right to have a child. Also this is very much a matter of probability - usually AIUI there isn't a certainty that genes will be passed on that cause a condition, only a possiblity. Not to mention that a "defective gene" is a subjective and non-scientific opinion. A government might decide that all sorts of traits are undesirable, and try to breed them out. Cultures could also be wiped out by preventing them from having children (Nazi Germany and Jews?)

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Simply because it is unethical, was the answer I was hoping for...
Something is unethical, because it is unethical?

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The question arises, where do ethics come from? How do you define what is ethical and what is not?
Well, it's all a matter of opinion. But I prefer it when people can at least explain why they think it is wrong (either by describing effects of it that I might not have forseen, or reasoning from some initial set of axioms that I might agree with), rather than just saying circular things like "it's wrong because it's immoral", or statements like "it's wrong because God says so" (which are useless, because you can simply say "it's right because God says so").
 

Offline adz

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2004, 06:21:45 AM »
@rinard


I believe that the correct word is revert, not convert. From my knowledge, moslems believe that we are all born moslem and must revert back to it if we choose another path in life, but being a "moslem", you are probably arlready aware of that. Assuming you really are a moslem, not just someone that wanted to start their own little flame war, what sect of Islam did you decide to follow? Do you believe in the Hadith or do you believe solely in the Nobel Quran? Personally I think your just another troll.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2004, 09:46:09 AM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
@mdwh2

Hey dude, that wasn't actually my opinion, it was supposed to provoke some thought on the idea that if one uses only what seems to be a logical and rational approach to all matters, you can justify an awful lot of things that many people (myself included) feel are clearly wrong/unethical.

I was also putting forward the implication that people who are devout would probably find the hypothetical situation I was describing more than just simply "unethical"...

For example, the suggestions made were to improve future generations physical well being by attempting to remove what could be demonstrated scientifically to be defective genes from the species. That's what I meant by "not scientifically unreasonable" (which wasnt the best turn of phrase, but meant to imply makes sense logically). I also state that there probably isnt a sane person who would be comfortable with that suggestion, but why?

Simply because it is unethical, was the answer I was hoping for...

The question arises, where do ethics come from? How do you define what is ethical and what is not?

Are ethics inherently shaped by existing (in particular, religious) concepts of moral / amoral?



But religions are far worse... I shall explain why. Regigions have constantly sought to treat deformity and "abnormal behaviour" as the "devils" work or some such term.

Science our increasing reliance in Science over religion stops our from burning whiches, killing people who are a different colour, stoning "possesed" people, persecuting Homosexuals.... the list goes on.

Religions are intollerant, they have to be or they cannot survive.

Science is what allows us to realises that we are all people, doing the same things with the same loves, desires, drives.

Science is Logical. Religions are a small group's biggoted pollicial views forced upon the population.

Sure in modern times religions try to put on a face of commassion, but that is actually a perversion of the true ideals of the religion. And I say perversion is a good thing ;-)

Offline rinardTopic starter

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2004, 09:57:27 AM »
Finally,
The natural inclination for religious faith is an integral part of the human essence. This is an indisputable fact of history. All scholars of comparative religion, regardless of their own religious backgrounds, agree that religious belief is a natural human condition. They differ, however about its origins.

 It is indispensable for everybody to look for the truth now or later but who guarantee life and how long we are going to live and when the last moment will come. No body knows.  
We have all the capabilities and resources to recognize and distinguish using for example the Internet. There will be no excuse for all of us, we will be asked then.

 

Offline bloodline

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2004, 10:31:43 AM »
Quote

rinard wrote:
Finally,
The natural inclination for religious faith is an integral part of the human essence. This is an indisputable fact of history. All scholars of comparative religion, regardless of their own religious backgrounds, agree that religious belief is a natural human condition. They differ, however about its origins.

 It is indispensable for everybody to look for the truth now or later but who guarantee life and how long we are going to live and when the last moment will come. No body knows.  
We have all the capabilities and resources to recognize and distinguish using for example the Internet. There will be no excuse for all of us, we will be asked then.



I do agree, people are born with a natural desire to want order and a leader. That is the nature of fear.

Anyway, after all is said and done. We are all human (I think :crazy:) and regardless of each others faith (or lack threrof) in a higher (spiritual) power we should all agree that the most important thing is to work together here on this little rocky lump we call "The Earth" and STOP FIGHTING! :-P