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AuthorTopic: Request about OS Development  (Read 8142 times)

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Offline number6

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2017, 02:02:07 PM »
Quote from: polyp2000;833658
Yes it can , only Hyperion dont think thats a good business plan.


You any many others desire this , but due to the Hyperions stance on this the only way you are going to be able to achieve this is using AROS . An Open Source implementation of AmigaOS.

In the long run AROS will still be standing when Hyperion are dead and buried as the source code is legally available and distributable to the public. Theres also the fact that commodity X86 hardware is much less expensive. This makes the barrier to entry a much more reasonable proposition .

But Hyperion dont care about that nor listen to the wishes of the Amiga Community.


It might be wise to consider alternative points of view to "business plan":

Source

#6
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2017, 03:19:11 PM »
Quote from: sim085;833661
Is there any OS feature which is better in AmigaOS than in Linux or Unix? And I am not speaking about the 80s. I mean now; something that Amiga OS still does better than the other more developed operating systems out there. Something which is fundamental to AmigaOS and done differently in other operating systems and AmigaOS way of doing this is still better than how the other operating systems are doing it.

Not really. Everything was designed to work within the confines of the hardware.

If you don't have access to an mmu then you can't make use of it, so you may as well make the most of all programs being able to read and write all memory. Now you have an MMU, that falls apart.

If today's hardware was available in the 80's then you wouldn't design amigaos the same way.

The one feature I used to miss was drive names rather than letters and being able to use volume labels instead. But there are issues with the way amigaos did that as well, it's greatest use was with using removable media for working storage & we don't tend to use that now.

Quote from: stefcep2;833660
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a16010/30-year-old-computer-runs-school-heat/

You'll always find examples like that. I knew someone who had been using a BBC micro for running a custom lighting rig for 30 years. Like the amiga running an air conditioner, it didn't really make much sense. You could use something more modern, more reliable, more supportable.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 03:32:30 PM by psxphill »
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2017, 03:30:15 PM »
Reading about all this legal issues etc. it only shows that "Amiga Community" is like any community without it head/leadership (at this point it is hard to call it COMMUNITY, only common things is name "Amiga" somewhere at the back of the head...). "Amiga Community" is in a some sort of vegetative state. It is not expanding, but it is not dead. Individuals are trying to push it in various directions of development, that only wastes resources/time on unfinished, buggy HW/software that feels as it is always in "beta". There is so many ideas what Amiga is as many users.

I'm thinking of getting A1222, but now I started to think: who is going to provide any type of support for this computer? Nobody cares anymore about ClassicPPC users, nobody cares about Sam user or even X1000 users... We definitely need like 50 different motherboards running AmigaOS4.x so devs. can spend they free time developing new ethernet drivers every time new mobo surface.

Have you ever seen chicken "running" without head?
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2017, 03:40:07 PM »
Quote from: sim085;833661
Is there any OS feature which is better in AmigaOS than in Linux or Unix?
Not really.

There are a couple of nice features, though. The way how AmigaOs (or rather Tripos) handles removable media is much simpler than it is on Linux. There, removable media detection and handling has to go through quite a stack of software layers, starting from udev up to the dbus-system and finally the desktop. Unix has no native concept of "removable devices" and hence has to go through hoops to get something like it (it is constructed as a server system, not as a user system, and you feel it). AmigaOs handles this quite nicely within the Os.

Also, directory access on Amiga can be transferred between physical devices. So for example,type in "list DF0:" on the shell, hold the output with ^S in the middle, then remove the disk, insert it into "DF1:" and continue listing from there. Do not try this with Linux or Windows.

The drawback is the complexity of implementing the required logic on the file-system basis. EXAMINE_NEXT (the corresponding command) is a horror for any author of a file handler, and it took years to get this done correctly in the Ram-Handler (or so I hope).

Also, the dos.library (aka Tripos) is (BPTRs apart) a nice "virtual file system" whereas on Linux, the file system is rather a subroutine call from a process perspective and isthere scheduled between processes, which requires an amount of overhead due to inter-process locking and communication. Writing *a simple* filing system on the Amiga is simpler as this type of process locking does not exist - there is a single process per file system. Unfortunately, it also means that writing a well-performing filing system is harder since it has to do all the threading itself. FFS does that, but is also notoriously hard to maintain.

Low-level primitives such as "message passing" are nice, but not quite on par with the requirements of today, namely isolation between processes. One would never do it this way today. It was simple, effective, but is also completely insecure.
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2017, 03:42:37 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;833670
It only shows that "Amiga Community" is like any community without it head/leadership-

Have you ever seen chicken "running" without head?

Hold on! Have you seen any leadership in Linux-land lately? It is "a new distribution every five months, but still no working printing system", essentially.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2017, 04:48:04 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;833671
Low-level primitives such as "message passing" are nice, but not quite on par with the requirements of today, namely isolation between processes. One would never do it this way today. It was simple, effective, but is also completely insecure.


but this is, for better or worse, one of still unique characteristics of amiga system, change all that to whats considered modern, and youll get some kind of linux or similar.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2017, 04:51:06 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;833670
Have you ever seen chicken "running" without head?


as thor writes, some chickens can run without a head for some while.
you might as well consider "democracy" a chicken without a head for the lack of strong leadership.
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2017, 05:02:59 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;833674
as thor writes, some chickens can run without a head for some while.
you might as well consider "democracy" a chicken without a head for the lack of strong leadership.

Community selects leader that serves this community = democracy. The better leader, the better community (and opposite). Leader: General, Capitan, President, CEO, PI, Boss, Capitan Picard... having "bad/good" leadership will not equal - lack of it :).

Who is in charge of this what is happening with AmigaOS? I can't identify ONE person that is responsible for "direction" of development. What are GOALS in AmigaOS development? Did I missed something? Saying "it is a hobby" will simply create more and more dilutions of efforts. It is called entropy :).
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2017, 05:05:15 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;833672
Hold on! Have you seen any leadership in Linux-land lately? It is "a new distribution every five months, but still no working printing system", essentially.


Yes, I just installed MacOS High Sierra and all my printers work, including that 20 years old.
A1200inE/BOX/3.1.4/AmigaOS3.9+BB1,2,3,4/060/66Mhz+603+/330Mhz/256Mb/FAST-ATA V /MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/ZIP-250/FDD-HD
PC/AmigaOS4.1/Xeon 1265Lv3  with Amiga Forever 2016!!!.
Dell T600/Win98SE/XP/256Mb/Radeon9600Pro/SBLive!/80Gb/DVD-ROM
Color Classic/System 7.1/030/16Mhz/FPU/10Mb/80Mb HDD
Performa 6400/System 8.6/PPC 603ev180Mhz+G3 350Mhz/Rage128Pro/136Mb/80GB HDD
IBM PC :)
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2017, 05:13:46 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;833675
I can't identify ONE person that is responsible for "direction" of development.


if you refer to os4 as amigaos, then the responsible are the owners of hyperion entertainment.
 

Offline NorthWay

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2017, 06:47:28 PM »
Quote from: sim085;833661
Is there any OS feature which is better in AmigaOS than in Linux or Unix?

I would nominate datatypes. The unix side lacks the whip swinger to introduce it at the higher ends of the display stack and make it standard - anything visual is contributed by so many parties. And don't forget all the other files types it handles which can be taken care of by non-display parts.
This is a whole-OS interface and your average unixen typically only extends to the kernel and possibly the display render/compose. You could expect Apple to be able to introduce an equivalent.
 

Offline polyp2000

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2017, 07:14:59 PM »
Quote from: NorthWay;833682
I would nominate datatypes. The unix side lacks the whip swinger to introduce it at the higher ends of the display stack and make it standard - anything visual is contributed by so many parties. And don't forget all the other files types it handles which can be taken care of by non-display parts.
This is a whole-OS interface and your average unixen typically only extends to the kernel and possibly the display render/compose. You could expect Apple to be able to introduce an equivalent.


This is very much a personal preference / viewpoint thing . From another angle it could be seen as a negative thing that AmigaOS has them so close to the display stack. I suspect if it was developed today that wouldnt be the case.

Offline number6

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2017, 07:17:26 PM »
Quote from: kreciu;833675
Community selects leader that serves this community = democracy. The better leader, the better community (and opposite). Leader: General, Capitan, President, CEO, PI, Boss, Capitan Picard... having "bad/good" leadership will not equal - lack of it :).

Who is in charge of this what is happening with AmigaOS? I can't identify ONE person that is responsible for "direction" of development. What are GOALS in AmigaOS development? Did I missed something? Saying "it is a hobby" will simply create more and more dilutions of efforts. It is called entropy :).


The last post I can locate from Hyperion Entertainment CVBA director Costel Mincea on AW:
Source
Title in sig still shows "AmigaOS4 development team member"

Whereas:
Source
Title in sig shows "AmigaOS Development Team Lead"

Hope that helps re:AmigaOS4.x

#6
 

guest11527

  • Guest
Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #88 on: December 01, 2017, 08:31:27 PM »
Quote from: NorthWay;833682
I would nominate datatypes. The unix side lacks the whip swinger to introduce it at the higher ends of the display stack and make it standard - anything visual is contributed by so many parties.

Oh, there are certainly abstraction layers for such data types. Unfortunately - and this is a typical Linux thing - so many multiply different that solve so many multiply different problems that it is close to useless. There is some datatype system in the LibreOffice world. There is one in the Gnome world, and the gnome-streamer system, there is a mime-type system, that is - how typical - only used inconsistently, so you have one selection mechanism for the desktop, and another one in the browser.

That's the problem, everybody develops "the best plugin system", without looking left or right, re-inventing the wheel. Sounds familiar?
 

Offline gregthecanuck

Re: Request about OS Development
« Reply #89 on: December 02, 2017, 12:42:28 AM »
And let us not forget logical volumes!

Windows tried to do it with "libraries" but in true MS fashion made it complicated/unusable from command-line.