Very hard to understand

[danbeaver]

Was that before or after the Hyperion bankrupsy announcement? You also forgot to mention Timberwolf, based on Firefox v4, which should be .

Bankruptcy?

[Tripitaka]

Bankruptcy?

Hyperion Entertainment Cvba in Sint-Agatha-Berchem (Brussel) was declared bankrupt by the court in Brussel on 27-01-2015. The appointed curator is Bert Dehandschutter. The company number is 466380552.

If A-EON hasn't bought OS4 yet I'm sure they will so I doubt if this is any concern, more likely just a way of bill dodging.

[Lionheart]

That's no hypocrisy as CUSA never made any real Amiga products.

Neither did A-Eon.  

CUSA's Amiga Mini was a quad-core 3.5 GHz Intel Core i7-2700K with 16 GB of DDR3 RAM, running a Linux operating system capable of emulating Amiga for $2,495 (lowered to $1,995 shortly after).  

But I guess it's not a real Amiga to you unless it has an out of production 1.8Ghz dual core PA6T-1682M PowerPC processor, 4GB(Max) of DDR2 ram,  with Hyperion's OS4, a 32-bit OS running on a 64-bit system that can't even use the second core and that is about as real an Amiga as AROS, MorphOS, or anything else capable of emulating Amiga, for $3,000.

Well that's not really your problem now is it? If you are not interested in the products they make why does this even concern you? Now before you dig a big hole for yourself, some of those "fanatics in the community" are the very people who are doing real work developing Amiga software. All Amiga flavors benefit from porting between themselves. Without OS4 you will have less, not more.

It's a problem for the community in general.  Amiga users would be better off supporting AROS than to set themselves up for failure and disappointment supporting another failed company using the Amiga trademark. And when I say 'fanatics' I'm referring to brand worshipers who are the equivalent of the cult members that support Apple.

If, as I suspect, you think we would achieve more by all getting behind one flavor in particular and maybe get some kind of mass appeal again then you are of course quite deluded. I've no doubt that we would all love to see any Amiga OS on top but it's not going to happen. Perhaps if someone had several hundred million and decided to build an FPGA memristor (mrFPGA) based home computer that used an Amigalike OS then perhaps that could happen but frankly I don't see any other tech out there that is radical enough to cut into the market place and re-establish the Amiga as a popular home platform oozing power and elegance other than that, so don't get your hopes up.

Do you think there would be a Haiku if BeOS was still around?  I don't expect any 'Amiga' OS to be on top.  I expect us to be better than we currently are. If you don't have a radical technology you need an innovative solution.  You want Amiga back in the home?  With the right operating system and a single-board computer running an ARM processor (think Raspberry Pi only better), you could create a multimedia set-top-box that could function as both a game console and a video streaming device and that could even be built by the user or sold for less than $100.

[matthey]

A-Eon delivered on their promises? Talk about selective memory.
The thing was supposed to come out in July of 2010 to coincide with the 25th anniversary of the Amiga 1000 release. Instead it arrives 18 months late and only partially functional with a moniker of First Contact.

Meanwhile, no Xorro add-ons and still not fully functional. Just sayin' is all.

A-Eon didn't give up and they came through at least. It's not easy to build high quality hardware (or produce good software), especially before becoming experienced. It's important to choose good business partners and it looks like Hyperion let them down. I wonder if Hyperion had financial problems slowing them up even back then.

Hyperion Entertainment Cvba in Sint-Agatha-Berchem (Brussel) was declared bankrupt by the court in Brussel on 27-01-2015. The appointed curator is Bert Dehandschutter. The company number is 466380552.

If A-EON hasn't bought OS4 yet I'm sure they will so I doubt if this is any concern, more likely just a way of bill dodging.

I think the bankruptcy question was due to my spelling and not not knowing about THE bankruptcy. It's odd that the Linux Mint spell checker doesn't always work.

I don't think Hyperion will disappear if the Amiga Inc. contract depends on their existence. Of course, A-Eon could now be a majority shareholder in Hyperion making Hyperion a software house for A-Eon.

Do you think there would be a Haiku if BeOS was still around?  I don't expect any 'Amiga' OS to be on top.  I expect us to be better than we currently are. If you don't have a radical technology you need an innovative solution.  You want Amiga back in the home?  With the right operating system and a single-board computer running an ARM processor (think Raspberry Pi only better), you could create a multimedia set-top-box that could function as both a game console and a video streaming device and that could even be built by the user or sold for less than $100.

We have experienced 68k programmers and enthusiasts not ARM programmers. The 68k is better. Look at RiscOS which has major ARM incompatibility problems due to 26 bit to 32 bit PC on the ARM, at least 3 modes of operation (original, Thumb 1, Thumb 2, and now ARMv8) and hundreds of different variations and configurations of ARM processors. 68000 programs which are 32 bit clean (minus M$ AmigaBasic and a handful of other programs) still work everywhere because the 68k had 32 bit address registers, a 32 bit PC and 32 bit capable addressing modes from the beginning. We have less baggage, much better code density (RiscOS ROMs are 4MB vs the largest 1MB Roms for a 68k Amiga which holds a lot) and the 68k is strong in single core and memory performance. The RiscOS has splits also with the original Acorn, RISCOS Ltd. and RISC OS OPEN. Only RISC OS OPEN has been able to advance far enough to run on the Rasberry Pi. They are struggling to add preemptive multitasking in a compatible way let alone multi-threading or SMP support. The AmigaOS is in much better shape than the RiscOS but they have tons of new cheap harware which means they probably will add more users than the AmigaOS despite the AmigaOS being significantly superior, even in 68k form. All we need is more modern cheap 68k hardware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS

[Tripitaka]

Neither did A-Eon.  .

Depends on how you look at it.

CUSA's Amiga Mini was a quad-core 3.5 GHz Intel Core i7-2700K with 16 GB of DDR3 RAM, running a Linux operating system capable of emulating Amiga for $2,495 (lowered to $1,995 shortly after).  

Yup, overpriced and I can build the same model for less..... your point exactly?

But I guess it's not a real Amiga to you unless it has an out of production 1.8Ghz dual core PA6T-1682M PowerPC processor, 4GB(Max) of DDR2 ram,  with Hyperion's OS4, a 32-bit OS running on a 64-bit system that can't even use the second core and that is about as real an Amiga as AROS, MorphOS, or anything else capable of emulating Amiga, for $3,000.

Oh, I see... so you don't consider AROS or MorphOS as Amiga's either. :/

It's a problem for the community in general.  Amiga users would be better off supporting AROS...

Whoah there cowboy, I thought you didn't consider AROS machines to be Amigas..... try engaging your brain before you type.

..than to set themselves up for failure and disappointment supporting another failed company using the Amiga trademark.

Oh you mean like CUSA.

And when I say 'fanatics' I'm referring to brand worshipers who are the equivalent of the cult members that support Apple.

No no no no no... NO! Don't even start that rubbish with me. Just ask around the OS4 community, I doubt that you will find many who are OS4 only. That myth is an invention of those who are deluded enough into thinking that lumping an amigalike OS on top of existing mainstream hardware will somehow get Amigas back into homes without thinking through whether that device will really be an Amiga at all. People like CUSA.

Do you think there would be a Haiku if BeOS was still around?

I don't care, the comparison is moot, this is the Amiga market not the BeOS one.

I don't expect any 'Amiga' OS to be on top.  I expect us to be better than we currently are.

How long are you willing to wait for that? LMFAO.

If you don't have a radical technology you need an innovative solution.

I'm a designer, I look forward to hearing your innovative solution.

You want Amiga back in the home?

I got a few already, as for the mass market I couldn't give a flying...

With the right operating system and a single-board computer running an ARM processor (think Raspberry Pi only better), you could create a multimedia set-top-box that could function as both a game console and a video streaming device and that could even be built by the user or sold for less than $100.

.......yeesss....It's called a Steam box. What was your innovative solution again?

[wawrzon]

I thought you didn't consider AROS machines to be Amigas.

nothing wrong with calling things by name. aros is not amiga. its aros. it may though be used on an amiga and its worth support.

[Tripitaka]

nothing wrong with calling things by name. aros is not amiga. its aros. it may though be used on an amiga and its worth support.

Ssshhhh! Stop spoiling my fun. XD

But seriously, I consider AROS, MorphOS and OS4 all as Amiga derivatives and all worthy of support if you are interested in them. I'm not against any of them

[Lionheart]

Yup, overpriced and I can build the same model for less..... your point exactly?

It's overpriced, emulates Amiga, and yet is still more powerful and cheaper than the X1000.  And unlike the X1000 it isn't running a processor with a dead end road map.  

Oh, I see... so you don't consider AROS or MorphOS as Amiga's either. :/

I said OS4 is about as much an Amiga as AROS and MorphOS.   They're derivatives of Amiga, just like OS4, that have been around longer but don't get the same respect from some people in the community because they're not carrying the Amiga name and currently being sold with $3,000 computers running off of 10+ year old technology.

Oh you mean like CUSA.

I said Amiga users would be better off not setting themselves  up for failure and disappointment supporting another failed company  using the Amiga trademark.  Yes, that would include CUSA.  However, CUSA never had much support from the community and just like A-Eon, ACube, and Hyperion ...Amiga, Inc. and Bill McEwen still profited off of them through licensing fees.

No no no no no... NO! Don't even start that rubbish with me. Just ask  around the OS4 community, I doubt that you will find many who are OS4  only.  That myth is an invention of those who are deluded enough into thinking that lumping an amigalike OS on top of existing mainstream hardware will somehow get Amigas back into homes without thinking through whether that device will really be an Amiga at all. People like CUSA.

So does that make AROS running on an x86 or MorphOS running on a Power Mac less Amiga for not running on an expensive $3,000 computer using an out-of-production PowerPC processor?   What makes a computer using an ATX motherboard, PC power supply, and a PowerPC processor an Amiga device when Commodore never produced a single PowerPC based Amiga?

I got a few already, as for the mass market I couldn't give a flying...

Of course you don't.  You just expect a company to put money into research and development to design a computer using a processor with a dead end road map that they can't mass-produce all so you can feel like you own the latest Amiga device.

.......yeesss....It's called a Steam box. What was your innovative solution again?

No, it's a video game console for homebrew development.  A Steam Box is a line of computers being made by Valve that will include either their Stream client or StreamOS, and be released sometime around the end of 2015.

[Lionheart]

We have experienced 68k programmers and enthusiasts not ARM programmers. The 68k is better. Look at RiscOS which has major ARM incompatibility problems due to 26 bit to 32 bit PC on the ARM, at least 3 modes of operation (original, Thumb 1, Thumb 2, and now ARMv8) and hundreds of different variations and configurations of ARM processors. 68000 programs which are 32 bit clean (minus M$ AmigaBasic and a handful of other programs) still work everywhere because the 68k had 32 bit address registers, a 32 bit PC and 32 bit capable addressing modes from the beginning. We have less baggage, much better code density (RiscOS ROMs are 4MB vs the largest 1MB Roms for a 68k Amiga which holds a lot) and the 68k is strong in single core and memory performance. The RiscOS has splits also with the original Acorn, RISCOS Ltd. and RISC OS OPEN. Only RISC OS OPEN has been able to advance far enough to run on the Rasberry Pi. They are struggling to add preemptive multitasking in a compatible way let alone multi-threading or SMP support. The AmigaOS is in much better shape than the RiscOS but they have tons of new cheap harware which means they probably will add more users than the AmigaOS despite the AmigaOS being significantly superior, even in 68k form. All we need is more modern cheap 68k hardware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS

Linux, Raspbmc, RetroPie, Firefox OS, and even Plan 9 can run on Raspberry Pi.  Raspbian is probably the most advanced though.

As for 68k, it would have to be emulated through software as it would be too expensive to design a system using hardware emulation. Someone has already made a Full Speed Amiga 500 Emulator with DispmanX for the Raspberry Pi and even Raspberry Pi CEO Eben Upton has said he'd like to see Amiga emulation on the Raspberry Pi 2:

He told TechRadar: "I really want to see Amiga emulation on this  thing - they were beautiful machines. The original Pi is almost good  enough to run some Amiga 500 games if you turn the hardware fidelity  down, but you can't get the later ones that rely heavily on the exact  cycle timings.


"I think this [Raspberry Pi 2] will do a good Amiga 500 job, and there's a chance it could run Amiga 1200 games too."

Source: http://www.techradar.com/us/news/computing-components/peripherals/raspberry-pi-ceo-i-really-want-to-see-amiga-emulation-on-raspberry-pi-2-1283093

[kolla]

Plan9 is way more advanced than Linux, just saying

[matthey]

Linux, Raspbmc, RetroPie, Firefox OS, and even Plan 9 can run on Raspberry Pi.  Raspbian is probably the most advanced though.

I'm aware of the multitude of OSs which are available for the Rasberry Pi due to the oppurtunites created by 5 million units and growing of cheap hardware. AROS ARM Pi could even grab a slice of the pie and become the most used AmigaOS if it can be improved quickly enough and packaged in a convenient way. AROS is probably one of the most efficient and leanest OSs available which is good but SMP support in AROS, like most of the other Pi OSs, would be the real winner where multiple cores are available. AROS Pi has more potential than the original RiscOS Pi but neither are likely to crack the top 5 most used Pi OSs even though this could mean tens of thousands of new users for them.

As for 68k, it would have to be emulated through software as it would be too expensive to design a system using hardware emulation. Someone has already made a Full Speed Amiga 500 Emulator with DispmanX for the Raspberry Pi and even Raspberry Pi CEO Eben Upton has said he'd like to see Amiga emulation on the Raspberry Pi 2:

The Amiga emulation on the Pi is relatively weak because even the Pi 2 has lackluster single core and memory performance (due to the low electrical power RISC CPU design). The Pi and Pi 2 are pretty efficient for web browsing and other tasks where multiple cores can be used but an old Pentium III CPU is likely to outperform it with a quick compile of older single core games. Games and programs can sometimes be optimized and fixed up but this takes a lot of time. It would be possible to make a Pi like 68k CPU based board with competive performance and more convenience features (wi-fi, SATA, FPGA, RTC?) but costing probably in the $75-$150 U.S. price range. An enhanced 68k would have strong single core and memory performance like the x86/x86_64 but could have a much smaller memory footprint, even smaller than the Pi's Thumb2. The 2nd generation of FPGA Amiga hardware is already faster than most 68k original Amiga hardware. A 3rd generation could be clocked up and the cost reduced if produced in quantity. I believe it could become competitive in performance to hardware like the Pi. IMO, the AmigaOS would have a much better chance trying to sell in quantity on 68k hardware than trying to play catchup with OSs where developers have years of experience optimizing for the host CPU.

[kolla]

Matthey has a weird idea that about 10% of all raspberry pi sales would have been m68k if an equivalent had existed, because for some reason he believes 10% of the pi buyers really only want to run old AmigaOS on them. I find this idea ... crazy. I own a raspberry pi and I have not even bothered running anything amigoid on it, I just used it to play with RISCOS. When I get home, I want to boot strap it bigendian Linux and build AROS hosted with DOpus Magellan.

[kolla]

Unless a new m68k provides a proper MMU which makes it possible to also use modern operating systems, a Cheery Pi has extremely limited use, as there are already plenty of FPGA systems around that can run AmigaOS. Oh btw, AROS will be the most widely used amigoid system around anyways.

[Tripitaka]

It's overpriced, emulates Amiga, and yet is still more powerful and cheaper than the X1000.  And unlike the X1000 it isn't running a processor with a dead end road map.  

Overpriced depends on how much it cost to make but it is more than I would pay (or you obviously). However I have no issues with others buying it or indeed with it's very existence.

I said OS4 is about as much an Amiga as AROS and MorphOS.   They're derivatives of Amiga, just like OS4, that have been around longer but don't get the same respect from some people in the community because they're not carrying the Amiga name and currently being sold with $3,000 computers running off of 10+ year old technology.

Yes, they are all derivatives, I used that word too and it's a fair thing to say. As for AROS and MorphOS not getting as much respect, I must disagree. I have a great deal of respect for such efforts and I think many others do too. By the way, MorphOS hardware is a bit dead-end too, not an immediate problem but one that will need addressing. Do you really think OS4 gets more respect? It's got a fair few haters too I'de say.

I said Amiga users would be better off not setting themselves  up for failure and disappointment supporting another failed company  using the Amiga trademark.  Yes, that would include CUSA.  However, CUSA never had much support from the community and just like A-Eon, ACube, and Hyperion ...Amiga, Inc. and Bill McEwen still profited off of them through licensing fees.

Oh I see. Well yes I'm sure they did, sadly Amiga Inc. don't seem to care who they licence as we all know . I must admit we are often let down by the promises of companies using the Amiga name but OS4 is as legitimate an Amiga derivative as MorphOS and the X1000 is at least an attempt at new hardware for said OS even if it is pricey.

So does that make AROS running on an x86 or MorphOS running on a Power Mac less Amiga for not running on an expensive $3,000 computer using an out-of-production PowerPC processor?

No, never said it did. In fact if CUSA had actually supplied all their "Amigas" with AROS from the start they may well have been received very differently.

 What makes a computer using an ATX motherboard, PC power supply, and a PowerPC processor an Amiga device when Commodore never produced a single PowerPC based Amiga?

No, but (as you well know, or should) PPC hardware came onto the Amiga scene before the demise of Commodore (though not by much) and was well received at the time. The Blizzard PPC boards received rave reviews at the time. I get kind of sick of these sort of comments, I remember those days and PPC was seen as a natural path that gave Amiga users a huge power boost. Commodore may not have made a PPC Machine but they did allow others to make PPC accelerators and a lot of people at the time expected the Amiga to go in that direction.

Of course you don't.  You just expect a company to put money into research and development to design a computer using a processor with a dead end road map that they can't mass-produce all so you can feel like you own the latest Amiga device.

Not at all, I expect nothing but the Amiga to suffer a slow and painful death, sad as that is. I HOPE that this will not be the case. As for owning the latest Amiga device... that's not me at all. I just don't have the problem with others doing it that you clearly do. For the record I'de buy a SAM over an X1000 any day and I haven't done that yet as I have other far more important things to buy (A 3D printer and a laser cutter for a start).

No, it's a video game console for homebrew development.  A Steam Box is a line of computers being made by Valve that will include either their Stream client or StreamOS, and be released sometime around the end of 2015.

I assure you I am well aware of what a Steam box is, I have over 150 games on Steam and growing by the week. My point still stands however, I cannot see any serious in-roads into the home for the Amiga anytime soon and I see no reason at all why a video game console for homebrew would really make a difference. There are plenty of homebrew kits for existing consoles already, what is your unique selling point?

IMHO I think Natami was the most interesting project for a long time (hardware wise). Sadly .. well I'm sure you know that's not looking at all likely now.

Let's be honest, as things currently stand the Amiga is a small hobby market and nothing more, It's unlikely to ever be anything more again. Like so many others who own genuine Commodore machines and remember those halcyon days this breaks my heart.

I will say this though, I seriously think AROS will outlast all the other Amigalikes in the end but either way the choice yours to make. Yours, mine and any other Amigan. I'm OK with that, I wish all Amiga derivatives luck for the future and that includes OS4. As for X1000, well if you don't like it don't buy it but don't hate on others who do, it's their cash.

[matthey]

Matthey has a weird idea that about 10% of all raspberry pi sales would have been m68k if an equivalent had existed, because for some reason he believes 10% of the pi buyers really only want to run old AmigaOS on them. I find this idea ... crazy. I own a raspberry pi and I have not even bothered running anything amigoid on it, I just used it to play with RISCOS. When I get home, I want to boot strap it bigendian Linux and build AROS hosted with DOpus Magellan.

That's not what I said but rather this:

I bet at least 10% of Pi sales have gone to people that would prefer to have an Amiga computer or 68k CPU but only Raspberry Pi was offered instead of Cherry Pi. Let's say only 3% would have payed up for the Amiga or 68k which would be 150,000 potential Amiga users.

If someone wanted to play games and browse the internet, they could buy a 5 year old PC for twice the cost of the Pi which would offer more performance and play more games. The numbers I used assume that most Raspberry Pi owners want something different, open, more efficient, and/or cheap. Do you think the Pi market is mostly hobbyists? Do you think that maybe these users are not content with current computer offerings? Do you think that Pi purchasers might be more likely to like alternative OSs and CPUs like the AmigaOS and 68k?

Unless a new m68k provides a proper MMU which makes it possible to also use modern operating systems, a Cheery Pi has extremely limited use, as there are already plenty of FPGA systems around that can run AmigaOS. Oh btw, AROS will be the most widely used amigoid system around anyways.

ThoR said it should be possible to make a compatibility layer for a 68040/68060 MMU to a newer 68k MMU. I expect he would not only help design the new MMU but even write and extend the software support in the MuLibs and write the compatibility layer if we had a real project with a real plan. I want 68k compatibility and a more advanced MMU, so if it was up to me, this area would be researched with a high likely hood of adding it.

I agree that AROS is the most likely AmigaOS to succeed (and survive) unless current Amiga businesses change their strategies and get their act together (not likely). Although AROS is behind most of the other Amiga OSs in many ways, AROS advances and source code have been very beneficial to the other Amiga OSs and would be even more important if trying to support another CPU. AROS can stand on it's own but is at a deficit as far as software, except for on 68k hardware where Amiga executables run but AROS 68k needs more optimization and/or faster 68k hardware. Using UAE for games isn't bad but it's limiting for apps where ARexx, the clipboard, resources, etc. can't be shared.

[kolla]

I think almost 100% of Pi buyers are people who buy it with intention of creating various cheap solutions based on Linux. Within certain alternative OS camps, some very few buyers get them to develop and test out their OSes, but these people are extremely few. Even fewer are people who explicitly buy it to actually run alternative OSes. Who would buy a Cherry Pi only capable of running AmigaOS? There are already quite a few options, what would Cherry Pi offer over MiST, that already covers two marked segments? The only way to atract more users is by having a darn fast and darn modern, full fledged m68k, capable of running Linux too. Nobody in the real world cares about Thor an his libs for AmigaOS - "most people" only care for Amiga in terms of playing old games, and Raspberry Pi does this fine already (as does a Nintendo Wii for that matter, or whatever game console of the last two generations) - Pretty much only "community people" are interested in fast m68k to run OS3.x and old applications, and even among us, a large percentage are already happy with UAE and do not see the point of a Cherry Pi.