Philosophical Question - Amiguing

[Linde]

I point out it's all a question of degree to which you respond with a question. You then go on to ignore the actual example of the degree between people and other animals by pretending it's a straw man.

I didn't say that you made a straw man. I'm saying that if the part I quoted was meant to be used as an argument, you made a straw man, because you certainly aren't arguing with anyone here.

Clearly, you are one who doesn't like his world view challenged and I'm wasting my time. I can think of better ways to spend it. Ciao!

"You clearly don't like like to have your world view challenged" *runs off from discussion*

You then return to your argument that, because some animals might abstract, man is no better than them. This is like saying that because baby can lift five pounds, Superman's no more special despite his ability to lift five million.

I am not saying that man is no better than animals on the grounds of their ability to abstract. I'm saying that man is no better than animals because being able to converse in abstract concepts isn't inherently more valuable than being able to live off insects. It's _you_ who try to decide which is better on the basis of obviously subjective values. If you are going to talk about which is "better" you're going to have to apply some sort of value system, and unless that value system is somehow objective, you are just explaining your opinion, not arguing with any sort of factual basis.

@ At all who are arguing that Special somehow equals Superior.

See above, you aren't exactly consistent with this yourself.

So, a parent who thinks his child is special is somehow arrogant?

Parents are arrogant when it comes to their children. Also, bears do **** in the woods. Not that the message you were replying to had anything to do with what parents think of their children, but it'd make another nice textbook example of a straw man.

[psxphill]

It is written many times in the Qur'an and also narrated in the traditions of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh&hf) and his legitimate successors (The 12 Imams) that man was placed on Earth purely as it's vice-regent with the sole task of taking care of it.

I think we have a moral obligation to take care of it, it is in our interest to keep the environment comfortable for ourselves. Religion is a good vehicle for applying moral values to people.
 
But I don't believe that man was placed on earth as our evolution was based on sexual partner selection of other species and god doesn't control what we do.
 
We've not been around for very long in comparison to the rest of the earth, other species have come and gone and others have survived. We're not even the most complex http://www.skeptical-science.com/science/paris-japonica-complex-dna/ http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2000/02.10/onion.html
 
For anyone that doesn't believe in evolution, research into fruit flies (which share a lot of DNA with man) shows how quickly mutations can occur http://www.orkin.com/flies/fruit-fly/fruit-fly-genetics/ http://www.indiana.edu/~oso/lessons/Genetics/Drosophila.html
 

If you are going to talk about which is "better" you're going to have to apply some sort of value system, and unless that value system is somehow objective, you are just explaining your opinion, not arguing with any sort of factual basis.

The value system exists, we live in it. Eating bugs isn't going to get you laid, so you're not going to have children. Keeping your DNA going is the only mark of success.

[nicholas]

I think we have a moral obligation to take care of it & religion is a good vehicle for applying moral values to people.
 
But I don't believe that man was placed on earth as our evolution was based on sexual partner selection of other species and god doesn't control what we do.

What makes you think Islam is at odds with natural selection?

[psxphill]

What makes you think Islam is at odds with natural selection?

Are you saying your god just kept tinkering until he got something that he liked the look of and then stopped?
i.e. killed off people that looked funny with a landslide or something until the correct couples mated?
 

The Hebrew Bible (the Jewish religion) says literally "6 time periods"

No it doesn't say that literally as it wasn't written in English. Someone may have translated the original text as "6 time periods". We weren't around at the time, so god must have told us. You'd have thought if he was going to tell us how long it took, he might actually tell us in a way that we could actually know what it meant. Otherwise, why bother?
 
The millennium falcon making the kessel run in 12 parsecs has at least been resolved, because the ship can fly a shorter route than anyone else (George Lucas never claimed that a parsec was a unit of time, people assumed he did). It's a pity God hasn't paid a visit lately to clear up a few things. He appeared a lot more when the only entertainment people had was sitting around a fire re-telling stories they had heard.

[nicholas]

Are you saying your god just kept tinkering until he got something that he liked the look of and then stopped?
i.e. killed off people that looked funny with a landslide or something until the correct couples mated?

I've already posted a link previously in this thread to the wiki entry on the Shi'a Scholar Nasir al-Din al-Tusi who "discovered" the theory of Natural Selection 800yrs before Darwin claimed it as his own.

You are blinded by your own ignorance and I really don't know why I'm bothering to carry on talking to you.

[psxphill]

I've already posted a link previously in this thread to the wiki entry on the Shi'a Scholar Nadir al-Din al-Tusi who "discovered" the theory of Natural Selection 800yrs before Darwin claimed it as his own.
 
You are blinded by your own ignorance and I really don't know why I'm bothering to carry on talking to you.

Throwing insults means you lose. Why be hateful? You know that I don't believe in any religion invented by man and never will, no matter how long it's been going on or what their religious texts say. I understand that I can't change your mind & I don't particularly want to. I think it's important to have things you believe in and I wouldn't want to take that from you even if I could. However I do enjoy finding out about other peoples viewpoints.
 
Saying who came up with the theory of evolution doesn't answer my question. How did God influence our natural selection, did he aim for us or were we a mistake & how does it tie up with the Quran? If you can't have a civil conversation then there is no point.
 
I found this http://thedistortedreligion.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/the-quranic-concept-of-evolution-part-i-natural-selection-or-divine-will/ which kinda actually says that while the Quran says that evolution happened, it wasn't natural selection as it was god that controlled the process. I don't know how accurate the site is (it appears to be written by an atheist anyway), but if it's true then I would like to know how god did that.

[commodorejohn]

But I don't believe that man was placed on earth as our evolution was based on sexual partner selection of other species and god doesn't control what we do.

God creating man does not go inextricably hand-in-hand with God controlling our actions. Just sayin'.

(Unless you're a Calvinist.)

[Iggy]

What makes you think Islam is at odds with natural selection?

Thanks Nik,
I don't have any problem reconciling religion with natural selection either.
Apparently I now have to accept the weight of a lot of other believers with rigid interpretations.

[nicholas]

Throwing insults means you lose. Why be hateful?

I wasn't aware that correcting your wrong assumptions about Islam is considered "throwing insults".

You know that I don't believe in any religion invented by man and never will

Neither do I.

, no matter how long it's been going on or what their religious texts say. I understand that I can't change your mind & I don't particularly want to.

I don't want to convert you to Islam either.  Even if I did it's not up to me but The One.

However,  you have made several incorrect assumptions about authentic Islam and when people do this I will always correct them.  I'm not trying to convince you what I believe is true, but correct your assumptions about what I believe.

I think it's important to have things you believe in and I wouldn't want to take that from you even if I could. However I do enjoy finding out about other peoples viewpoints.

Glad to hear it and ditto.
 

Saying who came up with the theory of evolution doesn't answer my question. How did God influence our natural selection

Why does it matter how He did or did not do it? The facts are it does happen and is still happening today. Evolution has not stopped.

I'm a Shi'a so this is a particularly important part of my theology, in that my Imam(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh) will not return until the Shi'a have evolved to a much different state than we are currently in. Be that spiritual, physical or both.

, did he aim for us or were we a mistake & how does it tie up with the Quran?

Adam(pbuh) (The famous one) was not the first hominid on this earth, not even close to being the first.  There are narrations that state something along the lines of 50,000 species of Adams came before he did.

If you can't have a civil conversation then there is no point.
I found this http://thedistortedreligion.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/the-quranic-concept-of-evolution-part-i-natural-selection-or-divine-will/ which kinda actually says that while the Quran says that evolution happened, it wasn't natural selection as it was god that controlled the process. I don't know how accurate the site is (it appears to be written by an atheist anyway), but if it's true then I would like to know how god did that.

I've given that site a quick look over and it appears to be written by someone who follows a relatively modern cult known by various names but usually Quran Aloner's or 19ers.  They believe in a new "prophet" called Rashad Khalifa and that all Muslims before them are infidels.  Not unlike the Wahabbi cult currently occupying Hijaz (It's not Saudi Arabia and never will be)

I feel like I shouldn't have to state this but the Qur'an is a book of theology and ethics not a peer-reviewed scientific journal.  It is a book of inctructions on how to live ones life and also contains historical records.

Also, the Qur'an is nothing without explanation of it's verses.  Those qualified to explain it's verses are the immediate blood family of Prophet Muhammad and no one else.  Particularly not random cultists and wahabbis on the interwebs.

http://al-islam.org
http://en.rafed.net/islamic-books-magazine

[nicholas]

Thanks Nik,
I don't have any problem reconciling religion with natural selection either.
Apparently I now have to accept the weight of a lot of other believers with rigid interpretations.

Rigid thinking does nobody any good.

I truly am worried sick about my son when he's an adult and I'm no longer around as I think his inability to see things from anyone else's POV will severely hamper him and make him very vulnerable.

[Mrs Beanbag]

There seems to be a lot of worry about why God didn't tell us exactly how long it took. Well firstly because it doesn't even matter. It's just a narrative device. Obsessing over the literal meaning of it completely misses the point. Actually if anything it's an etiological myth that explains why we have a seven-day week with one day off, as such it gives us far more useful information about how to live our lives than "13.8 billion years" does.

This latter we were able to find out by ourselves anyway, which is part of the fun of existing. You'll be complaining next that God didn't do your crossword puzzle for you.

Whether God "controlled" evolution or not, I don't know, or why it matters. God created the laws of nature, so He created evolution. But if He does control it at all, well mutations are essentially the result of quantum probabilities, which due to Bell's theorem aren't predictable using any information in the Universe, so if they're not truly random (which to my mind is absurd) this information must be coming from outside the Universe.

[nicholas]

There seems to be a lot of worry about why God didn't tell us exactly how long it took. Well firstly because it doesn't even matter. It's just a narrative device. Obsessing over the literal meaning of it completely misses the point. Actually if anything it's an etiological myth that explains why we have a seven-day week with one day off, as such it gives us far more useful information about how to live our lives than "13.8 billion years" does.

This latter we were able to find out by ourselves anyway, which is part of the fun of existing. You'll be complaining next that God didn't do your crossword puzzle for you.

Whether God "controlled" evolution or not, I don't know, or why it matters. God created the laws of nature, so He created evolution. But if He does control it at all, well mutations are essentially the result of quantum probabilities, which due to Bell's theorem aren't predictable using any information in the Universe, so if they're not truly random (which to my mind is absurd) this information must be coming from outside the Universe.

I like this.

[zipper]

Time to move this to CH!

[Iggy]

There seems to be a lot of worry about why God didn't tell us exactly how long it took. Well firstly because it doesn't even matter. It's just a narrative device. Obsessing over the literal meaning of it completely misses the point. Actually if anything it's an etiological myth that explains why we have a seven-day week with one day off, as such it gives us far more useful information about how to live our lives than "13.8 billion years" does.

This latter we were able to find out by ourselves anyway, which is part of the fun of existing. You'll be complaining next that God didn't do your crossword puzzle for you.

Whether God "controlled" evolution or not, I don't know, or why it matters. God created the laws of nature, so He created evolution. But if He does control it at all, well mutations are essentially the result of quantum probabilities, which due to Bell's theorem aren't predictable using any information in the Universe, so if they're not truly random (which to my mind is absurd) this information must be coming from outside the Universe.

Yes, that was good.
Something binds this (and the other) universes at (and below) a quantum level.
And it seems to be based on order.
And if you study evolution closely, you'll notice that not all the mutations appear random.

And, no, I don't believe God actively plays with our DNA.

[A6000]

What a pointless thread this is,
It is nostalgia.
No its not.
Yes it is.
I gave up and jumped to the last page and now it is an argument about bloody religion.

[paul1981]

Neither do I.

I'm pretty sure psxphill was trying to express his belief that all religions are an invention of man. Just thought I'd point that out incase you missed it.