Philosophical Question - Amiguing

[slayer]

Exactly. There's this notion that anybody who prefers older things can only be doing so out of irrational nostalgia, because...blind faith that new is always inherently better than old, I guess. Question society's blind devotion to Progress (and they always confuse mere motion with real progress,) and you're just some stupid romantic who must be afraid of change! Certainly it can't possibly be that you actually, honestly believe that a newer development is a step backwards or anything.

Same reason I don't call my A500-A4000 Amigas Retro machines; I call them older Amiga models.

[Linde]

As I've pointed out, it's a question of degree. As John has pointed out, where do you draw the line? The practical use of a tool as described might be a level of abstraction, but it's only one level removed from the practical.

How exactly do you measure the number of levels of abstraction?

Now, how many birds can understand the abstract concepts of logic gates and computer buses as a method of communication between devices designed to perform functions not found in the natural world? How many birds can understand the concept of a modem, or envision an array capable of arranging pixels that use photons against a photosensitive surface to display symbols that represent the phonemes emitted by a species to convey the very concepts we are discussing now?

If you are trying to prove a point here, rest assured that no one here has said that birds are able to deal with concepts on the same level of abstraction as humans. If this is meant to be an argument, you've built a serious straw man.

For the first time in the history of life, a species now has the ability to not only understand itself, but the ability to control it's destiny unlike any before it.

I'm sure there have been many points in the history of life where a creature has had the ability to control its destiny unlike any before it. Humans didn't just pop out of the blue, as far as we can tell.

If that ain't special, I don't know what is.

That's special, but not inherently more special than any other unique capability of any other creature.

[Thorham]

If that ain't special, I don't know what is.

Calling yourself special is ridiculously arrogant.

[Mrs Beanbag]

There's another reason I remember reading somewhere, that dolphins don't have advanced civilisation: it's impossible to do chemistry underwater.

Also here is a video of a crow having fun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dWw9GLcOeA

[bloodline]

I'm not sure Humans do have the ability to control their own destiny... We perhaps have the potential to do so, but really we are mostly just slaves to the common animal functions of eating and trying to reproduce... And then patting ourselves on the back and marvelling at how easy we have made it to do these things.

[Mrs Beanbag]

I'm not sure Humans do have the ability to control their own destiny... We perhaps have the potential to do so, but really we are mostly just slaves to the common animal functions of eating and trying to reproduce... And then patting ourselves on the back and marvelling at how easy we have made it to do these things.

Alex has this on a T-shirt:
http://imgur.com/TuuyH

[psxphill]

Maybe it won't if you take the rest of my post into account.

Not really. The Quran says the universe was created in six days.
That information came from God & he was trying to give us information we didn't have. Whether he said it was a week, a year, a billion years would be irrelevant. He just needed to give the actual number.
 
Science has shown that it took a lot longer than six days, so people have redefined what God meant as a day.
 
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_33.html
 
Assuming God speaks to us in our language (how else could we understand him?) one would also expect him to use the same time measurements. A day/hour etc is a time measurement that we invented, suggesting that there is a universe day/hour etc that God didn't bother to mention would seem like an oversight.
 
However, for arguments sake he did use universe days instead of earth days. What other things could have been misunderstood? Wouldn't God have realised any mistakes that were made?
 
The conclusion on that page "Science has once again confirmed a fact revealed in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago." is incorrect. The "fact" revealed in the Quran was the universe was created in six days. Science hasn't confirmed that. There are scientific theories on the age of the universe that haven't been proved that when adjusted with another theory is sort of close. Similar to how Nostrodamus predictions can only be understood when misinterpreting them after an event has happened. http://listverse.com/2007/09/14/top-10-prophecies-of-nostradamus-debunked/

[Linde]

Not really. The Quran says the universe was created in six days.
That information came from God & he was trying to give us information we didn't have. Whether he said it was a week, a year, a billion years would be irrelevant. He just needed to give the actual number.
 
Science has shown that it took a lot longer than six days, so people have redefined what God meant as a day.
 
http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_33.html
 
Assuming God speaks to us in our language (how else could we understand him?) one would also expect him to use the same time measurements. A day/hour etc is a time measurement that we invented, suggesting that there is a universe day/hour etc that God didn't bother to mention would seem like an oversight.
 
However, for arguments sake he did use universe days instead of earth days. What other things could have been misunderstood? Wouldn't God have realised any mistakes that were made?
 
The conclusion on that page "Science has once again confirmed a fact revealed in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago." is incorrect. The "fact" revealed in the Quran was the universe was created in six days. Science hasn't confirmed that. There are scientific theories on the age of the universe that haven't been proved that when adjusted with another theory is sort of close. Similar to how Nostrodamus predictions can only be understood when misinterpreting them after an event has happened. http://listverse.com/2007/09/14/top-10-prophecies-of-nostradamus-debunked/

Hey, still didn't read my post? Nothing that I am saying is in conflict with any of this.

[Tripitaka]

Why should a day of the gods be a day from the human perspective? The Hindus count such time scales very differently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology

[nicholas]

The Arabic word 'ayyam' does not mean 'days', not even close, look it up in any respected Arabic lexicon.

As I said, you have no desire to learn anything about authentic Islam.

I could point you in the direction of an actual scholar who you could put your questions to but you aren't seriously interested so why should I bother.

To you your way and to me mine.

[nicholas]

Why should a day of the gods be a day from the human perspective? The Hindus count such time scales very differently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_cosmology

+1

To keep it off topic, a subject that interests me is the theory that Brahma and his consort Saraswati are in fact Abraham (pbuh) and his wife Sarah.

[nicholas]

I'm not sure Humans do have the ability to control their own destiny... We perhaps have the potential to do so, but really we are mostly just slaves to the common animal functions of eating and trying to reproduce... And then patting ourselves on the back and marvelling at how easy we have made it to do these things.

Very well put Matt, I think the main difference between homo-sapien sapien and the other animals is mans arrogance.

I mean just look at the name we gave ourselves, so arrogant we called our species wise and then once more just to stress the point.

Regarding controlling our own destiny, a man once asked Imam Ali (pbuh) how much free will we possess. He told the man "Stand on one leg", he did as he was told and then the Imam said "Now lift the other leg".

[Mrs Beanbag]

Not really. The Quran says the universe was created in six days.
That information came from God & he was trying to give us information we didn't have. Whether he said it was a week, a year, a billion years would be irrelevant. He just needed to give the actual number.

He didn't need to give us anything. The exact length of time it took to create the Universe isn't really important to how one lives one's life.

Ima quote Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE – c. 50 CE):

By "six days" Moses does not indicate a space of time in which      the world was made, but the principles of order and productivity      which governed its making

But you don't actually care what it means, it is convenient to take it literally so that you can ridicule it. Taking things literally wasn't invented until about the 18th century I think.

[nicholas]

He didn't need to give us anything. The exact length of time it took to create the Universe isn't really important to how one lives one's life.

Ima quote Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE – c. 50 CE):

By "six days" Moses does not indicate a space of time in which      the world was made, but the principles of order and productivity      which governed its making

But you don't actually care what it means, it is convenient to take it literally so that you can ridicule it. Taking things literally wasn't invented until about the 18th century I think.

My son will be five next month and he takes everything literally. He has a medical excuse though.

Speaking of the 18th century disease of literalism, one only has to look at the Wahabbis in Occupied Hijaz and the American Rapturists who both believe that every Muslim/Christian that came before them for the previous millennia are heretics.

[ChaosLord]

He didn't need to give us anything. The exact length of time it took to create the Universe isn't really important to how one lives one's life.

Ima quote Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE – c. 50 CE):

By "six days" Moses does not indicate a space of time in which      the world was made, but the principles of order and productivity      which governed its making

But you don't actually care what it means, it is convenient to take it literally so that you can ridicule it. Taking things literally wasn't invented until about the 18th century I think.

Just to be clear:
Philo of Alexandria was quoting a completely different book.  He wasn't talking about the Koran or Haddiths but the Hebrew Bible.

The Hebrew Bible (the Jewish religion) says literally "6 time periods" and ppl (usually atheists) "just assume" that it means "6 days" because "you know, its like obvious".

In fact "time period" can mean anything, a billion years, a million years.  Or if you are a Star Wars fan it can even mean a unit of distance like 7 parsecs.

[commodorejohn]

There's another reason I remember reading somewhere, that dolphins don't have advanced civilisation: it's impossible to do chemistry underwater.

I'm not asking to be shown dolphin monorails or something, here. There are plenty of ways that human intelligence can demonstrate itself in a visible, external fashion that don't require chemistry, hands, or anything else that dolphins don't have.