Philosophical Question - Amiguing

[commodorejohn]

There's another reason I remember reading somewhere, that dolphins don't have advanced civilisation: it's impossible to do chemistry underwater.

I'm not asking to be shown dolphin monorails or something, here. There are plenty of ways that human intelligence can demonstrate itself in a visible, external fashion that don't require chemistry, hands, or anything else that dolphins don't have.

[Mrs Beanbag]

I'm not asking to be shown dolphin monorails or something, here. There are plenty of ways that human intelligence can demonstrate itself in a visible, external fashion that don't require chemistry, hands, or anything else that dolphins don't have.

Coincidentally, this is in the news today:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23410137

But, supposing some other animal had a human level of intelligence - how would it manifest? Would it necessarily be something we would easily recognise? How would we know? We assume that anything intelligent would "be like us" but this is anthropocentric.

[nicholas]

Just to be clear:
Philo of Alexandria was quoting a completely different book.  He wasn't talking about the Koran or Haddiths but the Hebrew Bible.

The Hebrew Bible (the Jewish religion) says literally "6 time periods" and ppl (usually atheists) "just assume" that it means "6 days" because "you know, its like obvious".

In fact "time period" can mean anything, a billion years, a million years.  Or if you are a Star Wars fan it can even mean a unit of distance like 7 parsecs.

As does The Qur'an (Not Koran!) hence the following:

"[SIZE=-1]He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with  truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He  revealed the Torah and the Gospel." - Al-Qur'an 3:3
"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the  Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I  come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and  obey me." - Al-Qur'an 3:50
"[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their  footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah,  and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light,  confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance  and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil)." - Al-Qur'an 5:46

There are many more verses in a similar vein, so I think you get the picture.
[/SIZE]

[EDanaII]

@ Linde:

If you are trying to prove a point here, rest assured that no one here has said that birds are able to deal with concepts on the same level of abstraction as humans. If this is meant to be an argument, you've built a serious straw man.

With this comment it becomes quite clear to me that you are unwilling to see anyone else's point of view but your own.

I point out it's all a question of degree to which you respond with a question. You then go on to ignore the actual example of the degree between people and other animals by pretending it's a straw man. You then return to your argument that, because some animals might abstract, man is no better than them. This is like saying that because baby can lift five pounds, Superman's no more special despite his ability to lift five million.

Clearly, you are one who doesn't like his world view challenged and I'm wasting my time. I can think of better ways to spend it. Ciao!


@ Thorham:

Calling yourself special is ridiculously arrogant.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.



So, a parent who thinks his child is special is somehow arrogant? How about retro-computer users? Is their believe in the specialness of their favorite computer automatically make them arrogant? How about Labrador Retrievers? I have 1.5 Labradors and I think they're special dogs. Does that automatically make me arrogant? I can think of plenty other things that might, but simply thinking something is special because it has value? Inconceivable!


@ At all who are arguing that Special somehow equals Superior.

There seems to be a meme here held by some that Special equates to Superior. This is an erroneous thought. I can certainly see how some might think so, as there are those who do think their superiority grants them license to do as they please. Certainly, the Nazis, KKK, even Kings & Politicians have thought such things, so such a believe is not wrong.

But it is erroneous to assume that such thinking always leads to freedom to do as one pleases. I tend think differently. I believe that the very thing that sets us apart from all other creatures on this planet obligates us to become caretakers of this world. The human brain is the most powerful computer on the planet, and with great power comes great responsibility.

For the first time on this planet, there exists a species that can fight back against the very same things that brought extinction to others. We already resist drought and famine much better than other species. We've conquered disease in a way that no other has. We may even be able to avert, or at least mitigate, the next big disaster, like an asteroid. The dinosaurs, quite literally, never had a chance.

Once again, if that ain't special, I don't know what is. If the rest of you only want to dwell on the negative aspects of man, that's your right. Just don't expect all of us to fall into that trap as I prefer to look at "both sides of the coin." I know man is capable of very great evil, but I also recognize that man is capable of very great good and the changes we've brought/will bring to this planet fall into both categories.

[Thorham]

@ Thorham:



I do not think that word means what you think it means.

You got me there, thought you meant superior However, we're obviously only special to ourselves...

[nicholas]

@EDanaII

I believe that the very thing that sets us apart from all other creatures on this planet obligates us to become caretakers of this world.

That's the Islamic doctrine in a nutshell.

Asalaamu alaykum dear brother!

[Terminills]

@ Linde:




I do not think that word means what you think it means.

That would be your best Fezzik voice... >.<

[EDanaII]

No, no, no, no! My best Fezzik quote would be:



I just want you to feel you’re doing well. I hate for people to die embarrassed.






@ Nicholas:

Somehow, I don't think that's just a Islamic doctrine. I suspect it's embraced by many. At least, I sure hope it is.


@ Thorham:

You know... I just wouldn't be the least bit surprised if all living things fancied themselves special. Somehow, I think it's an integral part of being.

[nicholas]

@ Nicholas:

Somehow, I don't think that's just a Islamic doctrine. I suspect it's embraced by many. At least, I sure hope it is.

Oh of course, I just wanted to stress the point that's all.

It is written many times in the Qur'an and also narrated in the traditions of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh&hf) and his legitimate successors (The 12 Imams) that man was placed on Earth purely as it's vice-regent with the sole task of taking care of it.

[Thorham]

This world doesn't need a caretaker. For billions of years everything was fine. Then comes along the human, and all of a sudden a caretaker is needed. Seems a little strange to me. What this world needs is us not screwing everything up.

[bloodline]

Oh of course, I just wanted to stress the point that's all.

It is written many times in the Qur'an and also narrated in the traditions of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh&hf) and his legitimate successors (The 12 Imams) that man was placed on Earth purely as it's vice-regent with the sole task of taking care of it.

As strange as it may seem, at first glance I agree with the above statement... Then, when I actually think about this statement I realise that I don't agree with it.

I don't think we are here to be caretakers of the Earth, the earth runs just fine as a system in its own right... Far better we minimise the inevitable impact we will have upon it, but even then if we screw up our world... Something will survive, something will continue and eventually flourish. We aren't really that special, and I suppose we just don't realise that... Which leads us to squabbles over lines in the dirt and the need to satisfy our every whim.

We, as a species, behave like spoilt children... All thinking out little group is better than all the others.

Sorry for the philosophical rant, just typing out aloud really.

[Mrs Beanbag]

The expanding sun will wipe out all life on Earth in a billion years or so unless we invent planet-tugs or something.

[gertsy]

This planet already has enough tugs.
We squabble over collections of components wrapped up in circuits sending staccato pulses of electricity around.
What chance is there in amicability around land and political power.
And religion, please let's not even go there.

[EDanaII]

Yep. Here we go again... assuming that man can only be a negative force... nothing ever changes.

[Thorham]

Yep. Here we go again... assuming that man can only be a negative force... nothing ever changes.

Indeed, nothing ever changes, which is exactly why people think that. When have humans ever been a positive influence on this world? Or at least not a negative one?

Humans have great potential, but you wouldn't think that when you look at the world as a whole today.

[Linde]

I point out it's all a question of degree to which you respond with a question. You then go on to ignore the actual example of the degree between people and other animals by pretending it's a straw man.

I didn't say that you made a straw man. I'm saying that if the part I quoted was meant to be used as an argument, you made a straw man, because you certainly aren't arguing with anyone here.

Clearly, you are one who doesn't like his world view challenged and I'm wasting my time. I can think of better ways to spend it. Ciao!

"You clearly don't like like to have your world view challenged" *runs off from discussion*

You then return to your argument that, because some animals might abstract, man is no better than them. This is like saying that because baby can lift five pounds, Superman's no more special despite his ability to lift five million.

I am not saying that man is no better than animals on the grounds of their ability to abstract. I'm saying that man is no better than animals because being able to converse in abstract concepts isn't inherently more valuable than being able to live off insects. It's _you_ who try to decide which is better on the basis of obviously subjective values. If you are going to talk about which is "better" you're going to have to apply some sort of value system, and unless that value system is somehow objective, you are just explaining your opinion, not arguing with any sort of factual basis.

@ At all who are arguing that Special somehow equals Superior.

See above, you aren't exactly consistent with this yourself.

So, a parent who thinks his child is special is somehow arrogant?

Parents are arrogant when it comes to their children. Also, bears do **** in the woods. Not that the message you were replying to had anything to do with what parents think of their children, but it'd make another nice textbook example of a straw man.