Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

[spirantho]

What I don't understand is why people are bothering to even think about this deal.
I mean, even if we forget the animosity toward C=USA; even if we forget the huge gaping holes in the logic of the offer (like deciding on a project to go with when they've not even got permission for all interested parties); even forgetting all that there is one simple fact that we cannot ignore:

At low volume the price is guaranteed to be at least several hundred dollars: what are the chances of getting 500 people of such a small community to agree to a project, for it to be legally possible and permitted by all parties, and for them to pay up real cash in advance for a project, even just $100?

Then you add in the fact that it'll probably take 10 polls before people agree on something that's feasible in 6 months, and legally possible and permitted.

[ChuckT]

Why is a company like Commodore USA so needy for 500 people to invest in their little project. Surely if they were in the great position they claim to be in they wouldnt need that.

I found their PC's overpriced and I would be happy with a Dell or another computer anyday.  If being overpriced is what they pay to slap the Commodore logo onto every machine then Amiga users are going to be gouged by doing business with them and everyone should stop.

If they need our money then why wouldn't they they need to make to make a profit?  If they don't need our money then why do they want it up front?

When people don't want to answer questions or show us their financials then I have to question whether they are involved in organized crime.  Seriously, why wouldn't they want us to know they are honest?  Why wouldn't they want us to know they have nothing to hide?  Would you let me sell your house without a background check?

There are a lot of things I don't know about their plans with the Amiga community and it hasn't been spelled out and since there isn't an Amiga leader here, it makes the future even more murkier.

This is what I hear:  "I have a business plan for the Amiga community.  I'm not going to tell you what it costs.  I'm not going to tell you the specifics but you have an ultimatum to invest in 500 units at costs.  We're going to listen to the Amiga community which doesn't have a leader and not talk to those who are already in business and we're not going to explain to you where we're getting the technology from.  We're not going to tell you who were are or what our track record is.  We're not going to tell you our investment strategies, R&D strategies or any plan for the future.  We're not going to talk a lot for the record."

Excuse me but I wasn't born yesterday because I have been down this road with other con-artists.  Am I the only one who has been lied to and everyone else is gullible?

[spirantho]

Excuse me but I wasn't born yesterday because I have been down this road with other con-artists.  Am I the only one who has been lied to and everyone else is gullible?

Nope, and I very much doubt they'll be able to find 500 people who don't feel the same.

[dammy]

My complaint isn't that they are now interested in the community, this is actually a refreshing step forward give the past between the various aspects of the community as a whole. But rather why we need to put money into an escrow for a product that, once the community decides what they actually want, will not be seen for six months. A deposit I can understand to secure the unit. But the full money.

They have up to six months to ship the unit out, then after six months,  any and everyone is free to pull their money out of escrow.   Mean while, C=USA is using their own capital to fund the production, if not the actual design, and perhaps licenses for a final cost of zero profit.  There is the danger for C=USA to under estimate the final cost (like it a part has to go under an additional revisions) which means C=USA is going to be losing money.  For that reason alone, it's perfectly reasonable to have the full amount sitting in escrow for when C=USA ships.

What I don't understand is why are people so concerned about it when there hasn't been a product been chosen by 500 people to get a price on.  What if the product dead cost is sub $200USD, are people going to be so damning of keeping sub $200USD in escrow for several months?

[dammy]

What I don't understand is why people are bothering to even think about this deal.
I mean, even if we forget the animosity toward C=USA; even if we forget the huge gaping holes in the logic of the offer (like deciding on a project to go with when they've not even got permission for all interested parties); even forgetting all that there is one simple fact that we cannot ignore:

You are jumping ahead of things.  If the online Amiga Community can decided on a initial project, then C=USA has to do the research in the costs, which would include any needed license fees, that would go into a dead cost quote.  C=USA would then say what the quote is then it's up to the online Amiga Community to get the 500 order payments into a third party escrow account before C=USA will begin.  If C=USA can't get a license, then they announce the project is not possible because of the license issue.  Where is the gap of logic at there?

At low volume the price is guaranteed to be at least several hundred dollars: what are the chances of getting 500 people of such a small community to agree to a project, for it to be legally possible and permitted by all parties, and for them to pay up real cash in advance for a project, even just $100?

Then you add in the fact that it'll probably take 10 polls before people agree on something that's feasible in 6 months, and legally possible and permitted.

Why would a project cost $150K USD as a bare minimum?  It would depend on the project.  Remember, this is being done at dead cost, C=USA won't make a dime of profit off of it so it might be under $200USD @ unit, (total of $100KUSD) again, depending on what the project is.

[ChuckT]

What I don't understand is why are people so concerned about it when there hasn't been a product been chosen by 500 people to get a price on.  What if the product dead cost is sub $200USD, are people going to be so damning of keeping sub $200USD in escrow for several months?

It isn't going to be $200 USD.  Their C-64X Ultimate is $999 and their C-64 Extreme is $1495.  Their Vic line costs about $500 unless you want something bare bones.  Lets say out of argument that it costs $500 to $700.  That is a lot of money and it is being spent on nostalgia.

[ChuckT]

Why would a project cost $150K USD as a bare minimum?  It would depend on the project.  Remember, this is being done at dead cost, C=USA won't make a dime of profit off of it so it might be under $200USD @ unit, (total of $100KUSD) again, depending on what the project is.

A product has to be able to sell itself or it isn't worth anything.  Getting people together just adds security to them but won't make the unit sellable in the future unless it can already sell itself.

[dammy]

It isn't going to be $200 USD.  Their C-64X Ultimate is $999 and their C-64 Extreme is $1495.  Their Vic line costs about $500 unless you want something bare bones.  Lets say out of argument that it costs $500 to $700.  That is a lot of money and it is being spent on nostalgia.

Did it say somewhere it has to be a full blown computer?

[dammy]

A product has to be able to sell itself or it isn't worth anything.  Getting people together just adds security to them but won't make the unit sellable in the future unless it can already sell itself.

This is a peace offering to the online Amiga Community and not a new star product for C=USA to base 10K+ unit sales on.  Minimum of 500 is what they are asking for numbers of orders.  After the first batch (at dead cost), they may never sell another unit again if they sold a second batch publicly for profit if they ever decided to make a second run.  I don't see why this is difficult to grasp, what they are offering to do is just for the online Amiga Community at dead cost and not a new line that they are going to make profit on with high sales volume.

[Tripitaka]

The poll results on blogspot are already showing the direction that this mythical machine would need to go in. That being, a powerful  PPC CPU with OS4, running legacy and next gen apps, in a wedgy case (with a mini tower option too maybe). That's the situation. So all CUSA needs to do is to let Hyperion use the names "Commodore" and "Amiga" and let them get on with it.

What part of that requires 500 people paying $500+ up front ?

[ChuckT]

Did it say somewhere it has to be a full blown computer?

If it is missing stuff like memory, storage and so forth, it won't work for the average user.

I went through all of that with the Amax where I had to buy Apple Roms, an Apple 400K drive and an Amax and then I was scared that I wouldn't be able to buy the roms, etc.  It was a hassle.

[spirantho]

You are jumping ahead of things.  If the online Amiga Community can decided on a initial project, then C=USA has to do the research in the costs, which would include any needed license fees, that would go into a dead cost quote.  C=USA would then say what the quote is then it's up to the online Amiga Community to get the 500 order payments into a third party escrow account before C=USA will begin.  If C=USA can't get a license, then they announce the project is not possible because of the license issue.  Where is the gap of logic at there?

The gap of logic is that even if a project is agreed upon to a level that 500 people would take part, the chances of ALL of them still wanting to do so after the price is decided, and that the project is deemed possible, and that the project is accepted by all interested license and rights holders is close to nil. Then you have to go through the whole polling process again, except this time the chances of everyone agreeing are even smaller as their first choice has been dismissed. By the time you end up with a project that's permissable, you're talking about a mouse or something.

Why would a project cost $150K USD as a bare minimum?  It would depend on the project.  Remember, this is being done at dead cost, C=USA won't make a dime of profit off of it so it might be under $200USD @ unit, (total of $100KUSD) again, depending on what the project is.

Show me a project with only 500 units that costs less than $150, and will interest Amiga users sufficiently to cough up....

The whole thing is back to front. You can't as a company ask the public what they want, because people will never agree; this is exacerbated by the fact that most people aren't technical and don't know what's feasible and what's not, so you'll end up with as many crazy suggestions as sensible ones.

Please give me any example at all of a successful company asking the public what they want and then going with it.

The "visionaries" of this world didn't ask the public what they wanted, they showed them the project and made them want it.

[ChuckT]

This is a peace offering to the online Amiga Community and not a new star product for C=USA to base 10K+ unit sales on.  Minimum of 500 is what they are asking for numbers of orders.  After the first batch (at dead cost), they may never sell another unit again if they sold a second batch publicly for profit if they ever decided to make a second run.  I don't see why this is difficult to grasp, what they are offering to do is just for the online Amiga Community at dead cost and not a new line that they are going to make profit on with high sales volume.

Their prices are already high for normal PC computers using the Commodore name.  If "at cost" is the "peace offering" then regular prices are for the upgrade which I can hardly afford.  The real question is why aren't the every day prices more reasonable like other PC companies?  And I thought you said they were nice all the time which means the "peace offering" doesn't matter because I'll get that fair price all the time.  Right?

[spirantho]

The poll results on blogspot are already showing the direction that this mythical machine would need to go in. That being, a powerful  PPC CPU with OS4, running legacy and next gen apps, in a wedgy case (with a mini tower option too maybe). That's the situation. So all CUSA needs to do is to let Hyperion use the names "Commodore" and "Amiga" and let them get on with it.

What part of that requires 500 people paying $500+ up front ?

As long as C=USA stick to what they have experience of, i.e. building cases then that's right. But C=USA have a whelk's chance in a supernova of actually building a new machine in 6 months from start to finish.  A veteran company with a staff of hundreds would struggle to do that.

That's the only way I can see this offer working at all; the Amiga community need to keep their feet on the ground. C=USA have proven they can build cases. Yes there were some mistakes (overheating for example), but they've learned from that. If the Amiga community agree to ask C=USA for a wedge-shaped case for an existing machine (e.g. Sam Flex/460), they might get it, but it'll be a push in 6 months. The problem is that traditionally the Amiga people get carried away and start asking for crazy things like an OS4 machine with the Hombre chipset or something totally impossible in 6 years, let alone 6 months.

This would work very well for C=USA, in fact, because the Sam boards are standard form factor, so they'd fit a PC. So Sam users get the wedge case and are happy, and the C=USA crowd get a wedge case  with "Amiga" written on, running Linux, and they're happy.

I have to say though I still think it's completely academic.... there's no way I can see 500 people plonking down any money into such a venture, escrow or not, even more so in the economic climate we're in.

[eliyahu]

As long as C=USA stick to what they have experience of, i.e. building cases then that's right. But C=USA have a whelk's chance in a supernova of actually building a new machine in 6 months from start to finish.  A veteran company with a staff of hundreds would struggle to do that.

what's a whelk got to do with a supernova? :lol:

-- eliyahu

[spirantho]

what's a whelk got to do with a supernova? :lol:

It doesn't stand a chance in one....