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Author Topic: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!  (Read 8269 times)

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Offline Acill

Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2003, 06:20:39 PM »
Thanks for the info. I found them on my A3000. They look like they are in good shape still. I have perfect sound, and its mixed through my sound card too. If I ever loos the Paula sound I know what to do and look for.
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Offline Ilwrath

Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2003, 06:36:22 PM »
Hmm....  I have a dead 3640 card.  (From my backup A4000)  I never bothered to try to track down the cause of death.  Maybe it's an easy one.  I'll check it out.  Thanks for the info!

It's also good to know what causes A4000s to lose sound.  It's not a problem mine has, but I know they are prone to it.  (I always just assumed it was caused by people mixing sound output by splicing wires together.  ;-)  )
 

Offline patrikTopic starter

Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2003, 09:05:09 PM »
x56h34:

I guess it turns out different in different A4000's. In some cases there evidently have been leakage from those two capacitors as there are goo-gaa around them on the motherboard, but them drying out sounds very sensible in many cases, they are after all electrolyte capacitors.


/Patrik
 

Offline x56h34

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Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2003, 09:10:39 PM »
@patrik:

I guess the right time to replace them would be as soon as you notice something funny going on with your Paula sound, just to make sure.
 

Offline patrikTopic starter

Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2003, 09:38:57 PM »
@x56h34:

Absolutely! :)


/Patrik
 

Offline tonyw

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Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2003, 11:50:23 PM »
All electronic components have a limited life. An aluminium electrolytic cap that lasts for ten years is doing very well.

The claim that the capacitor should be non-polarised is nonsense. In that circuit, a polarised capacitor (which can go in either way if there's no voltage across it) or non-polarised will function equally well. If some have failed, it's just old age, not because they should have been non-polarised types.

In all other respects, they are good articles. In particular, the reverse-biased electros on the 3640 are a real worry. Although they are unlikely to burst after all this time, if they dry out through overheating and go open circuit, they aren't going to do their job.

Probably the excessive heat inside the case of an A4000D is the worst cause of component failures.

tony
 

Offline Dalamar

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Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2003, 01:55:15 AM »
Creepy.  As  I was reading this topic my A4000 died.    That is REALLY creepy.  I looked at my CPU board and it looks to have this problem.  I've tried to replace the caps and the problem is still there and that may owe to my high skillset for surface mount repairs.  I think it's time to just get an accelerator card for the machine.  Any recommendations on a decent one that wont break the bank?
-Dal
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Offline Madgun68

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Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2003, 02:00:10 AM »
I had to replace the caps in my A4000. The sound, however, wasn't slowly degrading . I just turned it on one day and nothing out of the right channel.

I went with what I could find though, which were polarised caps (non-smt.) Haven't had a problem since.
......
 

Offline Munchkin

Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2003, 02:33:35 AM »
Hmm...

The thought of opening my A4k up and removing everything isn't that swell.. but I guess it might be a good idea.

See if I find time to do that someday.
 

Offline Castellen

Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2003, 09:01:05 AM »
Had a look at that article, and it is incorrect about using a non-polarised capacitor.

It's perfectly normal to use the polarised capacitor Commodore fitted.  In fact you could use either, but since the non polarised ones are usually bigger, more expensive and there were exsisting polarised capacitors in the design, it made sense to do what C= did.
The negative side of the capacitor is biased to ground, so providing the bias on the op-amp's input doesn't get messed up, the circuit is fine.

The facts are that it would appear to be a very large bad batch of electrolytics, or more likely just a bad quality capacitor.  Apparently various manufacturers have had electrolytic chemical problems over the years.
I've repaired a lot of A4000T, A4000D, CD32 and A1200 with this problem.  In almost all cases it's only the 22µF capacitors, and not just the ones in the audio output section.
From memory there are around 5 of these 22µF capacitors in the A4000D, which I have all seen with leaking problems.
Some of the other SMD electrolytics can have the fault too, but from experience, the 22µF ones are definately the worst.

The problem should not occur on the A3000 as these are all through hole components.  Only the surface mount capacitors in the A4000D/T, A1200, A600 and CD32 would appear to suffer from this leaking problem.  Leaded capacitors usually just tend to "dry out" rather than leak.


The biggest cause for concern in almost all Amiga models is the RTC battery failing.
These batteries are generally rated for a life of around 6 years, but some of the ones out there now will be double that age.
There's a very high chance of the battery leaking corrosive material onto the motherboard which can cause a number of faults.

I'm actually in the process of writing a guide on this, my work so far is online at:

http://amiga.serveftp.net

under the battery replacement section if anyone wants a look.

Lots more technical info to be added as I get time to write it :-P

Anthony.
 

Offline Castellen

Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2003, 09:25:21 AM »
OK, just read the other section of that website regarding the A3640 repair.
Most of the information is pretty good, other than the removal procedure of the capacitors.
I would definately NOT suggest "twisting" them off the PCB!!  That's a very good way to rip off solder pads.

The correct way is to use a hot air SMD toldering tool, but at home, two small soldering irons can be used, one in each hand.
Another way is to heat one side, lift it slightly, heat the other, lift that slightly, continuing until it's removed.  Not really ideal either as it's just as eay to lift pads doing it that way.


As for the advice of never "poking around in the computer" while powered up...
Geez, I'd never get anything repaired!
There's possibly a slim chance of killing yourself with 5V if you had an unusually low body resistance and you layed in a bathtub full of water, then tightly grabbed a large contact area with the 5V supply on it.  As far as I know, the lowest voltage causing death was about 32V or something.
Ohm's law = current = V/resistance.  Takes at least 20mA though your chest in the right place to cause problems, meaning you need a body resistance as low as 250 ohms!!
Normally it's 100k ohms or so.

Of course power supplies are a different story.  The voltages inside them have a very high chance of doing you damage!

That's today's lesson in electrical safety :-)  
 

Offline Framiga

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Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2003, 10:24:20 AM »
Hi Castellen,

you wrote:

"As for the advice of never "poking around in the computer" while powered up...
Geez, I'd never get anything repaired!"

i 100% agree :-) but remember to remove your metallic bracelet before . . . .erm!!!! beleive me :-( (a VCR is gone here, some years ago)

Remeber also, that the 90% of the premature dead of many  "consumer level"  boards, is due the bad quality of the elctrolitic capacitors.

Ciao

 

Offline Castellen

Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2003, 10:41:16 AM »
Good point, and especially around car batteries.
Only 12V, but several hundred amps through your metal watch strap and your wrist is going to get extremely hot extremely quickly!

The biggest failure I usually see in day to day repairs is the failure of high power devices (transistors, etc) and sometimes dry joints on the legs of through hole components subject to a lot of thermal stress.
Leaking/dry electrolytics is still a big problem, mainly with older equipment.  Also it's common to get "resistive" tantalum and ceramic capacitors from time to time.  These typically cause bias upsets in audio circuits.
 

Offline darkcoder

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Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2003, 02:16:45 PM »
Hi

 I have a 4000T that is starting to produce noise from the audio output. Is this the problem described in the article? Does information for 4000D also apply to 4000T?

@framiga: do you think that Casonato would be able to repair this problem? How can I contact him?
The Dark Coder / Trinity
 

Offline Castellen

Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2003, 06:27:56 PM »
The A4000T is electrically similar, but the output amplifier and those 22µF coupling capacitors in question are fitted to the audio/video module which unplugs from the motherboard.

I have repaired these before due to leaking capacitors causing audio problems, so you may well have the same problem.  There are some 22µF capacitors on the motherboard as well, so would be worth replacing those at the same time.

A4000T schematics (and of the module) are here:

http://amiga.serveftp.net

Look in the schematics section.
 

Offline Framiga

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Re: If you own an Amiga, especially an A4000, read this!
« Reply #29 from previous page: December 17, 2003, 08:31:03 PM »
Hi darkcoder

yes sure! he is the only one, in Italy that can do all that you want (if the spare part is available).

Contact him by phone before and despach him the mobo only.

He can do a full check of the Amiga mobo, with its own hardw/softw diagnostic gear.

Ciao