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Offline GadgetMaster

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #314 on: June 04, 2009, 09:29:07 PM »
Just saw the tags and I think they sum up this thread better than anyone else has managed to do:  :hammer:

amiga ,  catchup ,  complete bollocks ,  denial ,  fantasy ,  flamefest ,  ibm pc ,  loljoystick ,  playing ,  troll ,  uninformed :roflmao:
 

Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #315 on: June 04, 2009, 09:48:56 PM »
Quote from: Karlos;509210
Under which specific cases is it required?


If you want to be a purist, it can make a difference at any time.  If you sample at 60Hz, you could just miss that case of state change which could make a difference in the game.  As I stated, the recording I did was from a River-Raid game.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #316 on: June 04, 2009, 09:52:50 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;509232
If you want to be a purist, it can make a difference at any time.  If you sample at 60Hz, you could just miss that case of state change which could make a difference in the game.  As I stated, the recording I did was from a River-Raid game.


That hasn't quite answered the question. Does River Raid sample at 1kHz?
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #317 on: June 04, 2009, 09:58:57 PM »
Quote from: Linde;509214
Sigh. Please repeat it for me then. What exactly IS your point? Is it that not knowing what you're doing may result in bad code and less-than-optimal file sizes and execution times? Because yes, I very much agree with that, but I still don't see how it's relevant. You can produce horrible code on any system.

...

You don't see the relevance that when applications install under Windows they fill up hundreds of DLLs and other bloated files.  

>Then some form of lesser compression with bigger files and shorter extraction time would be faster.

My point still stands.  Amiga sped up the animation by shorter files and short data files.

>No, if you write an app that uses standard OCS hardware (let's say an old A500) or even uses the kernel functions that's in no way a guarantee in itself that it will work on other Amiga systems.

Bullcrap.  AGA is backward compatible with OCS/ECS as per spec.

>No, but Adlib sound was definitely supported in the majority of sound cards, and telling the program what port to use can be as simple as passing a parameter when launching it or reading an environment variable. Perhaps not common, but as I said, definitely possible.

You forgot this is a boot block; no parameters to pass.  And how would you know the port even if you could pass the parameters.

>How come normal Amiga and C64 games feel so responsive when they read the joystick only once or twice per frame anyway?

How come MP3 sounds like uncompressed linear 16-bit audio?  Sometimes you can't tell the difference.  You can't go by feeling; you have to look at it logically that it CAN make a difference.

>Hahaha, let's see... Audio apps that make full and non-redundant use of 44.1 kHz audio... Well, to be honest I'd rather do multi-track destructive sound editing and recording at a higher frequency (and as high bit depth as possible) to get some frequency head room. If you've ever done any audio editing you know what I mean. A higher sampling frequency can also be used to account for a low bit depth (and yeah, in terms of recording and mixing, 16 bits often aren't quite enough). Some KORG recorders for example sample 1-bit sound at a 20-something MHz rate. The sound can then be filtered digitally for very high fidelity audio.

That's a good point.  I am not arguing against that-- higher sampling rates make up for lower bit depths.

>But yeah, you still didn't show me a game that utilizes 1 KHz joystick polling.

I told you any game like River-raid that has fast action and shooting can benefit from it.  You may get away with less rates, but that's just like audio-- you can get away with 22Khz in most cases.

>I never said it was faster, just superior in every other regard, and definitely SUFFICIENTLY fast.

What other regard?  Digital joysticks are better than analog even at slower speeds of sampling.  There's no ambiguity regarding the direction.

>Amiga has some catching up to do with Burger King, because they are serving good hamburgers that people are eating right now.

Take you bullcrap elsewhere if you can't refute the points.

>If you are writing kernel drivers you should know what a devastating effect unrestricted access to hardware registers could have in a complex system like Windows XP. I certainly don't want my Windows install to bluescreen as often and unexpectedly as my Amiga comes to a Guru meditation.

People can access hardware even in protected mode.  I have done it myself in my application.  

>Windows XP isn't an optimal system for real-time applications, no, but what on earth made you believe that they were trying to be?

So they are playing catch-up.  PCs aren't real-time systems like Amiga is in terms of accuracy.

>Well, there are none. Reading ADCs and multiple buttons and passing it serially to the application in a system-friendly way might never be as fast as reading five mechanical switches. Boo-hoo.

Lame way to shove the point under the rug.

>LOL, you can make up would-be scenarios too, I see, but in real life kids are very fast to learn (often much faster than we are). Well, I guess not liking more than two buttons is a matter of taste, really, but most gamers and kids seem to agree with me.

It's real experiment.

>If it SEEMS instantaneous (being a HUMAN INTERFACE DEVICE), what the is the point of pushing it further?

Because MP3 also seems instantaneous.  I see your lame reasons.  To you fake diamonds are just as good as real ones as long as they seem real.

>I'm sorry then, but that's the PC philosophy. External processors, controllers and hardware devices are used for everything...

I'm sorry than that it has to play catch-up to Amiga.
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Offline Trev

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #318 on: June 04, 2009, 10:11:18 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;509236
How come MP3 sounds like uncompressed linear 16-bit audio?  Sometimes you can't tell the difference.  You can't go by feeling; you have to look at it logically that it CAN make a difference.
Quote


MP3 sounds like crap, but not everyone can hear the distortion, and in fact, younger folks prefer MP3 to state of the art lossless codecs. Odd.

Quote
So they are playing catch-up.  PCs aren't real-time systems like Amiga is in terms of accuracy.


We really need to stop mixing terms. If Windows XP guaranteed that all operations completed within one year, it would be a real-time system, albeit a "slow" one. Neither Windows nor Amiga OS are real-time operating systems; however, both Amiga systems and modern PCs are capable of running real-time operating systems. Yes?
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #319 on: June 04, 2009, 10:14:32 PM »
Quote

You don't see the relevance that when applications install under Windows they fill up hundreds of DLLs and other bloated files.

Do you see the relevance that you need to install dozens of custom classes with MUI, some applications refusing to work because you don't have version xx, etc...

Amiga needs to improve here.

Quote

Bullcrap. AGA is backward compatible with OCS/ECS as per spec.

Still, there is no garanty it will work. Why do you think you needed to degrade your Amiga 1200 to play some older games ? Why do you think a lot of demos/games made for ECS are crashing or have garbage instead of sprites unless you patch them with WHDLoad ?

Seems like it's not 100% compatible... What's bulcrap is you saying the contrary when the proof is there with the hundred (thousands ?) of OCS software that needs to be patch to work with AGA.

Quote

How come MP3 sounds like uncompressed linear 16-bit audio? Sometimes you can't tell the difference. You can't go by feeling; you have to look at it logically that it CAN make a difference.

Amiga can't play 16bit sound anyway. Unless you add a soundcard, and use AHI which is far far far less prcecise than anything you could expect... Still it sounds a lot better than 14bit Paula audio, be it mp3 or linear uncompressed audio...

Quote

I told you any game like River-raid that has fast action and shooting can benefit from it. You may get away with less rates, but that's just like audio-- you can get away with 22Khz in most cases.

You're arguing that you need to be able to poll joystick 1000 times a second, but you can live with 22khz... Come on ! :)

Quote

So they are playing catch-up. PCs aren't real-time systems like Amiga is in terms of accuracy.

The point is that neither is a real-time OS. Amiga can be as responsive as you want, just use some apps that uses some CPU, and everything crawls...

Quote

I'm sorry than that it has to play catch-up to Amiga.

What for ? And what is there to catch up ?

What I see is the Amiga is trying to catch up... thousand colours 5 years after it's mainstream everywhere... 3D after everyone... Games ported 3-4 years after they are released... CPU raw power behind...

Who's trying to catch who ?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 10:17:32 PM by warpdesign »
 

Offline meega

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #320 on: June 04, 2009, 10:24:24 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;509236
How come MP3 sounds like uncompressed linear 16-bit audio?


It doesn't.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #321 on: June 04, 2009, 11:00:18 PM »
Quote from: Trev;509237
Quote from: amigaksi;509236
How come MP3 sounds like uncompressed linear 16-bit audio?  Sometimes you can't tell the difference.  You can't go by feeling; you have to look at it logically that it CAN make a difference.
Quote


MP3 sounds like crap, but not everyone can hear the distortion, and in fact, younger folks prefer MP3 to state of the art lossless codecs. Odd.



We really need to stop mixing terms. If Windows XP guaranteed that all operations completed within one year, it would be a real-time system, albeit a "slow" one. Neither Windows nor Amiga OS are real-time operating systems; however, both Amiga systems and modern PCs are capable of running real-time operating systems. Yes?


Re-read the post.  They are not real-time systems like the Amiga.  Any system can be declared to be real-time.  But PC is not as good as Amiga so don't equate them in regards to real-time operations.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #322 on: June 04, 2009, 11:04:28 PM »
Quote from: warpdesign;509238
Do you see the relevance that you need to install dozens of custom classes with MUI, some applications refusing to work because you don't have version xx, etc...

Amiga needs to improve here.
...

No comparison between XP and AmigaDOS here.

>Still, there is no garanty it will work. Why do you think you needed to degrade your Amiga 1200 to play some older games ? Why do you think a lot of demos/games made for ECS are crashing or have garbage instead of sprites unless you patch them with WHDLoad ?

Because you don't understand OCS/ECS/AGA.

>Seems like it's not 100% compatible... What's bulcrap is you saying the contrary when the proof is there with the hundred (thousands ?) of OCS software that needs to be patch to work with AGA.

Go find the actual reasons and then reply; stop blurting out whatever comes on the top of your head.

>Amiga can't play 16bit sound anyway. Unless you add a soundcard, and use AHI which is far far far less prcecise than anything you could expect... Still it sounds a lot better than 14bit Paula audio, be it mp3 or linear uncompressed audio...

That's not the argument.

>You're arguing that you need to be able to poll joystick 1000 times a second, but you can live with 22khz... Come on ! :)

That's not the argument.  Do you read English?

>The point is that neither is a real-time OS. Amiga can be as responsive as you want, just use some apps that uses some CPU, and everything crawls...

Bullcrap.  Another PC fan just contradicted you in a previous post; only one can be right.

>What for ? And what is there to catch up ?

Post #275.  Sorry, I'm pointing this to you; they way you replied to this post, I hope you think before you reply.

>What I see is the Amiga is trying to catch up... thousand colours 5 years after it's mainstream everywhere... 3D after everyone... Games ported 3-4 years after they are released... CPU raw power behind...

You didn't even read the arguments.
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Offline Linde

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #323 on: June 04, 2009, 11:24:52 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;509236
You don't see the relevance that when applications install under Windows they fill up hundreds of DLLs and other bloated files.  

Oh, and every other Amiga program will do the same with libraries... Except that mostly I have to put them there manually. and they are oh-so-bloated! If anything, dynamically linked libraries retract from the "bloatedness".

Quote from: amigaksi;509236

My point still stands.  Amiga sped up the animation by shorter files and short data files.

Shorter maybe, but in that case, not by compression but by information reduction.


Quote from: amigaksi;509236

Bullcrap.  AGA is backward compatible with OCS/ECS as per spec.

Oh, I am not speaking from any particular technical know-how, but as I said, using old ECS and OCS demos/games on an A1200 without WHDLoad or soft kicking will be a pain. Probably not so much the incompatibilities in the custom chips as because of incompatibilities in the different ROM revisions, RAM size and changes in clock speed.

Quote from: amigaksi;509236

You forgot this is a boot block; no parameters to pass.  And how would you know the port even if you could pass the parameters.

No, not boot block. If someone made a boot block demo for a particular PC model, they could make it work on every other machine of the same model, though, just as well as Amiga boot intros work for every computer of the same model.

I am surprised we are talking about boot block demos now though, since PC = Windows, apparently.

Quote from: amigaksi;509236

How come MP3 sounds like uncompressed linear 16-bit audio? Sometimes you can't tell the difference.  You can't go by feeling; you have to look at it logically that it CAN make a difference.

It can indeed make a difference, but the question is whether this difference is important enough for our perception to take into account.


Quote from: amigaksi;509236

I told you any game like River-raid that has fast action and shooting can benefit from it.  You may get away with less rates, but that's just like audio-- you can get away with 22Khz in most cases.

Implementing that frequent polling in River Raid was probably beyond scope of the programmers or the machines it was made for. In the end, it means implementing sub-pixel movement and collision detection for every joystick "read cycle", and either way you will only see the changes when the screen redraws.

Also, you won't get away with 22 kHz if you want to be able to faithfully reproduce audible sound without loss of loads of audible information - that's only half the human hearing range, and a clearly perceptible difference, as opposed to the difference between reading the joystick 4 or 17 times per redraw.

And no, you still haven't shown me a game that benefits and uses 1 kHz joystick sampling, so the use case is still VERY artificial.

Quote from: amigaksi;509236

What other regard?  Digital joysticks are better than analog even at slower speeds of sampling.  There's no ambiguity regarding the direction.

You sort of missed the point of analog joysticks then. They are not there to send unambiguous up/down/left/right information. They give you full and precise control over the axes, for example to control a crosshair or fine movement controls of a player. Did I mention that my joypads have a digital directional pad too, by the way?

Quote from: amigaksi;509236

Take you bullcrap elsewhere if you can't refute the points.

I'm just reducing your argument to the absurd to show how little sense it makes. Amiga OS might provide a 1 kHz joystick orgy that the PC doesn't need (and no, not the Amiga either) and Burger King is providing hamburgers, which certainly isn't a feature the Amiga needs (though I would appreciate it dispensing hamburgers). Your argument makes the faulty assumption that when something doesn't have a particular vaguely attractive feature that something else does have, it needs or tries to "catch up".

Quote from: amigaksi;509236

People can access hardware even in protected mode.  I have done it myself in my application.

Congratulations. What are you complaining about then? Is it particularly hard?

Quote from: amigaksi;509236

So they are playing catch-up.  PCs aren't real-time systems like Amiga is in terms of accuracy.

As I said, Windows isn't exactly aspiring to be real-time either, and I don't think Amiga OS was either. If the Amiga is more predictable in timing it's more likely a result of the simple system design than a thought-out feature.

Quote from: amigaksi;509236

Lame way to shove the point under the rug.

How so? It is true, isn't it?

Quote from: amigaksi;509236

It's real experiment.

And ten minutes later the kid gave up and never touched the controller again? Doesn't sound real at all. How old was the kid?

Quote from: amigaksi;509236

Because MP3 also seems instantaneous.  I see your lame reasons.  To you fake diamonds are just as good as real ones as long as they seem real.

MP3 is instantaneous? What are you talking about?

Quote from: amigaksi;509236
I'm sorry than that it has to play catch-up to Amiga.

I'm starting to think that I am feeding some popular fairy-tale creature by even bothering to argue with you.
 

Offline Trev

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #324 on: June 04, 2009, 11:38:12 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;509250
Re-read the post.  They are not real-time systems like the Amiga.  Any system can be declared to be real-time.  But PC is not as good as Amiga so don't equate them in regards to real-time operations.


Listen, one could write a simple real-time operating system that is source compatible (with a small HAL, of course) with both Amiga and IBM PC-compatible hardware. Both systems would perform identically within the domain of the real-time operating system because that's what the real-time operating system guarantees.

No one disagrees that the joystick ports on the Amiga provide lower latency access to traditional digital joysticks; however, that doesn't make the Amiga "better."

No human being can trigger a joystick at an input frequency of 1 kHz. (Something other than a human being might, but we're talking about human beings.) The problem then is one of message passing and message processing. Any software system that guarantees that 100% of the messages sent from the joystick to the host system will be received and processed within a certain period of time is making a real-time guarantee. This you know. However, it doesn't necessarily need to sample the joystick at a frequency of 1 kHz unless that's the only way to guarantee that no messages are missed. Under most circumstances, a real-time system running on IBM PC-compatible hardware can make the same guarantees as a similar system running on an Amiga. I'm not talking about 500ns response windows. I'm talking about simple message processing.

Of course, none of this explains why Photoshop CS4 64-bit has such a hard time moving the cursor when GPU acceleration is enabled. WTF? ;-) Something silly on my end, I'm sure.

EDIT: Just to be clear: "real-time" does not mean instantaneous.
 

Offline smerf

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #325 on: June 04, 2009, 11:47:27 PM »
Hi,

@DonnyEMU,

Thank god for the PC enhancing my computer experience with Windows VISTA, 10 reactivations due to hardware upgrades, 3 hard crashes, not loading games, at least 3 crashes a night while playing Fallout 3, and 4 freezes where I had to stop everything from running with Task Manager, Windows VISTA has been a real ehancing computer experience, and just think all this cost me $159.oo. Somewhat good for modern day games.

Ubuntu Linux, put on my machine in 2005, no crashes, free programs, free office suite, plays about 65% windows games with WINE or CEDEGA, provides penguin games, run e-uae, and the cost $0.00 (excuse me 5 bucks a month for cedega). Good for data, games, databases, word processing, spreadsheets, and home financial programs.

Amiga 4000, no crashes, no reloads, don't have to call Commodore for reactivation, have OS3.1 on 5 of there computers, plays old but challenging games, plays music, has great demos, no internet, no virus's or loss of data for the past 10 years, no support, but a fun computer to play around with.

smerf
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Offline smerf

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #326 on: June 05, 2009, 12:02:10 AM »
Hi,

@everyone,

How many PC techs, or IT techs work for microsoft?
How many PC techs, or IT techs work for Linux?
How many PC techs, or IT techs work for Amiga?

Amiga has the least techs working for them, this means they have the most stable system that just works.

Amiga wins

PC and Linux users lose because they need professional help to keep their systems going.

Sounds Logical to me

smerf
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

MorphOS is a MAC done a little better
 

Offline GadgetMaster

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #327 on: June 05, 2009, 12:06:14 AM »
Quote from: smerf;509263
Hi,

@everyone,

How many PC techs, or IT techs work for microsoft?
How many PC techs, or IT techs work for Linux?
How many PC techs, or IT techs work for Amiga?

Amiga has the least techs working for them, this means they have the most stable system that just works.

Amiga wins

PC and Linux users lose because they need professional help to keep their systems going.

Sounds Logical to me

smerf

Aren't you forgetting the ones that use PCs and Amigas? :lol:
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #328 on: June 05, 2009, 12:07:24 AM »
Quote from: smerf;509263
Hi,

@everyone,

How many PC techs, or IT techs work for microsoft?
How many PC techs, or IT techs work for Linux?
How many PC techs, or IT techs work for Amiga?

Amiga has the least techs working for them, this means they have the most stable system that just works.

Amiga wins

smerf


Sinclair Reasearch Limited doesn't have any at all. Spectrum wins!
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Offline bloodline

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #329 from previous page: June 05, 2009, 12:29:54 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;509236
>No, if you write an app that uses standard OCS hardware (let's say an old A500) or even uses the kernel functions that's in no way a guarantee in itself that it will work on other Amiga systems.

Bullcrap.  AGA is backward compatible with OCS/ECS as per spec.

You have never programmed an Amiga then... AGA was not that compatible with OCS/ECS... the chipset even contained a compatibility mode that could be switched on during the early boot sequence to degrade the chipset features to the older spec.


I have tried to follow your weird Joystick argument... I can't think of a single game that I or anyone else has ever written on the Amiga that checked the Joystick status more than once a frame... if it did then any related animation would be jumpy, since there would missing frames...

You can read any register on any system as fast as the busses will allow... but if you can read the port faster than you need to, and you do read it faster than you need to, you are just wasting bandwidth.... with the Amiga there is precious little bandwidth, wasting it all trying to read the joystick one thousand times a second would just steal the bus time away from the audio and gfx circuits that do need to read memory and registers that quickly.
If you want to sample something at a stupidly high rate there are plenty of available options on the PC... I use an FA-101 Firewire box to sample 10 channels of 32bits at 192Khz... that can be processed in realtime... that sort of pisses on your weird little 1khz joystick port...
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 12:47:50 AM by bloodline »