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Offline koaftder

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #299 on: June 04, 2009, 06:00:12 PM »
You can ask the windows kernel for the value of the game port and it'll return you that value before a stock amiga can stuff a number in one of it's cpu registers.
 

Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #300 on: June 04, 2009, 06:05:14 PM »
Quote from: Linde;509179
So what IS the point? If you can't code or if you can't use a compiler you might make bloated programs? Surprise, surprise.

..

It happens by default with famous PC compilers.   Looks like you replied to this message without reading the entire posting since what you argued against initially was answered later.

>No, size doesn't necessarily have direct correlation with speed unless you count the loading time from the disk or stream the content.

The anim files decompress on the fly-- no streaming or disk reads.

>I never said your bootblock stuff doesn't, but you'll have a pretty frustrating experience watching OCS and ECS demos or games without soft kicking or using WHDLoad.

But Amiga has the edge since if you use OCS standard hardware, it works across the board on all Amigas and you don't have to use APIs.

>That is after the OS loads. Yes, interfacing with "any" soundcard on a PC relies on standard APIs. That's definitely a difference from the "standard" Amiga, but in most regards it's not a short-coming, which is why abstraction layers like RTG and AHI exist.

I'm glad you agree on something.

>Probably not often in DOS demos, but it's definitely possible to support adlib compatible cards in 1k.

Adlib is not supported by all audio cards and even those it's supported on don't use the same I/O port.

>Yes, and a change in sound can happen over an infinitesimal amount of time. It doesn't mean that it's particularily important for our hearing.

In sound, 44Khz..48Khz is enough but in the case of joysticks, IT CAN make a difference.  It all depends on how fast the software is sampling the joystick and WHEN it samples.  Anyway, your point that humans can't react that fast is false since you can produce millisecond accurate state changes in the joystick that are not NOISE.

>How often do you think the game itself is checking the state? Show me a game that utilizes the superior Amiga joystick port to its full potential!

I can say the same for Audio.  

>PS2 as in Playstation 2, not PS/2. I have an adapter to connect two PS2 compatible controllers to one USB port.

So, how does that make it faster than Amigas I/O port access like MOVE.W $DFF00A,D0.

>No. There is nothing to catch up to. Having a joystick port on a computer is totally redundant when you have universal serial interfaces.

It has catching up to do until you prove that you have faster joystick interface that people are using out there right now.

>No. Unless you've been living under a rock for the past 15 years you know that software developers are trying to move further AWAY from the hardware. Transparency, modularity, uniformity, and in the end, system stability, at the expense of exact control...

Believe it or not, people still access hardware I/O ports on PCs in kernel drivers.  I write some of these so I know.  

>PC:s may very well be (and are) used in low latency/real-time applications.

But PC has catching up to do in regards to Amiga's real-time set-up.

>Given the average life length of a typical PC game pad I'm pretty sure that there are more USB sticks in use. "There are millions of game ports"... How many USB ports do you think there are?

Not ports, USB joysticks that are faster than Amiga's joystick interface.

>The joypads I use have two separate analog joysticks, a directional pad and ten buttons ergonomically laid out.

Analog sticks suck and 10+ button joysticks suck as well.  I rather have a one or two button joystick rather than complicate things for kids playing games with 10+ joysticks.  "Sorry you pressed Select instead of A".  "Sorry you pressed Start although it's labeled as Select."  "Sorry you pressed the right white button instead of left black one."  Now take this into context of a fast shoot-em up game.

>They work as respond as instantly as necessary for fast shooters as well as old platform games, even if my computer might not be able to sample them at 1000Hz (which I don't know since there are no games that do).

They can all seem instantaneous, but there's factually some time they take.

>There really isn't anything like it for Amiga.

Complete bullcrap.

>On some OS:s I'm sure it's possible. If you need to have timing that tight (i e for timing some sort of serial communication) in any of the mainstream general purpose OS:s you can often outsource the time critical stuff to a $1 PIC.

That's your worst argument so far.  Use a piece of hardware.  As I stated before, if I use hardware, anything can be done on any computer.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #301 on: June 04, 2009, 06:06:25 PM »
Quote from: Linde;509194
Yeah, using Windows for totally elementary stuff like reading the joystick state at 1 kHz without jitter is something we have to look far into the future for. And for me, as a professional switch flipper having computer rebooting as my primary field of interest, light-switch booting speed is a very important factor.


Read post #275.
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Offline Linde

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #302 on: June 04, 2009, 06:13:47 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;509190
I didn't mutate my stand.  I stated my criterion many times.  This was already refuted when I stated "barring Atari 2600 cartridge type boots".  BASIC is a ROM like cartridges.  It's true, if he only wants to use BASIC, he's fine-- for him it does boot faster.  But in the general case, I know the C64 are loading huge files of the disk drive and there's no boot option for that.

It still boots faster into its operating system than the Amiga. Should I add all activity on my PC to the start-up time? Because I open thousands of web browser tabs everyday, and sometimes open hundreds of folders and compressed archives, play a few games, sometimes three pretty complex IDE:s, many instances of Paint.net and Foxit Reader and more...

Let's pick another case to clarify why I think the C64 is SUPERIOR to the Amiga: I can boot "The Final Cartridge III" faster than you will ever be able to boot into Amiga OS or even the insert disk screen. TFC III contains functionality for basic usability - there is a mouse driven GUI, a calculator, some disk and tape utilities, a clock with a timer, a game data editor, a note pad where you can print, save and load text, and if you want you can very immediately exit into BASIC or a machine code monitor.

All in all, it's handled more responsively than possible with the inferior Amiga OS, and much much faster than the comparably primitive PC.
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #303 on: June 04, 2009, 06:19:49 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;509198
It happens by default with famous PC compilers. ck and 10+ button joysticks suck as well.  I rather have a one or two button joystick rather than complicate things for kids playing games with 10+ joysticks.  "Sorry you pressed Select instead of A".  "Sorry you pressed Start although it's labeled as Select."  "Sorry you pressed the right white button instead of left black one."  Now take this into context of a fast shoot-em up game.

So, basically sub ms joystick polling is mad important to you, but more than two buttons drives you up the wall. LOL, this gets better and better. Please continue.
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #304 on: June 04, 2009, 06:22:40 PM »
Out of curiosity, does anybody know enough about hid game controllers to comment on if it's possible to get events from it with less than 1 ms between events? I know USB latency *round* trip is like 5 ms.
 

Offline meega

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #305 on: June 04, 2009, 06:29:47 PM »
Here is a 1ms mouse.
:)
 

Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #306 on: June 04, 2009, 06:37:14 PM »
Quote from: Linde;509200
It still boots faster into its operating system than the Amiga. Should I add all activity on my PC to the start-up time? Because I open thousands of web browser tabs everyday, and sometimes open hundreds of folders and compressed archives, play a few games, sometimes three pretty complex IDE:s, many instances of Paint.net and Foxit Reader and more...

Let's pick another case to clarify why I think the C64 is SUPERIOR to the Amiga: I can boot "The Final Cartridge III" faster than you will ever be able to boot into Amiga OS or even the insert disk screen. TFC III contains functionality for basic usability - there is a mouse driven GUI, a calculator, some disk and tape utilities, a clock with a timer, a game data editor, a note pad where you can print, save and load text, and if you want you can very immediately exit into BASIC or a machine code monitor.

All in all, it's handled more responsively than possible with the inferior Amiga OS, and much much faster than the comparably primitive PC.


If you like staring a OS booting and NOT doing anything, then you stick to that criterion.  I won't.  I also know how to burn files (applications) into ROMs and boot up Amiga.  Moot point given C64 userbase relies on disk drives.
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #307 on: June 04, 2009, 06:43:14 PM »
Quote from: koaftder;509201
So, basically sub ms joystick polling is mad important to you, but more than two buttons drives you up the wall. LOL, this gets better and better. Please continue.


It's a separate point regarding the buttons.  I never stated that sub ms is of prime importance but is required in some cases and that it's UNDOABLE on Gameport.  Even if you sample at 60Hz, Amiga wins but it is doable on PC gameports.  MOVE.W $DFF00A,D0 is faster than an entire algorithm using IN from 201h or serial protocol.
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Offline persia

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #308 on: June 04, 2009, 07:09:22 PM »
Just saw this joystick.  Looks like it would be neat to use with UAE.

http://www.thumbsupuk.com/products/USB-Classic-Joystick.htm?id=3&subid=&prodid=562&cc=
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Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #309 on: June 04, 2009, 07:20:42 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;509206
It's a separate point regarding the buttons.  I never stated that sub ms is of prime importance but is required in some cases and that it's UNDOABLE on Gameport.  Even if you sample at 60Hz, Amiga wins but it is doable on PC gameports.  MOVE.W $DFF00A,D0 is faster than an entire algorithm using IN from 201h or serial protocol.


Under which specific cases is it required?
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Offline Linde

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #310 on: June 04, 2009, 07:37:02 PM »
Quote from: amigaksi;509198
It happens by default with famous PC compilers.   Looks like you replied to this message without reading the entire posting since what you argued against initially was answered later.
Sigh. Please repeat it for me then. What exactly IS your point? Is it that not knowing what you're doing may result in bad code and less-than-optimal file sizes and execution times? Because yes, I very much agree with that, but I still don't see how it's relevant. You can produce horrible code on any system.

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
The anim files decompress on the fly-- no streaming or disk reads.
Then some form of lesser compression with bigger files and shorter extraction time would be faster.

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
But Amiga has the edge since if you use OCS standard hardware, it works across the board on all Amigas and you don't have to use APIs.
No, if you write an app that uses standard OCS hardware (let's say an old A500) or even uses the kernel functions that's in no way a guarantee in itself that it will work on other Amiga systems.

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
I'm glad you agree on something.
Great. So what are you trying to say?

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
Adlib is not supported by all audio cards and even those it's supported on don't use the same I/O port.
No, but Adlib sound was definitely supported in the majority of sound cards, and telling the program what port to use can be as simple as passing a parameter when launching it or reading an environment variable. Perhaps not common, but as I said, definitely possible.

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
In sound, 44Khz..48Khz is enough but in the case of joysticks, IT CAN make a difference.  It all depends on how fast the software is sampling the joystick and WHEN it samples.  Anyway, your point that humans can't react that fast is false since you can produce millisecond accurate state changes in the joystick that are not NOISE.
How come normal Amiga and C64 games feel so responsive when they read the joystick only once or twice per frame anyway?


Quote from: amigaksi;509198
I can say the same for Audio.  
Hahaha, let's see... Audio apps that make full and non-redundant use of 44.1 kHz audio... Well, to be honest I'd rather do multi-track destructive sound editing and recording at a higher frequency (and as high bit depth as possible) to get some frequency head room. If you've ever done any audio editing you know what I mean. A higher sampling frequency can also be used to account for a low bit depth (and yeah, in terms of recording and mixing, 16 bits often aren't quite enough). Some KORG recorders for example sample 1-bit sound at a 20-something MHz rate. The sound can then be filtered digitally for very high fidelity audio.

But yeah, you still didn't show me a game that utilizes 1 KHz joystick polling.

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
So, how does that make it faster than Amigas I/O port access like MOVE.W $DFF00A,D0.
I never said it was faster, just superior in every other regard, and definitely SUFFICIENTLY fast.

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
It has catching up to do until you prove that you have faster joystick interface that people are using out there right now.
Amiga has some catching up to do with Burger King, because they are serving good hamburgers that people are eating right now.

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
Believe it or not, people still access hardware I/O ports on PCs in kernel drivers.  I write some of these so I know.
If you are writing kernel drivers you should know what a devastating effect unrestricted access to hardware registers could have in a complex system like Windows XP. I certainly don't want my Windows install to bluescreen as often and unexpectedly as my Amiga comes to a Guru meditation.

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
But PC has catching up to do in regards to Amiga's real-time set-up.
Windows XP isn't an optimal system for real-time applications, no, but what on earth made you believe that they were trying to be?

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
Not ports, USB joysticks that are faster than Amiga's joystick interface.
Well, there are none. Reading ADCs and multiple buttons and passing it serially to the application in a system-friendly way might never be as fast as reading five mechanical switches. Boo-hoo.

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
Analog sticks suck and 10+ button joysticks suck as well.  I rather have a one or two button joystick rather than complicate things for kids playing games with 10+ joysticks.  "Sorry you pressed Select instead of A".  "Sorry you pressed Start although it's labeled as Select."  "Sorry you pressed the right white button instead of left black one."  Now take this into context of a fast shoot-em up game.
LOL, you can make up would-be scenarios too, I see, but in real life kids are very fast to learn (often much faster than we are). Well, I guess not liking more than two buttons is a matter of taste, really, but most gamers and kids seem to agree with me.

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
They can all seem instantaneous, but there's factually some time they take.
If it SEEMS instantaneous (being a HUMAN INTERFACE DEVICE), what the is the point of pushing it further?

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
Complete bullcrap.
Yeah, that's the next thing for you to show then (after you've shown me a 1 kHz joystick game): An ergonomic four axis analog controller with vibration and 10 buttons. In my opinion we're already in deep water at "ergonomic", because none of the Amiga controllers I've used have been ergonomically sound at all (well, maybe the joyboard ;)). Closest to beef is using a SEGA Mega Drive controller, I guess.

Quote from: amigaksi;509198
That's your worst argument so far.  Use a piece of hardware.  As I stated before, if I use hardware, anything can be done on any computer.
I'm sorry then, but that's the PC philosophy. External processors, controllers and hardware devices are used for everything. In the end it just means a huge amount of available (and compatible at API level) peripherals, expansions and gadgets at competitive prices, and a higher economic pressure for further development.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 08:34:30 PM by Linde »
 

Offline DonnyEMU

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #311 on: June 04, 2009, 07:49:11 PM »
When the Amiga catches up to multi-touch PCs and THIS on the XBOX-360, then I'll know it has a future..

Introducing Project Natal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_txF7iETX0&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxU_T7C4Ils&feature=player_embedded

This is no joke, I saw this functional over a year ago..
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Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #312 on: June 04, 2009, 08:01:00 PM »
Quote from: DonnyEMU;509216
When the Amiga catches up to multi-touch PCs and THIS on the XBOX-360, then I'll know it has a future..

Introducing Project Natal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_txF7iETX0&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxU_T7C4Ils&feature=player_embedded

This is no joke, I saw this functional over a year ago..


I bet the execs at Nintendo aren't too happy with this, eh?
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Offline Trev

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #313 on: June 04, 2009, 09:07:21 PM »
Quote from: koaftder;509202
Out of curiosity, does anybody know enough about hid game controllers to comment on if it's possible to get events from it with less than 1 ms between events? I know USB latency *round* trip is like 5 ms.


You could create a device that samples at an arbitrary frequency and buffers the data to the host system. You wouldn't get the data in "real-time," but it wouldn't matter. As long you process the data appropriately prior to the next screen update, you have the appearance of submillisecond sampling. This is where the psychology of user interaction and a cost-benefit analysis of your input scheme comes into play.
 

Offline GadgetMaster

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #314 from previous page: June 04, 2009, 09:29:07 PM »
Just saw the tags and I think they sum up this thread better than anyone else has managed to do:  :hammer:

amiga ,  catchup ,  complete bollocks ,  denial ,  fantasy ,  flamefest ,  ibm pc ,  loljoystick ,  playing ,  troll ,  uninformed :roflmao: