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AuthorTopic: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.  (Read 7693 times)

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Offline Kronos

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Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2003, 04:21:50 AM »
@Olegil

Small difference is, that it wasn't(isn't) clear wether Eyetech actually paid for the
Magig-Packs or not while it is clear that BB paid the OS3.9s.

@Dan

Whats the difference between bundling and "selling together" ?
Tell you what, it is just a fancy way of saying just the same.

It may be that they would have to list both items seperatly on the bill, like:

 Pegasos 2-mobo Euro 299.99
AmigaOS-3.9         Euro      0.1  :-P

1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline Wolfe

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2003, 05:01:10 AM »
Quote
First, EULA- End Users License Agreement- only applies, as its name implies, to the End User. Therefore, Sustainable or not, McEwen's comments only apply to end Users.  They are not, and cannot be, a threat to Genesi, as they are not End Users. At least not in their functions as resellers.


Are you a lawyer?  In a court of law, an end user can be anyone currently in possession of the item in question.  If genesi sells, packages or promotes OS X with the Pegasos they can be liable.  End User is a generic term.
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Offline Acill

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2003, 05:38:18 AM »
@ Mark Time
Quote
Now, I have made a HUGE POINT of this...and REPEATEDLY....breaking a EULA...and in the case of Mac OS X, there is no dispute the EULA exists and is clear...is PIRACY.


First off this isnt bout OS X. We all have read your comments on that issue. I for one agree with that SOME. However with 1.0 to 3.9 for classic Amiga I see no reason at all why we cant install it on an emulation system. The old hardware is slowly getting old and soon will be gone. We see systems every day that wont boot any longer here. I've lost systems myself. Amiga Inc makesno money at all from ANY lassic hardware. NONE. They do make money on the sales of 3.9 in some respects. Why not install it on any system that can run it under emulation? Thats just MORE sales.

NOW, as for OS4 thats totally a diffrent story. I agree 100% that this should not be on anything other then an AMIGA. The new hadware needs to sell, and this is how it will sell. With a strong and good looking OS4.

WHO CARES ABOUT THE OLD SOFTWARE?!!? LEt it be sold and installed on what people have!
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Offline AmigaHeretic

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2003, 05:39:00 AM »
2 questions:

1.  Being that Mac OS X has a far larger audience with many more 'modern' apps available than Amiga OS 3.9, why is Genesi not offering to bundle Mac OS X with the Pegasus at the customer's request/cost as this would help them sell more systems?

2.  Do you think Apple would care that Genesi was bundling Mac OS X with their hardware?

IMO:

As far as the debate over the EULA goes, I don't think Apple would ever go after 'John Doe users'  that purchased MAC OS X legally and run it on hardware other than Apples hardware. But,  If a company is selling Mac OS X with their hardware (ie. Pegasus) then I think they would go after that 'company'.

Selling Mac OS with a computer IS the same as selling a "Macintosh Clone" computer.

We already know how Apple feels about clones.
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Offline iamaboringperson

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2003, 06:22:43 AM »
Quote
sign on the dotted line" is widely known to be a method of signing a contract, clicking on a button isn't,
Actually it's just more traditional, we live in a time where there are all sorts of new technologies, and in most countries we are lucky enough that contract law allows for a variety of ways to make a contract.  Did you know that in Australia illiterate aboriginal people sometimes sign documents using nothing but a 'cross' on the piece of paper. How this would effect a court case I don't know. But it's nice to know the flexability is there.

Quote
which is why I argue that there needs to be extra consideration as to whether it really counts. It would seem a rather bizarre situtation if *absolutely anything* can be counted as meaning agreement, and that one side gets to decide this method, without worrying about what the other party thinks.
IMO if you don't like to sign - don't sign, if you don't like to click - don't click. Some people would see clicking on 'I agree' as being much more convenient than signing a document and sending it through the post for example.
Quote
I sign these things before I hand over the money. If I came home one day to find that I wasn't able to get into my flat because the locks had been changed, and the landlord said he'd let me back in only when I signed some new conditions, I'd be furious! And this would be downright illegal for him to do. The fact that I might have the choice to move elsewhere is irrelevant - we already made a contract.
Well, imagine if you had to sit in the computer shop and sign on the dotted line there? There are not many other alternatives, that I can imagine. Especialy not ones that are as convienient for the end user.
I believe that these clickable contracts(hey I invented a term there!) are mainly there for the end users convenience, i think some old software just had registration cards to send in.

Quote
Really? Does this mean you will send me money for posting to this thread? (see my earlier message) ;)
What it means is that if you said "I sell XYZ product, send me an email telling me that you want it, I'll send it out to you and bill you for it", and if I were to do as you instructed, I have made an order, a contract(or agreement) has been made, and you would be obliged to send what I ordered, and I would be obliged to pay for it.
Quote
If on the other hand people were being asked to sign contracts before we paid for them, then that would be fair enough.
Do you think it should change?
Quote
And then hopefully people would wonder why they're being asked to sign legal documents to use software, when we don't have to do this for any other common product.
Most other products are not subject to some of the legal problems that software is, eg. Piracy.

@all
IMO it is really helpful for everybody if they learn a bit about contracts.
Did you know that when you buy an item from a shop, they give you the item, you give the money - there a contract has just been made.
If you use a vending machine, contracts still applicable.

There is a wider definition of the word 'contract' than most people think. :-)
 

Offline iamaboringperson

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2003, 06:37:23 AM »
http://law.freeadvice.com/general_practice/contract_law/
:-) Found a resouce that might help, I don't know how good it is however :-)
 

Offline tintin

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2003, 08:23:53 AM »
Be careful who you call an end user.  This article may shed some light:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23073.html
I think the whole discussion between Genesi and A.inc has it's foundation in similar interpretations of the law by one side or the other.  I don't know who's right or wrong in this.  Just that things are not always crystal clear.
I hope this contributed in a positive way to the discussion.
 

Offline iamaboringperson

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2003, 08:28:34 AM »
So who's tintin?
 

Offline tintin

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2003, 08:34:12 AM »
Nobody special, just an old time Belgian Amiga user  (Still have a 4000/040 somewhere) dropping in now and then to see what's happening in the Amiga comunity these days.
 

Offline Fats

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2003, 10:08:56 AM »
Quote

Kronos wrote:
 Pegasos 2-mobo Euro 299.99
AmigaOS-3.9         Euro      0.1  :-P



OK, but then in some countries like here in Belgium you will need to offer the AmigaOS-3.9 for that same price even if you don't order the Pegasos 2-mobo.
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Offline redrumloa

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Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2003, 12:32:15 PM »
@tintin

Nobody special? pfft :-o  Welcome to Amiga.org(or welcome back) :-)
Someone has to state the obvious and that someone is me!
 

Offline Rassilon

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #86 on: August 22, 2003, 12:36:18 PM »
Lots of peoples argurments here stem from the clash of the 3.9 EULA with AmigaForever/Amithlon etc.

But they are not the same marketable products - therefore its more than likely that they have different EULA's, thus rendering your argument void.

It would clash with the original OS3.9 EULA if you tried to install it on AmigaForever, or perhaps an A1, but if you you used the appropriate version, i.e. the A1 version of OS4  on an A1 the EULA would be written accordingly.

Anyway, as far as the A1's go for all intents and purposes they were created with AOS4 in mind, with the intention that it would ship with them. Therefore theoretically they would come preinstalled with OS4 if they could thus fulfilling the EULA of OS3.9.

Rassilon
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Offline Serpi

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #87 on: August 22, 2003, 01:08:24 PM »
Quote
Because more people want AmigaOS?

This is the thing I'm wondering about in the whole thread...
Why the hell do Pegasos/MOS people want OS3.9?
I mean, it's always told that that MOS is that superior and does (or will do) everything a classic Amiga can do.
And as there are so much people telling that the TCP/IP stack in OS3.9 is not licenced (as an argument why it isn't so bad not to have one in MOS) do they now want that thing from the OS3.9 cd?
The only thing you need a real AmigaOS would be for using UAE, but - as MOS is such a good Amiga emulation - you do only need it for hardware banging software, most of them classic games, but surely not a single one that needs OS3.5/3.9, better to get OS1.2 to 3.1 for that (there is surely no hardware banging software that needs more then OS3.1).
So, why does a Pegasos owner should want OS3.9?

(I really mean this question serious, no flaming!)

Ciao, Alfred
 

Offline redrumloa

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Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #88 on: August 22, 2003, 01:15:22 PM »
@Serpi

No problem with your question. Really the only interest in ) OS3.9 for MOS users like myself is convience. OS3.9's biggest plus is it bundles tons of freeware off Aminet that Amigans use daily and take for granted. It basically saves time so you don't have to scour Aminet for additional LIBS and such. MOS user can get by without it just fine, but it does add value.

I'd say think of installing OS3.1 fresh on an Amiga. You'd spend alot of time on Aminet adding all the little tidbits you want to spruce up your system. Don't get me wrong, MOS1.4 is much more complete than OS3.1 but you get my point.
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Offline Serpi

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #89 on: August 22, 2003, 01:29:00 PM »
Quote
OS3.9's biggest plus is it bundles tons of freeware off Aminet that Amigans use daily and take for granted.

I never noticed that when using OS3.9, what software do you mean?
Really, I cannot remember "tons of freeware" that I have installed together with OS3.9; most things are part of OS3.9 (new icon.library, workbench.library, the Dock, aml.library, etc) or not so free software (Genesis, cd file system) or it's ARexx, where people again are telling, it's doubtfull that it's really licenced for OS3.x.
And from the few usefull things in the contribution folder, that are *really* freeware, there surely exists already a newer version in Aminet, so you should better go and get some AMinet cds.
Quote
Don't get me wrong, MOS1.4 is much more complete than OS3.1 but you get my point.

I believe that MOS1.4 has more features then OS3.1 (even when still missing a few OS3.1 features/parts) but it seems it's far away from completing compatibility to the last official AmigaOS, that's the only reason I see for this.
And so, no, I do not really get your point, I'm afraid. I think, instead of buying OS3.9 cds, Genesi should work harder to get MOS more compatible with AmigaOS.

Ciao, Alfred