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AuthorTopic: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.  (Read 7697 times)

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Offline olegil

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #90 on: August 22, 2003, 01:30:28 PM »
Eeek. After having played around with 3.5 on my Access board I wouldn't touch anything below 3.9 with a 40 foot pole ;-)

It's the SMALL things that make the BIG difference. Ironic, but imho true. :-P
 

Offline redrumloa

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Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #91 on: August 22, 2003, 01:37:36 PM »
@Serpi

Personally I wouldn't bother buying an OS3.9 CD if I purchased a Pegasos right now. I am just trying to explain why someone might.
Someone has to state the obvious and that someone is me!
 

Offline olegil

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #92 on: August 22, 2003, 03:47:26 PM »
@Wolfe and whoever you replied to:

Well, that's all nice, but my real point was NOT that Genesi  are in breach of the EULA. I wrote that it's questionable because they're effectively tricking end users into breaking it. Why aren't anyone commenting on this? I must be either dead right or dead wrong, I'm thinking.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #93 on: August 22, 2003, 04:08:51 PM »
Just so it is clear what is discussed:

AmigaOS 3.5 License

AmigaOS3.9 License

Note the files are quite big, scans of the booklet that comes with OS3.5 as well as the (quite identical) one that is printed on the inside of the CD cover.  If there is any interest, I could also scan the german versions.

As is obvious from the licenses, no use of OS3.5 or OS3.9 on UAE, be it Amiga4ever or not, is allowed (Amiga4ever does not provide a "licensed computer", it is just a software package) and also it violates the license to modify and creating derivatives of any part of the "Amiga Software", this is what we know as patching, meaning that replacing rom modules, creating custom kickstarts, GhostBuster version of Sys:Prefs/Workbench, patched locales and whatnot is also violating that License.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM460 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline Dan

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #94 on: August 22, 2003, 04:28:07 PM »
Quote

Kronos wrote:
@Dan

Whats the difference between bundling and "selling together" ?
Tell you what, it is just a fancy way of saying just the same.

It may be that they would have to list both items seperatly on the bill, like:

 Pegasos 2-mobo Euro 299.99
AmigaOS-3.9         Euro      0.1  :-P


That is only part of it, it would also require to be ordered as separate items and be packaged as such just like if you bought it from an amigashop.
If BB want to be totally in the clear, i think he must make it possible for people to buy AmigaOS without buying a Pegasos.

If stating that you can run another os under emulation is to encourage people to commit a crime, which in it self is a crime and  if the EULA is H&Ps or Amiga Incs and if Amiga Inc in that case can uphold H&Ps EULA is another matter and for a court to decide.

And shouldn´t that be AmigaOS3.9 0.01Euro. :-)

As for EULAs in general an I Agree button is surely not good enough here in Sweden.
It doesn´t even say WHO it is that agrees!!! My cat?? the neighbours two year old??? a senile old man that passed by???
How can it be a personal license if anybody can agree with it????
If You had to enter your name and adress and the serial code from the software disk to agree that would be better.

And   then there is the whole EULA is not printed on the box issue.
You can´t force a contract on somebody after they have bought something!
What if Amiga Inc wants a monthly fee if you use an AmigaOS???? Hey, here is the new contract now pay us.
I mean really, be reasonable about this.

If Apple doesn´t want people to run OS X on non-Apple-machines then they should print that on the box.
Apple did it right the first time, bring back the Newton!
 

Offline tintin

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #95 on: August 22, 2003, 10:10:06 PM »
@redrumloa
thanx for the welcome, this seems like a lively website... didn't know the Amiga comunity was still that alive

@all
Contracts such as EULAs are supposed to be made between willing parties, and need to be negotiable if one side doesn't agree with the terms. But some EULA contracts might fall under the definition of a Contract of Adhesion, a legal term that means one party to the agreement has tremendous power, and there's no meaningful way to negotiate the terms.

Of course, anyone can click the "I Decline" button at the bottom of a EULA. But if you do, the software won't install or you won't be able to use the service. The binary nature of the EULA accept-or-decline rules render negotiating contract terms with a software company impossible for the average user.

In the US the federal digital signature law makes it clear that click-wrap contracts are enforceable, but there always has to be a meaningful way to say "no". "Any ambiguities in a contract would be interpreted by the courts against the drafter".  The question thus becomes : "Do we have a case of an ambiguous EULA here ?"
I'm sure lawyers can argue about this but it's merky waters if you ask me.  So anyone asking for a clear "yes" or "no" is asking a lot IMO.


 

Offline mdwh2

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #96 on: August 22, 2003, 10:31:34 PM »
Quote

iamaboringperson wrote:
IMO if you don't like to sign - don't sign, if you don't like to click - don't click. Some people would see clicking on 'I agree' as being much more convenient than signing a document and sending it through the post for example.
So how do I use my software without clicking the "I agree"? If this was done as a seperate option, so that the software was still installable and useable without having to agree, then I agree that such a contract would be fair and enforceable.

Quote

Well, imagine if you had to sit in the computer shop and sign on the dotted line there? There are not many other alternatives, that I can imagine. Especialy not ones that are as convienient for the end user.
I believe that these clickable contracts(hey I invented a term there!) are mainly there for the end users convenience, i think some old software just had registration cards to send in.
Signing versus clicking isn't the issue. The issue is seeing the terms before paying, versus seeing these terms only after paying. The issue is being given the choice of whether you want to agree or not, versus finding out that the thing you paid and made a contract for doesn't work until you give into this additional contract.
Quote

Quote
Really? Does this mean you will send me money for posting to this thread? (see my earlier message) ;)
What it means is that if you said "I sell XYZ product, send me an email telling me that you want it, I'll send it out to you and bill you for it", and if I were to do as you instructed, I have made an order, a contract(or agreement) has been made, and you would be obliged to send what I ordered, and I would be obliged to pay for it.
But EULAs don't work like you describe at all! In your example, the terms are laid out before payment, and a fully working product is then sent out without requiring additional hidden contracts. What we have is an arbitrary action that is legal for the user to do, and an action that they would probably want to do even if they don't agree to some contract (be it posting to this thread, or installing the software). Someone saying "if you do this, then you agree with that" doesn't make it a contract, unless "this" is something that they would only do because they actually agree with "that".

Quote
Do you think it should change?
I think that either: The terms should be available before payment - if it's online, you should be made to agree to them via an "I Agree" click; if it's offline, the salesperson should draw the person's attention to them, and state that they must agree to them before as part of the purchase. Or alternatively, the software should be installable and useable without having to agree to an additional contract.

You'll see that nowhere am I suggesting we go through the process of signing a contract, so the argument that a EULA is more convenient doesn't hold. It's only more "convenient" for the company :/

Quote

Most other products are not subject to some of the legal problems that software is, eg. Piracy.
But Piracy is covered by law. How does an additional contract help matters here? The only use I can see is that it clarifies what they can and can't do (as opposed to trying to define the law itself).

Quote

Did you know that when you buy an item from a shop, they give you the item, you give the money - there a contract has just been made.
If you use a vending machine, contracts still applicable.
Exactly! The contract has already been made when I'm sitting here trying to install my legally purchased software. Which is why there is no need to agree to *another* contract.
 

Offline pixie

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #97 on: August 23, 2003, 04:28:33 AM »
@MarkTime

In Marktime world, even if you pay for the software you use you are still called a Pirate...  I'm pretty happy (with sugar on top) that I don't have to live there!

You can run as it stand, period!

You do not need any ROM, period!

You could be called pirate if you didn't own somekind of ROM needed to run the software that was on CD, because you wouln't owned it, period!

I guess it sum it all, period!

P-S. Damn this period key! ;-)


pixie- writing from a paradise called Portugal
 

Offline pixie

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #98 on: August 23, 2003, 04:30:32 AM »
@Kronos
The question regarding Amiga EULA is not weather BB payed for OS3.9, but wether BB had payed for 3.1 ROMS

@Rassilon
> It would clash with the original OS3.9 EULA if you tried to install it on
> AmigaForever, or perhaps an A1, but if you you used the appropriate version,
> i.e. the A1 version of OS4 on an A1 the EULA would be written accordingly.

Do you thing that it would clash with AmigaForever an Amiga licensee!? Why!? It's already have installed 3.1, don't see where's the problem... It's officially endorsment by Amiga Inc...


@Kolla
It isn't a 'licensed computer'? Well it's a licensed product and it runs on a computer besides, it got a sticker!! ;-)

Now seriously, it got all its hardware components licensed albeit in a virtual form so... I guess it's still is a 'licensed computer' after all...


pixie- writing from a paradise called Portugal
 

Offline mdwh2

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #99 on: August 23, 2003, 05:27:16 AM »
pixie:

"it got a sticker!!"

In fact, the licence says "Amiga-labeled or Amiga-licensed" .. I've got a few Amiga labels lying around here, I could always stick them to my PC if necessary ;)

Hmm, whilst reading through, I noticed an interesting bit at the end:

"No amendment or modification of the License will be binding unless in writing and signed by Amiga."

I like that. Whilst we are assumed to have agreed to the License merely by reading it or using the software, we have to resort to strict official measures if we want to get Amiga to agree to anything. Why can't I just post a copy of my preferred License to Amiga, and say "If you don't send a letter back saying No, I'll assume you agree with it"? If EULAs are supposedly for the consumer's convenience to avoid the hassle of signing, why doesn't the same logic apply to Amiga?
 

Offline Kronos

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Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #100 on: August 23, 2003, 08:13:26 AM »
@Pixie

Beeeep wrong  :-D

You don't need an Amiga-ROM to run 3.9 on MOS.

I even managed to run 3.9 by accident when I got my Peg  :-o

I just installed the HD from my A4000 to copy some files, but forgot it was setted
to a very high boot-pri. All over sudden I had Amidock and all that stuff
showing up  :-P  :-D
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline pixie

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #101 on: August 23, 2003, 10:20:17 AM »
@Kronos

Whopsie, ;-) didn't know that... that way my apologies...


pixie- writing from a paradise called Portugal
 

Offline pixie

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #102 on: August 23, 2003, 10:21:50 AM »
@mdwh2 :

For Gods sake, if it's an Amiga branded licensee it can't go against Amigas EULA, now can it!?? :-x


pixie- writing from a paradise called Portugal
 

Offline DaveP

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #103 on: August 23, 2003, 10:34:03 AM »
Quote

So how do I use my software without clicking the "I agree"? If this was done as a seperate option, so that the software was still installable and useable without having to agree, then I agree that such a contract would be fair and enforceable.

You don't use the software if you cannot agree to the Ts and Cs under which it is sold. Send it back. Simple.

Hate figure. :lol:
 

Offline Kronos

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Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #104 on: August 23, 2003, 11:37:00 AM »
@Dave

Or I play it the other way round:

I bought my SW at a shop (real or online doesn't matter), and ONLY those
terms visible at/before purchase form the contract I have with the dealer
or producer of said SW.


Thats how most courts see it in civilized countries.

1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else