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AuthorTopic: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.  (Read 7754 times)

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Offline Step

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2003, 10:02:01 PM »
@marktime

A EULA would be a valid contract if you signed it, but since in most cases you do not, its not a valid contract.
However, the right thing is of course to go back to the store and demand a refund since you obvisously dont agree to the terms.
Theres only one problem, take my Adobe Acrobat box for instance, it says on the outside that the use of the product is regulated through the license agreement on the media.
And there is NO WAY that a shop will make a refund on software that you have opened since they are assuming you have already copied it. Therfore IMO i am entitled to fair use of the product, even if its not strictly is acording to the EULA.

My point here is not that all EULAs are wrong, but that the producer really should make the EULA accessible outside the box.
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Offline redrumloa

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Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2003, 10:02:52 PM »
Quote
a EULA is a valid contract


Please point me to court cases where this has been enforced.

Sodomy is illegal in some US states. Does that make being gay illegal there? I guess so! Would it hold up in court? No.
Someone has to state the obvious and that someone is me!
 

Offline Wolfe

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2003, 10:10:56 PM »
@Marktime

Quote
1.) Buy a License to run Mac OS X on Apple Branded hardware for $120
2.) Copy Mac OS X to your Pegasos and run it, though you don't have a license to do so.

Act 2 is still piracy.


Right - If you are using your OS X on both your Mac & Peg.
Wrong - if you have a purchased OS X specifically for your Peg.  Not Piracy. . . . . .

  Who said you were buying a License to run Mac OS X on Apple Branded hardware.  Is the EULA plastered all over the OS X box?  No !  You find out about it AFTER you purchased it when you go to install it..
  Apple would be responsible to make sure everyone who purchased OS X was using it on Apple Branded Hardware.  And would not be able to sell it outright and enforce such restrictions.

The Judge: (friend family reunion) was asked this same question by me a couple of months ago when this same topic was running before.  EULA protect's a Corporation/Product from miss use buy other Corps.  

  Basically he said, after much laughter, that "any Corp vs EndUser trying to enforce such nonsense in his court room would get slapped with contempt for tying up the wheels of justice."  Purely for being stupid!
  As a judge - the EndUser would be given the benifit of the doubt reguardless - what if he's autistic and doesn't read the same thing you do?  Not Enforcable !  If you (A Corp) had a jury to decide - the EndUser would walk away with $ in hand for harrasment, thats if you could find a judge willing to take a "no win" BS case like this.

Piracy has some teeth - but the EULA for an end user not pirating has NO TEETH.   :-)

Lets arrest for trial all those who rent movies and make a copy for personal use - technically that is illegal too.  But not enforceable in a court of law.   :-o

EULA for A Inc and Genesi may have some merit but for the end user in the US - Baugh Humbug ! :-D
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Offline olegil

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2003, 10:12:36 PM »
Seriously, there's nothing in my upbringing(sp?) that makes me think of _using_ OSX or UAE/3.9/Magic Packs or 3.5 on an Access or bits of 3.9 on a Pegasos _if I have gone out and paid for it_.

No, I'm serious. I do not think I would go to hell for using OSX on non-apple hardware.

I do find the idea of advertising/bundling to trick people into breaking the EULA questionable, though. I'm not saying unethical, but I question it, AmigaInc are saying it's illegal, Genesi says it's ok because they have a license (I presume they mean they paid for it).

Btw: I'm not anti-EULA per se(sp?), I am just saying there are certain points in some EULAs that do NOT stick either when tried in court certain places, OR when tried against the old ten commandments (which I do try to live by, btw. Even if I do kill the odd moose and download the odd episode of SG1).
 

Offline bhoggett

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2003, 10:22:07 PM »
@Lando

Quote
Unless the PC already had AmigaOS installed when you bought it, you're still breaking the EULA. This also includes AmgaOnes that come pre-installed with Linux. To install UAE and run OS3.5 or 3.9 would be in breach of the EULA.


That's absolutely true. Even though the AmigaOne may be both "Amiga-branded" and "Amiga-licensed", it does not satisfy the qualification that AmigaOS must be installed on it when you buy it.

It's a stupid EULA, of course, but any AmigaOne owners running AmigaOS 3.5 or 3.9 on it under UAE are breaking the licensing conditions - which automatically invalidates the license according to the EULA itself.
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline bhoggett

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #50 on: August 21, 2003, 10:37:59 PM »
@MarkTime

Quote
What if I am allowed to break a contract in my country...so what, do only laws govern your values, or is your word and integrity important on a level above the law?


That's a spurious argument. According to you, it is the moral obligation of a user to respect a EULA, even when the conditions imposed by that license are illegal in his country.

That's utter hypocrisy.

Either the law is the final standard by which actions are judged, or else people get to make their own moral judgments. You can't have a bit of both, whichever suits you best.

The point that has been made is fair: a lot of American products are sealed with a sticker that says that by breaking the seal you agree to their license, which in most cases cannot be read until after you have broken the seal.  The vast majority of courts in the vast majority of countries will throw out that clause for a start, as it is blatantly illegal.

Furthermore, if the law of any country allows the use of certain software under a "fair use" clause, even if that breaks the EULA, the user is NOT a pirate and not doing anything wrong.

If companies want to make their EULAs respected, they should ensure that they do not contain any clauses which are illegal in any country in the world. (Now there's a challenge for you).

Having said that, I agree that people who are ready to break the Apple EULA should not whine about the Amiga Inc EULA being broken.
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline iamaboringperson

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #51 on: August 21, 2003, 10:58:47 PM »
Quote
A EULA would be a valid contract if you signed it, but since in most cases you do not, its not a valid contract.
Wrong. Many things can make a valid contract. A verbal contract is perfectly valid. A 'contract' is basically a fancy name for agreement
By breaking open that seal that came with your software, you are 'agreeing' to the terms of the contract written thereon. By saying yes to a salesmans offer, you are agreeing to the discussed contract.
Writing your signature is only one of the many ways a person may agree to a contract.
Remember those annoying direct mail promotions you get sometimes? (Readers Digest stuff for example) Do you know how you get the labels that they ask you to place in a particular area of one of the envelopes? When you pick a label from thing, and place it in another area, you are effectivly agreeing to a contract(or at least when you send it in, anyway).

I studied a bit of contract law this year, and I know there is more than one way to make a contract(or 'agreement'), there is also more than one way to break a contract.

 

Offline Rigger

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2003, 11:43:44 PM »
First what the EULA was before is irrelevant to what the EULA will be for any future version of the operating system. Companies often change their EULA prior to new releases.

Although not clearly stated I believe Bill McEwens was speaking directly about Amiga OS 4.0. Since I have not seen the EULA for Amiga OS 4.0 it may well state "use is only valid, on Amiga branded machines." This would include only the Amiga One and a PPC equipped A4000/3000/1200.

However unlikely that Amiga, Inc would be knocking on any one individuals door demanding recompensement for breach of contract, the EULA is a valid contract, . The fact will remain that you are in breach of contract if you have used the product in violation of the EULA. This leaves each individual to decide if they will honor the contract and if again however unlikely you are found in breach you should be prepared to accept the consequences.

 

Offline Dan

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2003, 12:19:32 AM »
Quote

olegil wrote:
You don't get it, do you MarkTime?

Noone is saying anything about _copying_ OSX. You install it on a computer that just not happens to be Apple branded. As an end user here in Norway, if I wanted to do this, there is very little Apple could do, afaik. Because it's very tricky for them to dictate how I must use their product. I paid for the right to USE it, not for the right to use it only ever full moon after having sacrificed a virgin goat. Or would have, had I had any interest in OSX.

But I would not advice bundling OSX with non-Apple hardware even though it was paid for. Because tricking end users into breaking a contract is not a good idea.

Same with Genesi/OS3.9. They don't claim to have an official license to bundle this.

@All:
I remember a few weeks ago there was all sorts of #### stirred up about Eyetech shipping UAE and Magic Packs with AmigaOnes. How can that be bad while this is good, btw?

This is not good, from Bill Bucks post:
Quote
2. We had purchased and therefore LICENSED Amiga 3.9 for over 500 potential Pegasos buyers. 3.9 works now through emulation. If a Pegasos owner has 3.5 or 3,9 they can legally use it on the Pegasos.

Clearly he hasn´t  "LICENSED", he has just bought some WB3.9 disks which he can resell just like any other amigadealer. But he can´t bundle them with the Pegasos. Sell them at the same time yes. But put them in a package with the Pegasos and sell them togheter  NO.
Even a 4 year old understands that.

Quote
Btw: I admit to running OS3.5 on non-Amiga branded hardware. But as it came with kickstart 3.1 in ROM I don't think I'm really up #### creek, at least not without a ladder or other means of getting down :-P

I don´t think you will have any trouble with your Access.
Apple did it right the first time, bring back the Newton!
 

Offline T_Bone

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2003, 12:29:21 AM »
> AmigaForever does have 3.1, but not 3.5 or 3.9.
> Older versions only go to 3.0.

However 3.9 has a separate install for emulators. Why would that be there if they don't want it running on a non Amiga branded machine?

Amiga Inc doesn't even sell a branded Amiga computer that will run OS3.9.
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Offline bhoggett

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2003, 12:33:57 AM »
@T_Bone

Quote
However 3.9 has a separate install for emulators. Why would that be there if they don't want it running on a non Amiga branded machine?


As we've discovered, not all copies of OS 3.9 have this "Installation-Emu" option.

As for the "why would it be there?" question, I can't say.  I quoted from the license, I didn't say I thought it was a good licence.
Bill Hoggett
 

Offline Step

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2003, 12:36:31 AM »
@iamaboringperson

Sorry, my point was to say that a EULA could be valid, if handled correctly. The problem is, they are not.
Take the windows update as an example, theres usually an EULA involved, what happens when the OS decides to bug when the interaction with the user is to take place, and hit the i agree button itself, would the user be tied to the agreement ?, ofcourse not.
Theres all sorts of problems with electronic stuff like this and unlike a signature on a paper, where the actual agreement and the signature is tied to eachother, an electronic "i agree" button does not say who actually pushed the button, nor if that person is of legal age etc...
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Offline Hammer

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2003, 01:04:56 AM »
Quote
It's a stupid EULA, of course, but any AmigaOne owners running AmigaOS 3.5 or 3.9 on it under UAE are breaking the licensing conditions - which automatically invalidates the license according to the EULA itself.

Note that, both Amiga Forever  (bundled with WinUAE) and AmigaOne (bundled with PPC Linux UAE) has a valid license from Amiga Inc…
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Offline Hammer

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2003, 01:16:22 AM »
Quote

bhoggett wrote:
@Lando

Quote
Unless the PC already had AmigaOS installed when you bought it, you're still breaking the EULA. This also includes AmgaOnes that come pre-installed with Linux. To install UAE and run OS3.5 or 3.9 would be in breach of the EULA.


That's absolutely true. Even though the AmigaOne may be both "Amiga-branded" and "Amiga-licensed", it does not satisfy the qualification that AmigaOS must be installed on it when you buy it.

It's a stupid EULA, of course, but any AmigaOne owners running AmigaOS 3.5 or 3.9 on it under UAE are breaking the licensing conditions - which automatically invalidates the license according to the EULA itself.

Note that Amiga Forever 5.x has an existing AmigaOS 3.1…
AmigaForever 2016 with AmigaOS 4.1 FE, AMIDuOS\'s Android 5.01, MS Windows 10 Pro X64
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CPU: Intel Core i7-3635QM, 2.4Ghz base, 3.4Ghz turbo.
RAM: 16 GB PC3-12800 (DDR3-1600)
GPU: AMD Radeon HD 8870M (OC) 2GB GDDR5 VRAM.
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Offline Lando

Re: Adult conversation about this whole EULA issue.
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2003, 01:28:19 AM »
Quote

Hammer wrote:
Quote
It's a stupid EULA, of course, but any AmigaOne owners running AmigaOS 3.5 or 3.9 on it under UAE are breaking the licensing conditions - which automatically invalidates the license according to the EULA itself.

Note that, both Amiga Forever  (bundled with WinUAE) and AmigaOne (bundled with PPC Linux UAE) has a valid license from Amiga Inc…


A valid license for what?

What does the license say? "This license allows you to break Haage & Partner's EULA for AmigaOS3.5 and 3.9?"

Can you scan (or type) it in?