Amiga osX

[lempkee]

if mol is piracy , the winuae and such is also piracy , so REMOVE YOUR install of uae now mark!

i hope everyone will understand the seriousness of this , finally all uae users can go stuff their head in a bucket

along with all mol users , maybe they can start a bucket club for locked out people...cool...


sorry...but i found this thread very....MARK(ED) , but if its correct then i agree with mark, but that must also go for all other emu's (and such) aswell..

Xwin is ilegal also then=? ...hmmm ok we live in a dangerous world...glad i have my amiga classic here

[minator]

MarkTime

You seem to be under the impression the contract holds regardless of local laws, this is not true.

I'll give you an example:
I signed an 11 month contract to rent an apartment in Holland once.  This was a rather meaningless contract because after 9 months the law states that the renter can stay permanently.  This law overrules that clause of the contract.  If the landlord tells me to leave after 11 months I can go tell him to take a jump, irrespective of what I signed.

This also holds for software EULAs.  I do not believe that clause has ever been tested in court and in some countries -possibly even the US- it will be overruled.

You also seem to be confusing "breach of contract" with piracy.  If I run OS X on a different computer it may well be breach of contract but if I've paid for it it is not piracy since I haven't broken any copyright laws.

[Gaidheal]

Is breaking a licensing agreement piracy? Of course it is, piracy is a laymens term, but that is what the term means.

Nope.  I already gave you the legal status of the term "software piracy".  In fact it was me who stated it was a "lay term".

I'm not against fair use, not against emulators, not against backup copies. I'm against piracy and piracy alone.

In which case, you are either mistaken about what constitutes piracy or else you are against something other than piracy, specifically you are against people 'breaking' EULAs that in many cases never existed and in others were ammended to allow the use they have in fact made of the software.  If your nation does not allow it (and in fact the jury is out because the precedent is not clear, some cases support it, others not) that is your problem.  Believe me, it is quite clear under English law.

And when someone makes some software, they have the right to decide if they will sell it to you or not, you cannot demand of them that they license it to you under your terms. Hogwash. Not in the UK, thats for sure.

On my terms?  Nope.  Within English/Scottish law?  Absolutely.  I know this is difficult for you to grasp.. so I'll repeat myself.. the clauses you are complaining about are unenforcable under current English law.  I think they are even impossible under EU law regarding competition and fair use, but I am not certain and it does not matter to me wrt this current thread.

Sure in some countries like India you might find your exception, but you don't live in India so give me a break.

How would you know where I live?  :¬)  As it happens, I have indeed lived in India.  I have lived in several other countries too, and by fluke they all would allow exactly what I stated, either by the fair use thing, or else by simply not recognizing the ability to licence it all in that way.  (Some countries say you own the code on the CD, for your own use, including reverse engineering, disassembling, etc)

Also on the moon where there is no official government, this sort of thing is completely legal, but just try getting your broadband connection on the moon, I dare ya.

There is NO government nor law on the moon at all.  Nevermind an "official" one.  Despite the USA trying to claim to own parts of the moon, as well as jurisdiction in space.  :¬) It amuses me that you, of all people raised this one... hehe

[Ponos2D]

Marktime, are all americans like you?
You are hard, man! It's not piracy!

[Waccoon]

AmigaMad:  If its a genuine cd with paperwork that is not piracy as for apple why should they tell you what you can run your software you have paid for on .Its like microsoft with the xbox its a stripped out pc and can run linux but if the users all done it microsoft would lose loads of money due to hardware being sold for less than it cost to make ,they make the money back on the software so they lose out.If i have paid for something and own it i would do whatever i want with it .if it is a copy of the disc that is piracy.

Um, I think you just made a huge point, and then ignored it.

I completely agree with MarkTime, not because, "it's piracy", but because people don't understand how computer companies make money, and don't care.  My big problem with stuff like MacOnLinux, MorphOS, and stuff like that is that there's more to software than just code and libraries.  There's design, planning, testing, advertising, sales relationships... all of that costs money.  Some developers spread out that cost across several products, and then write licenses to ensure those products are used in unison, and their profit margins are distrubuted properly.  Microsoft loses money on XBox and makes up for it on software sales.  That's the way to make money on consoles.  So, it's understandable that they're upset over something like Linux running on XBox.  Microsoft can't really increase the price of XBox to compensate or make special Linux versions of XBox.  It would result in an even worse financial situation.

If you just pay the license fee for software that's designed to be used with a particular piece of hardware, you're probably not paying the "whole" cost of the product.  Increasing the price of MacOS to compensate would hurt Mac customers, so they write license restrictions instead.

It's perfectly reasonable.  If you don't like it, buy a Mac and use the "real" version of MacOS.  You have no right to use the product in a way other than specified by the developer.  You can still try, and you may not get caught, but then, you might.  :-)

Gaidheal:  In which case, you are either mistaken about what constitutes piracy or else you are against something other than piracy, specifically you are against people 'breaking' EULAs that in many cases never existed and in others were ammended to allow the use they have in fact made of the software. If your nation does not allow it (and in fact the jury is out because the precedent is not clear, some cases support it, others not) that is your problem. Believe me, it is quite clear under English law.

Maybe UELA's mean something in America, and nothing elsewhere in the world, but I find it hard to believe that there are not other license restrictions local to other parts of the world.  Remember all those ROMs for MAME that specifically state that the original machines were illegal to sell outside Japan, or Canada, or whatever?  Each country has its own restrictions.  That's why there's different Apple divisions in each country.

I still think that if someone writes software, writes music, makes a movie, etc... they should have complete control over how they sell it.  Whether they do a good job or not, and screw their legal, paying customers, is the real issue.  I remember piracy in its early days, when people traded discs and downloaded stuff off BBS's at 9600 baud, but they made no excuses.  These days, people think it's their God given right to do whatever the hell they want.  People's interpretation of copyrights has really gotten f***ed up since Napster came along.

MarkTime:  ...you fall into the group of pirates who say 'you won't get caught'

That doesn't help, either.  Just about everyone I know falls into this category.

Ponos2D:  Marktime, are all americans like you?
You are hard, man! It's not piracy!

I don't know if piracy is the correct term, legally, but if someone writes software, their copyright gives them total control over how they sell it.  Period.  If you release or distribute a patch to help users violate license agreements, don't be surprised if your webserver gets shut down and you end up in a lawsuit.

[MarkTime]

@Ponos2d

yes I am exactly like all american's

@Gaidheal,

There is another debate mechanism called complex argument...its where a person brings up so much simultaneious BS, that the responder can't possibly hope to correct everything.

Congratulations, you succeeded with that tactic.

And you got me on another one....just one, but I admit it....there is no law on the moon so nothing is legal.  I was supposed to say its not illegal...dagnabit.

But anyway, most people understood what I meant, its not against the *law* anywhere where there is no law.....but just because something is not against the law, doesn't mean you can say its legal, my bad.

But your basic premise, still falls down and you completely ignore FACTS over and over again.

1. You purchase a license to use Mac OS X on apple branded hardware
2.  See above

There really isn't any point in you following me around from thread to thread acting like some kind of psycho...at least I'm only responding to the thread, what are you doing...are you actually offended by a thread on a BBS?  good grief.

yes, you are dishonest.  

A question was put to you when you installed the Apple Software:  Do you agree to the terms of this license?

You clicked:  Yes

But you don't agree.  The honest answer was: No

[Tomas]

Can you also upgrade your license to change the name of it and re-sell it?

Offcourse you cant.. This is about personal use, the freedom to use it on whatever hardware you want, as long as it is for personal use ONLY...  This applies to music also, here it is  still legal to make a backup of your own music cds, for example copy it over to a mini disc or make a extra copy as safety in case you scratch up your orginal disc... And this makes fully sense... When i own the disc, i should be able to use it wherever i want.

[Gaidheal]

There is another debate mechanism called complex argument...its where a person brings up so much simultaneious BS, that the responder can't possibly hope to correct everything.

Nope, a complex argument is one that is complex and has nothing to do with being right or wrong.  If you are finding this one complex, I have to wonder why you attempted to debate it at all.

But your basic premise, still falls down and you completely ignore FACTS over and over again.

Which facts?  What basic premise?  The facts are I know the law in the UK and you are quite incorrect on the definition of piracy in any nation.  My premise is simple:  you are talking out of your arse as regards it being piracy and you are ignorant of the laws you claim you are bothered about.

1. You purchase a license to use Mac OS X on apple branded hardware

Nope.  Never owned any Apple branded anything.  Not likely to either, except just maybe a G5.  Macs are too slow, too expensive, have too small a user base and software market and are proprietary.

There really isn't any point in you following me around from thread to thread acting like some kind of psycho...at least I'm only responding to the thread, what are you doing...are you actually offended by a thread on a BBS? good grief

Sorry to shatter your fantasy world, but I am not following anyone around, least of all you.  Psycho?  Might want to look in the mirror given your above delusion.  Offended?  No.. you seem to be though LOL
Good grief, indeed :¬)

No, not dishonest.  No, no question put to me, but even had it been, the parts you are whingeing about would not constitute part of where I live anyway.  I clicked nothing.  Boring... already answered.. why don't you move on and just admit you don't actually know what you are on about and wanted to try and flame AOS4 people "by the backdoor"?

[Tomas]

then I assume he will also support the copying of Amiga OS 4 within his country, for use on alternate platforms like pegasos.

If you have paid for the cd, yeah.. then you should have the possibility to run it on pegasos if you want, also you should be able to hack the hardware if you need...

Modchips hacks is also still legal here  ;-)  Shops currently offer to mount it for you, in your ps2 or xbox or whatever...

[Casper]

@marktime

If you don't think you have a valid contract, in the EULA, in your country.....Then you simply don't have a contract at all. A contract to use the software on an AmigaONE, didn't materialize out of thin air, certainly.

Don't you see, no contract, means no contract!!!!

license agreements are valid in all euorpean countries, these types of arguments 'it's legal in my country' are very hard to counter, because I readily admit, I don't know the laws of every country of the world. but its by and large BS.

I didn't say thay EULAs weren't valid in Sweden in all cases. I just said that EULAs you can only agree to after you've paid for the software aren't valid.

I actually think this is a good thing. What if you buy an OS for a lot of money and when you get home the EULA says that you can only use it every other sunday between 2 and 3 AM? You've just paid for something that you can hardly ever use and you had no idea these restrictions were there until you tried to install it. At best it's a hassle to get your money back, at worst you don't see that money again.

If you knew about this EULA before you paid for your software you would never have bought it and bought something else instead better suited to your needs.
europe and america both have very strong intellectual property laws, and don't allow piracy.

The reason I will be fairly vocal on this subject, is I am looking for practice in making a certain point clear.

Its obvious to me, that many people feel piracy is OK, and thats life....but many people don't really understand why its wrong, and so its good to sharpen ones skills on this point.

I don't think it is piracy.  If you paid for OS X and want to use it on your AmigaONE instead of your Mac, it is still paid for. If you use it on both your Mac and your A1, then it would be piracy (which would most certainly be illegal here in Sweden).

For example, spending $100 to buy a license for using Mac OS X on a single piece of apple branded hardware, allows you to use Mac OS X for whatever you want? nooooo, not really.

can you buy a 10 person license and use it for 15? Is that OK? Can you buy an upgrade license for XP, and use it to make a full install on an OEM machine?

Not if you have agreed to the EULA in a legally binding way (before you paid for the product). But I think it is actually up to the software company to ensure that their EULA is valid.
Should I just agree to everything that is in the EULA just out of the godness of my heart?

[Tomas]

We also have laws that give everyone the right to make one personal copy of so-called intellectual property for personal use.

Exactly!!

[Tomas]

But I can believe a non-EU country would have a law like that.

Actually i believe sweden has the same law.

I believe most of EU is similar there... I think its mostly only US and UK that dosent allow this.

[MarkTime]

@Gadboy

I'm not offended, but I do think amiga.org members like to keep things in a specific thread, so the thread on MorphOS on AmigaONE shouldn't be for the piracy discussion.

It's just common etiquette, or can we dismiss with etiquette too because its not illegal where you live?

OK, as for what I'm about, *exactly*...its not a secret at all.  Fact is, I think its ridiculous for the Amiga Fan's to insist you can't copy OS 4, when they copy Mac OS X.

I said from the beginning, if you believe you can copy both....OS 4 and Mac OS X, then at least you are consistent and you have more of my respect.

I'm sorry you don't know the debate mechanism complex argument, and that some of the meanings of the word complex escape you, but I will refer everyone to www.dictionary.com to look up the meaning.  Or a standard debate text to look up another meaning for it.

Again, though you did manage to make one point about my use of the word 'legal' for the most part you are just bantering on, not really making much sense, and  trying to be insulting in kind of an adolescent way.

Eventually I will find this boring....sigh, such a shame.  Usually no one even tries to defend piracy, you are at least giving it your best, to bad your best isn't a little better :-)

[Gaidheal]

UK is in the EU.  If the EU position were that, it would apply in the UK as well.  Incidentally, we have two legal systems in the UK - Scotland has an independent legal system to England and Wales.  Both of them have the concept of "unenforcibility"  wrt contracts and both have ideas of "fair use" and "fitness for purpose".

The last is tangential to this discussion, but has popped up before with software.  "Fair use" is important though.  Precedent in England is pretty much that it is fair enough for you to install an OS on a machine that you own, having purchased only a single copy, so long as it is only in use in one machine at a time.  Noone can write in licence condition that contravene certain rights, especially consumer rights with regard to products purchased "retail".  Good luck trying to tie someone to running an operating system on only a proprietary system when it can be run on others.

[Casper]

@Thomas

We also have laws that give everyone the right to make one personal copy of so-called intellectual property for personal use.

Exactly!!

But I can believe a non-EU country would have a law like that.

Actually i believe sweden has the same law.

I believe most of EU is similar there... I think its mostly only US and UK that dosent allow this.

Actually, the "copy for personal use" is not valid for software in Sweden, only for other types of copyrighted works such as music and movies. There is talk about removing this right for all types of copyrights in the near future though.
You were allowed to make a copy of your software for backup purposes but then you had to store that copy and it could only be used if the original was destroyed but I'm not sure if this is still allowed.

[Gaidheal]

@Marktime:

I assume you meant me by "Gadboy" so..

You are the one who suggested someone was offended, sounds like projection to me.

I don't see anyone discussing piracy in the MorphOS thread yet.  Besides, neither are you discussing it, you are talking crap about EULAs.

I couldn't care less about fanboys of any type.  If you want to flame them, #### off to some pointless flamer site and do it.

Attempting to appear superior as regards debating is not going to impress me.  As someone who actually studied Formal Logic at University as part of my degree I see through your bullshit rather quickly.  I only mention the fact I did study so you and anyone else can see exactly where I am coming from, not as some ego boost.  As for complex, I think you might need to look at the definition before trying to imply I in anyway misused it.

Only you think there was any point made about your use of the word legal, personally, I assumed the bit about the moon was some light humour.  I see now it was a serious point, which is worrying.  As for being adolescent, you need to look in the mirror, mate.  And the sense in my posts is quite apparent, along with the facts and refutations based on them you have forced me to repeat in two separate threads.

As for finding it boring.. we can hope, but trolls and flamers rarely do.. however, I find you boring, thus I shall now ignore your nonsense.  I think it is quite apparent anyway, to anyone else, that it is nonsense.  As for defending piracy?  LOL  Sorry, but the fact you still have not grasped that what you are talking about is not piracy, as well as failing to see that I did not defend piracy anyway, really says it all.