Amiga osX

[MarkTime]

Hey Tomas,

Guess what, all western european countries have  a concept of a license agreement and have laws to protect those licenses.

You believe you purchase a CD, and then you invent the license?  Wrong.

You think the license agreement isn't valid, and so you can change it.  You can unilaterally make it a license to run on AmigaONE.  Interesting, and so you can also upgrade your license to be a server license?  Can you also upgrade your license to change the name of it and re-sell it?  Can you upgrade the license from one user to two?

There is no country in the world where you can modify the license to your liking, simply because you don't like the terms of the license.  You have to have an agreement to use someone elses intellectual property.  If you don't want to make an agreement, then you can back away, and not use Mac OS X.  What you cannot do, is force Apple to accept your terms without any discussion or any agreement.  

If you think your country is like that, then you must believe your country has virtually no intellectual property laws at all.

You are wrong.  There is no country in the world that says by purchasing CD media you are then allowed to write your own terms on the software license.  If you think I'm wrong, just post a link to the laws you are citing.

In all european countries, Apple has the ability to enter into contracts and make software licenses.

[MarkTime]

oh yes, I forgot the standard verbage.

If Tomas believes that its OK to re-write the license on Mac OS X in his country, then I assume he will also support the copying of Amiga OS 4 within his country, for use on alternate platforms like pegasos.

Even though Genesi doesn't pay the Amiga license, just as Eyetech doesn't pay apple any license, and both companies, Apple and Eyetech expect to make part of their money from hardware sales....

In other words, that $100 isn't what apple needs to make on OS X, neither is the purchase price of OS 4, what Amiga expects to make...they rely on hardware sales too.  Hardware sales, that under this logic, we are all free to circumvent.

according to Tomas, this mechanism is foolish, since the end user can do an end run around on such agreements, if they simply purchase cd-media.

buy an Amiga ONE and just copy Mac OS X?

Hmmm, if you reasoning is so good, why doesn't someone just buy the cheapest board (pegasos) and copy both Amiga OS 4 and Mac OS X?

or maybe that is what you plan on doing.  Anyway, its still wrong.

[mepmepmep]

Well, I'm not in any way promoting piracy. Atleast not now and on the Amiga. But 10 years ago it helped build the Amiga community. At least I know I could hardly afford buying the hardware then, let alone software too... None that I know of did either. Did you?
These days it's a bit of a different story. Piracy on the Amiga today is outright stupid..
So, It's all about circumstances.. Or am I wrong?

[Unit21]

This is the way it works in Norway at least:

Anyone who has bought a product with a license-agreement has to be shown this agreement before the payment is made.
If this is not the case, the license-agreement is not regarded as valid and can be cancelled. Thats the way it is...
We also have laws that give everyone the right to make one personal copy of so-called intellectual property for personal use.
This means that you can copy a CD to use in your car, or indeed run OSX on non-Apple hardware.

I would guess that the same goes for Sweden, but then you guys are part of the EU. We're not, but thats a whole other story....

 :-D  :-D

[mepmepmep]

Well, a whole lot of strange things happens when u join that union.. Cant really keep track of it all anymore..

[KThunder]

The reason Apple won't press anyone in the courts is because of the fact that in the US and most countries fair use laws prevent software publishers (OS Publishers as well) from stipulating wich hardware you use the product on. This is why emulation of amigaos on pcs and windows on macs etc. is legal. Most eulas have a disclamer usually toward the end, to the effect that state and federal laws may preempt or excempt certailn provisions of the eula .

[MarkTime]

@Unit21

Your response has the air of legitimacy about it.  Unfortunately most countries do not have such a law...but it is a very good law...that a person could back out of a contract that was not clearly explained to them.  They could cancel the contract, get their money back.  Etc....it doesn't give them the ability to write into the contract new terms, though.  They can't give themselves a license for an AmigaONE, for example.

Now, a backup copy for personal use.  Very few countries have a law like that.  But I can believe a non-EU country would have a law like that.  Unfortunately, trade agreements are very complex, and the U.S. (among others) have been pressuring everyone to adopt IP laws as part of trading agreements....(not uncommon, just as mexico forced many concession from the U.S. to get the NAFTA agreement signed)....

so you find most countries are not really unique in the IP law area....but I kind of like your countries laws...but for those of us who don't live there, and most of the pirates on this board don't live in such a country...for us its illegal.

For you, its only immoral, not illegal.  You still clicked on a box and said 'I agree'...but you don't agree.  Honesty....its hardly ever heard, but its mostly what I need....from youuuuuuu<-singing a stupid Billy Joel song.

I'm kidding, in your country I'd buy the pegasos and copy the Amiga OS 4 and Mac OS X, and build myself a triple boot system....but I don't live there...so sad.

I wonder if Hyperion will weigh in on this and give every permission to make those backup copies of Amiga OS 4 to put on their pegasos.

That would put the whole issue to rest, at least for Amiga OS 4....of course, I don't expect to hear from apple.

[mepmepmep]

Well I think there is such a law in Sweden too.. Atleast there was before EU.. I dunno.. Copy for personal use not for spreading.. As you may record a CD or LP on tape or copy your own videocassetes and such.. But not for spreading.. Those cases are probably handled by Apple/Microsoft Sweden/Norway respectively in some manner..

[Philespin]

Bulsh..., if you bought genuine software.  That's simple, you are'nt a pirate EVEN if apple doesn't agree with that.  Maybe we don't see EULA in the same manner.  I'm not agreeing with apple or any  othesr companies on these type of licenses.  Paid something and BE forced to buy the same branded product, thats for me is simple: a forced selling (or a deny of free choice).  

Maybe if you bought a new car and by your contract must use a particular branded fuel cause it's writed (same as EULA) ...  Er you wouldn't agree if same fuel exist on the same manner but cheap.  Is that how i see clause in  EULA sometimes.  Piracy is when you don't bought software or you stole code for doing what you want with it.


Er and i'm not so good with english as you can read.

Philespin

by the way don't tell me if you aren't agree don't buy... It's by the fault of consummer who never read EULA that's these thing can exist.  i will not extend on that

[Gaidheal]

@Marktime:

You are mostly talking out of your arse and making a complete tosser of yourself, on this one.  You are not even stating the actual position within the USA, which is in some ways tighter (or has been in the past, more accurately) than many other locations.  As for countries where you do indeed purchase the CD with the software on it, to use as you see fit?  Yep.  India was like that, might still pretty much amount to it.  Until recently, it was even better - having no software copyright laws at all and no will to enforce them.  This was why at one point 90% of their PCs ran Windows95, but noone had ever bought a legal licence for it (MS refused to sell on the grounds that their product was not protected!  LOL).  Things have changed there, but other nations are very much like that.  Turkey, for example, I think has some 'odd' (to the USA at least) laws regarding this issue.  It actually goes much deeper and is a cultural thing for you.

As regards the law.. well, in the UK the idea that you can restrict the use of the software, designed as an operating system, to one proprietary hardware design, would almost certainly be considered what is called an "unenforcable contract".  As I understand it, under English law, the rest of the contract would apply (especially with the disclaimer at the bottom saying to ignore clauses that local laws don't allow to be enforced).  Also, I am pretty sure the current English precedent (I honestly don't recall the Scottish position, and yes we have different laws) is that you can make copies of your media for the purpose of protecting your investment.  You can also demand replacement media for a nominal fee (to cover fabrication and delivery) if your media become damaged.

Oh, I almost forgot!  No, it's not covered under the definition of "software piracy" either.  Which actually is a layman term.  Only "theft" applies as regards the law, from what I recall.  Under English (and Scots) law, you have to deprive someone of legitimate use of something or else legitimate revenue (applies in this case).  If you paid for a copy of the software, you have not stolen at all.   So you can hack it all you like.  Distributing it is NOT permitted though, for a whole host of reasons.  Tools that enable you to crack/hack it for your own legitimate use (i.e. you did purchase a copy) are fine however :¬)

Incidentally, your position would outlaw emulation.  That point was settled, even in the USA, long ago.

edit:  punctuation altered for greater clarity and reading ease.

[MarkTime]

Wow are you wrong, and totally misrepresenting the laws in the UK.

The UK also has End  User License Agreements on their software packages, very very similar to the USA.

And they state things like "This is a license, not a product"

Making  sure you understand you are buying a limited use license, and the CD is simply media that contains the bits and bites.

I don't expect software pirates to deal in the plain truth.

My position doesn't outlaw emulation at all.  I don't even outlaw running Mac OS X on an AmigaONE.  My position makes it perfectly acceptable for Apple to agree to such a thing...only apple didn't, so its illegal.

Emulation is perfectly acceptable as well, as long as in doing the emulation you didn't steal someone's IP.  Which btw, many emulators are illegal for that reason.

And that was settled long ago.  If you don't believe me, try releasing UAE with Kickstart ROM's included.  You can't, and Amiga, Inc. will shut you down.

Fact is, you can do UAE without violating Amiga's IP...thats legal, and great.  But you want the IP, you pay Cloanto, cause thats the ONLY legal version and you well know it.

The same is true of MOL...its perfectly legal to install MOL, and I never said otherwise, but it won't run Mac OS X without Mac OS X......

Again, though, you aren't even trying to be honest here.

[MarkTime]

@philespin

hey I'm not going to argue with your feelings about things...I'm just talking law, you can feel the law is wrong, (and I agree a lot of laws are wrong).

But, just be clear, you can do all with Amiga OS 4, that you are saying you can do with Mac OS X, right?

One person already said as much, and I respect that position more, even if I don't agree with it.

[mepmepmep]

I even seem to recall that a few of the Amiga games I bougth actually recommended that you made copies of the game disks and store them safely. Not those games with heavy copy protection though;)

[Gaidheal]

@Marktime:

No, I am not totally wrong at all!  LOL

Yup, everywhere has EULA.  In many places it means nothing, in far more parts of it simply do not apply.

Never said it was a "product"  though actually, a licence to use software is itself a product.  Yup, the CD is exactly that.  Which is why it is legal to copy it at will.  Odd then that many try and prevent it...

Neither do *I* expect software pirates to deal in truth.. but then I see none here, nor do I expect most people to deal in it.  Many are ignorant, others simply lie :¬)

Actually, what you advocated would indeed outlaw it.  Parts of US law do as well.  In the EU for example, reverse engineering is perfectly legal if the intention is not to pirate the product but to allow other products to work with it and you do not distribute the knowledge you gain, in itself.

Emulation never steals anyone else's property.  Also you can't own knowledge anyway :¬)  Which would be why there is a petition here to make sure the EU starts properly applying its own laws and doesn't adopt half arsed US ones.

Mac-on-Linux runs OS X on a Linux supporting hardware platform, potentially regardless of what that platform is.  They note success on plenty of non-Apple machines :¬)

Sorry, but trying to call me a liar won't wash.  By the way, is there a good reason for you starting another thread?  Or was it just so you could pontificate your crap on two separate posts?

edit:  I apologize, it was not you who started the other.  I still think you are making a tit of yourself.

[MarkTime]

Some of you are getting very confused about making copies and backups of things with breaking a license agreement.

You are not placing Mac OS X on your AmigaONE as a backup copy.

That's just a lame excuse aimed at making this legal through a loophole in just a few countries in the world.

BUt honestly, you didn't buy it as a backup copy, or using it under a personal use exemption if you don't even own a Mac...(those that own real Mac's could do a personal use exemption in those few countries)

But lets discuss things HONESTLY.  HONESTLY, you want to run Mac OS X on your AmigaONE and ignore the licensing agreement.

Is breaking a licensing agreement piracy?  Of course it is, piracy is a laymens term, but that is what the term means.

Piracy is not going into a store and stealing CD's...that is just shoplifting...piracy is breaking the licensing agreement.

I'm not against fair use, not against emulators, not against backup copies.  I'm against piracy and piracy alone.

And when someone makes some software, they have the right to decide if they will sell it to you or not, you cannot demand of them that they license it to you under your terms.  Hogwash.  Not in the UK, thats for sure.

Sure in some countries like India you might find your exception, but you don't live in India so give me a break.

Also on the moon where there is no official government, this sort of thing is completely legal, but just try getting your broadband connection on the moon, I dare ya.

[lempkee]

if mol is piracy , the winuae and such is also piracy , so REMOVE YOUR install of uae now mark!

i hope everyone will understand the seriousness of this , finally all uae users can go stuff their head in a bucket

along with all mol users , maybe they can start a bucket club for locked out people...cool...


sorry...but i found this thread very....MARK(ED) , but if its correct then i agree with mark, but that must also go for all other emu's (and such) aswell..

Xwin is ilegal also then=? ...hmmm ok we live in a dangerous world...glad i have my amiga classic here