Why do I have to buy PoseidonUSB v2.x for Spider II from ELBOX?

[LP]

I'm pretty upset about ELBOX...

They have hardly noticed their customers about the usage of the PoseidonUSB software and from what I understand, Spider II from ELBOX does not work without this piece of software? I'm angry if this is true because it's going to cost me extra money (19,95 EUR) for me to use the spider usb card... I do not hope this is true... My (hopefully) twisted ideas came to me after I read the Review from SWAUG They proclaim that I HAVE to install the PoseidonUSB software before I can use the Spider II, is this true?
From the Poseidon homepage it says that ELBOX has been -=Not so nice=- to the author of the program... I do not want to get mixed up in their fight, just because I want to support the Amiga...

Can someone help me?

Background:
Review from SWAUG,
The Poseidon Homepage,
The News article from ELBOX about Spider II
Please see under:

Package contents
· CD with Mediator and Amithlon EHCI (USB 2.0) drivers for Poseidon

In the article...

I'm fustrated about this...

HEEELP! :-?

[Targhan]

LP:

Unfortunately, this is the case.  I don't have the details of their disagreement; although, I'm sure that someone will likely bring that topic up...  The bottom line is that you will have to register Poseidon seperately from your Spider-II.

On the plus side, neither Elbox or Posiedon's author take their grudge out on the customer.  They are both very helpful, even if they do not agree with one another.

[platon42]

I'm also upset about Elbox, but people know this already.
 
The thing is, they don't state anywhere on their website or press releases that the Spider (2) does not include a licence for Poseidon. They hardly even say that it uses Poseidon. When you ask them about that, they just say that it didn't /fit/ in the press release for space reasons (?).  
For me, this is a clear attempt to cause misinformation to the end user (who is then angry about it and its his good right to be so). Elbox gives the impression that the Spider is cheaper than other solutions, as the users don't see they have to spend some extra money for the registration. Quite a lot of money for buying the cheap PC cards and just sticking a new label on it.
 
Don't ask me how many support emails I received by people not knowing that an unregistered copy will stop working after a short time.
 
I am pissed about Elbox, and that won't change for a long time. However, Poseidon users are equally welcome.

[cockney_dave]

You do have to pay the registration fee for Poseidon seperately, but Elbox do make this pretty clear. I have a Spider I and highly recommend it, it's most excellent, it's a neat and clean USB solution, and if I remember rightly the price of a Spider + Poseidon isn't much different to a Subway USB card anyway. Plus Poseidon dead easy to register.

Get USB in your Amiga, you won't regret it!

P.S. I don't work for Elbox   ;-)

[LP]

I've just sent ELBOX -support team a mail regarding this... I'll wait and see what they have to say...

@platon42
So... I can see I've got no other choice than buying your software (If i like the card)... But I must say that I totally disagree with the sitiuation as it is now, between you and ELBOX...
Though I understand you if you feel -pi**ed on- by ELBOX from what you have explained.
I'm NOT blaming you, and I'm NOT blaming ELBOX, because I don't know wich of your stories is true :-?

@every one :-)

I'm just saying that the sitiuation between you is one of the most bizzarre, I've ever experienced... Leaving the customer between you more or less confused...
And I do know that it's not going to change in the near future, so I really do hope it's true both sides have some good custommers-services to make the damage good again, so to speak...

Ehm.. Can't see if I've forgotten to include more bitchin' so I'll end here for now...

(@platon42: I can see this problem takes, alot of your sparetime, sorry to rob more of your time)

[tjaoz]

@platon42

I'm also upset about Elbox, but people know this already.

And I'm upset about you. And it won't change until you give me back what I have paid you for.

The thing is, they don't state anywhere on their website or press releases that the Spider (2) does not include a licence for Poseidon.

Here is what is written on USB drivers in Elbox website:

'Elbox Computer is pleased to announce that its drivers to PCI USB cards in the Mediator busboard operate under the Poseidon USB stack. These drivers have been prepared by Elbox programmers as a result of co-operation started a few weeks ago by Chris Hodges, author of the Poseidon stack. As the Poseidon stack is already supported by authors of third-party commercial software, we have decided that releasing another, our own, USB stack for Amiga under such circumstances would mean doubling effort of Amiga programmers. We are sure that high-quality software included in the Poseidon stack package and our hardware-optimised drivers resulting in high performance achieved by PCI USB cards in Mediator will satisfy even the most demanding users. The unregistered, time-limited version of the Poseidon USB stack will be available in the Mediator Multimedia CD. Registration of the Poseidon stack for Mediator users will be provided by Chris Hodges. '

Would you rather them write something like this below?

We cannot supply the Poseidon stack software. It is on Aminet. Chris Hodges has no licence agreement with us.  He 'only' wrote the stack to give users the opportunity to use USB devices. He did not pay us.  He accused us of no care about users of our  products. He never apologizes. He could produce good software, but in our opinion, he has no ethics at all. Users who want to use Poseidon without demo restrictions have to register.

They hardly even say that it uses Poseidon.

What do you think the following sentence means in the Spider page?
• Amiga support works under the Poseidon stack

They hardly even say that it uses Poseidon. When you ask them about that, they just say that it didn't /fit/ in the press release for space reasons (?).

Did you ask them? I bet you did not.

For me, this is a clear attempt to cause misinformation to the end user (who is then angry about it and its his good right to be so).

This is typical for you to speak about Elbox.
First you give a bunch of untrue information about them, and then you jump to conclusions that they are not right.

Elbox gives the impression that the Spider is cheaper than other solutions

And this is true. You probably have seen my summary:

USB 2.0 controller:
Spider II (5 ports) + Drivers + Poseidon ~= $70

USB 1.1 controllers:
Pegasos on-board USB controller (4 ports) + Driver + Poseidon ~= $
Algor (3 ports) + Driver +Poseidon ~= $115
Highway (4 ports) + Driver + Poseidon ~= $100
Subway (4 ports) + Driver + Poseidon ~= $85
Thylacine (1 port) + Drivers + Poseidon ~= $75 (or $95, I'm not sure if Poseidon is included)

as the users don't see they have to spend some extra money for the registration.

Untrue, they inform clearly about it.

Quite a lot of money for buying the cheap PC cards and just sticking a new label on it.

You've got a problem because the card by Elbox, based on the best USB 2.0 chipset in the world, is so cheap?

You should rather write that 'quite a lot money' applies to USB 1.1 controllers, which are produced for Zorro2. Especially when you take into account how their parameters are worse than those of modern USB 2.0 cards.

Of course I appreciate that their producer must have been able to read the Zorro2 specification, to plot the board, to program a simple PLD chip and to connect it with a dollar-cheap 8-bit USB controller taken from Atmel or with such chip from Transdimension.

When I can buy for my Amiga something much better and cheaper, why should I buy a worse device and pay more for it?

Don't ask me how many support emails I received by people not knowing that an unregistered copy will stop working after a short time.

Maybe because you do not write it clearly enough in the guide to your program?

I am pissed about Elbox, and that won't change for a long time. However, Poseidon users are equally welcome.

I have the impression that the main reason of  your word crusade against Elbox is aimed at helping in sales of overpriced Zorro2 cards made by your friend. Maybe you should think about users too?

[WarPiper]

@ LP

isnt it nice that the Amiga is the only platform around where when you try to just buy your hardware to update your computer and get on with your life, you find yourself stuck in the middle of a corporate bitch fit?

thats their way of saying " THANKS FOR SUPPORTING WHAT WE DO"

Man if I was you, I would just say the hell with all the ancient hardware and the corporate mess that comes with upgrading a dead platform, never mind the expense, thats a whole other complaint that if I said anything about, people on amiga.org would get all pissy faced about.

[catohagen]

just wondering, how many KB's in easter egg
images do you have in your software ?

stupid idea, but just my opinion.

[WarPiper]

@ Catohagen

what?

[mboehmer_e3b]

Dear Tjaoz (aka Rat),

once again, I have to tell you that you claim things which are not correct.
And I can prove this, by just taking the Elbox website (price list), a simple
list of exchange rates (EUR and US$, you know), and a calculator.

> And this is true. You probably have seen my summary:
>
> USB 2.0 controller:
> Spider II (5 ports) + Drivers + Poseidon ~= $70
>
> USB 1.1 controllers:
> Algor (3 ports) + Driver +Poseidon ~= $115
> Highway (4 ports) + Driver + Poseidon ~= $100
> Subway (4 ports) + Driver + Poseidon ~= $85

Please note (once again, like in another
thread where you used this wrong list),
learn about the difference in "VAT incl." and "VAT excl.". And, that (USD != EUR).
So, if you do comparisons, do them fair. Optionally, use your brain.
You took into account in your last comparison that things which have to be bought
additionally should be taken into account.

So, the list corrected by your "simplifications", should say:

Algor (3 ports) + Driver + Poseidon + 512kB FlashROM ~= 115EUR
Spider II (5 ports) + Drivers + Poseidon + PCI slot + 0kB FlashROM ~= 130EUR

Could you explain this to me ?
You "forgot" to answer to my corrections, for whatever reasons.
Maybe for lack of arguments, or maybe you still are looking for someone being able
of algebra.

Anyhow, I have another question... I might cite you:

> Of course I appreciate that their producer must have been able to read the Zorro2
> specification, to plot the board, to program a simple PLD chip and to connect it
> with a dollar-cheap 8-bit USB controller taken from Atmel or with such chip from
> Transdimension.

Well, my dearest friend, you seem to be quite experienced with hardware design.
Your description is right, as far as the basic principle is concerned.
But the devil likes the details, anyhow.
Your claim (hey, how do you get on Atmel ? Seems that you have problems with
both reading and algebra) shows me that you never ever did anything with hardware
on your own.
I may advise you: talk about things you know.

As things are so easy... how many Zorro cards did you design by yourself up to now ?
How many "simple CPLDs" have you rolled on your own ?
Erm, please talk louder, I can't hear you... what ? Louder...

> I have the impression that the main reason of your word crusade against Elbox
> is aimed at helping in sales of overpriced Zorro2 cards made by your friend.

Hey, that must be the reason that this damned overpriced HIGHWAY card is sold out.
Maybe this is also the reason why most customers are quite happy with this card.
Any maybe that's why there's demand for a successor card.
Or for some people dropping Spider cards in favour of the upcoming ALGOR.
Thanks for this hint.

Oh, by the way, I always enjoy reading some bullshit originating from you.
It's so ridiculous and makes me laugh while reading some Zorro II specs or
programming a simple CPLD. Maybe I should engage you as jester... in case your PR job
here does not pay well.

Michael

[tjaoz]

Hello Michael,

That's regular now... when I say something directly to Chris Hodges about his improper behaviour YOU are responding.
This only confirms YOUR main role in his negative attitude to Elbox.
Do you really think the amiga community needs the conflict which you so intensely are trying to cause?

Please note (once again, like in another thread where you used this wrong list),
learn about the difference in "VAT incl." and "VAT excl.". And, that (USD != EUR).
So, if you do comparisons, do them fair.

YOUR calculations are not reliable. See details in the thread you quote.

Well, my dearest friend, you seem to be quite experienced with hardware design.
Your description is right, as far as the basic principle is concerned.
But the devil likes the details, anyhow.
Your claim (hey, how do you get on Atmel ? Seems that you have problems with
both reading and algebra) shows me that you never ever did anything with hardware
on your own.

What made you so angry when I wrote about Atmel?
Maybe it is because they publicly inform about price for their AT43USB35x 8-bit embedded USB controllers. These prices start from $1.25.

Hey, that must be the reason that this damned overpriced HIGHWAY card is sold out.

I don't know why you have run out of these cards and I really do not care about it.
I have the Spider USB 2.0 card and I know well how far better it is when compared with these Algor, Highway or Subway USB 1.1 cards.

Optionally, use your brain.
...
Oh, by the way, I always enjoy reading some bullshit originating from you.

I have noticed that whenever you have no arguments, you offend the other person. This is to prove your personal culture, for sure.

@every one

Cui prodest scelus, is fecit. (For non-Latin readers: The one who derives adavantage from the crime is the one most likely to have commited it).

Michael Boehmer, producer of the Algor, Highway and Subway controllers, is the main party who benefits from the public bad atmosphere between Chris Hodges and Elbox.
 

[MarkTime]

Quit the Elbox bashing now.

No, they aren't perfect.

Like all Amiga companies, I'm sure they are egomaniacs...we get this type of fighting all the time.

I don't care, though...the PCI Busboard from Elbox and many of their other products are top of the line in this market, and the best priced too.  It's still expensive...but its the best.

Gosh, remember when we had to add a crappy Zorro II just get some kind of decent video on the A1200...and that was even very decent, and super expensive.

This is a good company.

[platon42]

There's one main reason, why I don't listen to what a Rat says: It stinks. I wonder, why in fables, liars are often represented as rats. Stay in your dream world, where Elbox rules the world. Ignorance is bliss. Don't try to waste my time.

[AmiGR]

I guess you hate Hyperion, the CGX team, the P96 team
and generally, all people that had problems with Elbox
in the past... My friend... YOU SUCK!

Your Highway (I'm not even a fan of it, just mentioning
some facts) price busting is more than wrong...
Do you think that the Spider price = it's parts price
plus some added cost to get some money?
It doesn't work this way...
When you buy a product, you pay:
R&D, parts, production (which is expensive in small numbers),
support, software than comes with it, packaging and the
added cost to have some income...
I did some research about portable DVD players in the past,
do you know how much the parts and production alone cost?
Less than half the end user price...
The Highway needed R&D that was *NOT* needed for Elbox's
solution (which HW engineer DOESN'T know how to make a PCI
card based on a well known and documented PCI USB chipset?)

Now, make your calculations again and see that the price
difference between the boards is VERY minimal.

BTW, leave the Pegasos OUT of your price lists, nobody bought
the Pegasos to get a USB solution.

[Ponos2D]

LOVE & PEACE!!! :-D :-D :-D

I don't hate you Chris Hodges! I don't hate Elbox! We are all friends here, but all of you just
didn't realized that! :-D

LOVE & PEACE!!! :-D :-D :-D