potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP

[ottomobiehl]

mdma wrote:

Nope, they use Windows on a PPC NT kernel.

Figures, I thought they had given up on the non-x86 NT kernal development.

coldfish wrote:

Irony? Or is IBM multicore PPC tech just fast, versatile and cheap?

Good point.  :-)

Anyone remember when Atari LYNX games were developed using Amigas?

Wow!  You know, I hadn't realised that.  If the Amiga had been properly marketed with stuff like this it wouldn't have died off so quickly.  Go figure.

By the way coldfish, I love your avatar.  Father Ted, in my opinion, is a brilliant show.  To bad Dermot Morgan had to pass away.

[Louis Dias]

coldfish wrote:

It makes me wonder how much clout Bungee, (being M$'s golden child) have over the Xbox2/360 development devision? (considering they originally come from an Apple background)...

Irony?  Or is IBM multicore PPC tech just fast, versatile and cheap?

Anyone remember when Atari LYNX games were developed using Amigas?

I just like games, regardless of the hardware.

I also heard they had officially given up PPC NT support.  I wouldn't be surprised if the were just using Metrowerks' Code Warrior (just like PS2 and Gamecube) on the MAC and opengl in order to get more cross-platform games that would come out on the PS2/3 first...

Weren't SEGA Genesis/Masterdrive games rumored to be developed on the Amiga?

[adolescent]

lou_dias wrote:

I also heard they had officially given up PPC NT support.  I wouldn't be surprised if the were just using Metrowerks' Code Warrior (just like PS2 and Gamecube) on the MAC and opengl in order to get more cross-platform games that would come out on the PS2/3 first...

I doubt it.  All signs point to a Microsoft supplied development tool.  This might change, but Metrowerks didn't have a development tool for the first Xbox either.  Also, I've seen several accounts of the Mac G5's being temporary until real development boxes are available.  (We'll see what the games are running on at this year's E3 I guess).

Also, developing PS3 games on a Mac wouldn't be that useful because the differences in architecture.  It's likely Sony will produce something like the old PSTool with Linux running on a cell processor.  Of course, the CodeWarrior option would be eventually available for cross-compiling but it will likely be PC based also.

[adolescent]

ottomobiehl wrote:

Too bad it was released the same week as HALO 2...

I can say with great pride that I have never played HALO 2.  For that matter, I've never played the original HALO.  I would never buy an Xbox.  I don't know how Microsoft spent all of that R&D money to come up with basically an underpowered PC.

It's a shame that you haven't played 2 of the best 1st person shooters of all time.  

The Xbox hardware is perfectly suitable for games.  It's just as powerful as the other consoles of it's generation.  For reference, the GCN's Gekko is roughly the equivilent power of a P3-700MHz.  So, you could say "I don't know how Nintendo spent all of that R&D money to come up with basically an underpowered Mac.".  I would add that Nintendo spends just as much money yet lost their #2 slot for home consoles to Microsoft.  If anything, the PS2 is more dated and less powerful, but still is #1 and has the best game catalog.

[coldfish]

I like my Xbox, its given me many good hours of gaming fun, I also like my PC, MAMEbox, Gamecube, Dreamcast, GBAsp et al for the same reason.

AND, I liked my Amigas too, back when they provided my main source of computer entertainment.  I'm happy they've gone on to someone who can enjoy them afresh, rather than getting lost in storage.

ottomobiehl:

By the way coldfish, I love your avatar. Father Ted, in my opinion, is a brilliant show. To bad Dermot Morgan had to pass away.

Thanks, you've got to love Father Jack, he's a nasty, grimey old bast'!
It was weird when Dermot died, I hope God forgave all the Catholic jokes...

[ottomobiehl]

@adolescent

It's a shame that you haven't played 2 of the best 1st person shooters of all time.

As Maurice Chavez on Vice City Public Radio says, "It's all a matter of perception."  ;-)

I have no doubt that they are probably fun games and I would most likely be hooked if I played them but to me the best FPS game that I've played is the old LucasArts game Outlaws.  I still love that game.  The other FPS games I've been playing lately are Battlefield 1942 and the Medal of Honor series.  I usually don't play FPS on consoles as the controllers usually drive me mad.  I prefer the ol' keyboard and mouse approach.

edit: Ahhhh, now I've gone and seen that they have Halo for the PC and Mac.  I guess I'm going to have to try them now.  Shucks.

The Xbox hardware is perfectly suitable for games. It's just as powerful as the other consoles of it's generation. For reference, the GCN's Gekko is roughly the equivilent power of a P3-700MHz. So, you could say "I don't know how Nintendo spent all of that R&D money to come up with basically an underpowered Mac.". I would add that Nintendo spends just as much money yet lost their #2 slot for home consoles to Microsoft. If anything, the PS2 is more dated and less powerful, but still is #1 and has the best game catalog.

You have some very good points and I won't deny you that.  My R&D comment was probably not very fair.  The only game that has come out on the Xbox that I've really been interested in is Fable so one game is not enough to make me plunk down some hard earned cash on a console.  I also have some issues with Microsoft's business practices but you could also say the same of Sony or Nintendo so I won't go into that either.  I do, however, have some loyalty to Nintendo and Sony due to some of the franchises that they have and maybe the Xbox will move ahead in the respect.

The truth be told, when I heard that the Xbox2 was going to be PowerPC based it Piqued my interest so who knows what the future may hold.

@Coldfish

Thanks, you've got to love Father Jack, he's a nasty, grimey old bast'!

"Drink, Fek, Girls!"  :lol: or Dougal, "Ted! I don't want to drive the milk float no more!"

It was weird when Dermot died, I hope God forgave all the Catholic jokes...

No kidding.  I wonder what purgatory is like this time of year?  :-D

[spirantho]

This thread is priceless...  :lol:  :lol:

We need people like lou to put forward ideas like this, because let's face it something's only impossible until it's done. And AmigaOS 4 _is_ possible on the Gamecube.

It's also completely pointless.

The GC has what an OS needs - CPU, RAM, display, keyboard and a disk drive.

It however lacks:
Fast expansion bus (no, 81MB/S is not fast - not when it's your only bus - and that's probably theoretical max anyway)
Read/Write storage medium (SD cards are too slow and small by far to be practical)
A decent amount of RAM - 32MB isn't enough for a modern OS. Not even AmigaOS 4 is comfortable in 32MB, by the time you've added the disk caches etc..
It could work but it'd be so slow as to not be worthwhile. The CPU speed is only a limiting factor, remember. The CPU speed is irrelevant if its being held up by something else.

The biggest problem though is the lack of documentation.  If you want to know how the Flipper chip works then you'll probably have to go and raid ATI or something - I can't imagine they'd give you that info free (though I could be wrong I suppose).  You'd also need documentation on the workings of the sound chip, memory card, disk drive etc. etc. which Nintendo definitely wouldn't give out.  And to say that that info is in the SDK only shows that you've never seen an SDK. The SDK gives you functions like "ResetZBuffer()" or something, it doesn't tell you how it's done. It's way way way too little to actually write drivers from.

And incidentally, the PS2 is very like the Amiga, except more so... it's a hideous tangle of chips and busses and timing and interrupts and vectors and ... . Any other PS2 programmer knows what I mean.

Also - that quote about the internet running on 10Mbit/S... er... I have nothing to say on that.

So nice idea, but really unfeasible. The GC is a games machine, it's specialised hardware, and not at all suited to running AmigaOS 4.

That's my 2 cents - here endeth the lesson.

[Zorro]

spirantho wrote:

And incidentally, the PS2 is very like the Amiga

Well, if AmigaOS 4 will land on a PS2, I, for one, will be however a loooot happy !  :-D

[ottomobiehl]

Zorro wrote:

spirantho wrote:

And incidentally, the PS2 is very like the Amiga

Well, if AmigaOS 4 will land on a PS2, I, for one, will be however a loooot happy !  :-D

Do they still make the linux kit for the PS2?  I bet you could run/develop AROS on top of it.  Would be a neat little project.

[Louis Dias]

A quick note about Nintendo:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7848

Also, Nintendo only lost the #2 spot this Christmas shopping season due to the spurred sales of people wanting to play HALO 2.  Up until then, Nintendo has been #2 worldwide the whole time despite what Microsoft will tell you.  Also, for the fiscal year ending March 31 in 2004, Nintendo was and still is the second largest producer of video games on the planet...second only to Electronic Arts.

You can also look here: http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=4645
for some Japanese year (as of March 27, 2005) to date hardware sales.

I don't doubt that Microsoft has given developers a "Visual Studio" package that compiles Mac applications.  Don't they own 20% of Apple anyway?  The point of using the Mac specific version is that it's a G5 and that's about the performance they can expect from the X360.  So I don't believe they are running WinXP on the Mac at all.  Microsoft does sell MS Office to the Mac platform.  It was part of the investment deal back in '97 I think.

Microsoft has given developers something fast and now and even alot of Japanese developers who have shunned the original XBOX are taking notice.  They are hoping to be first to market with the 'next-gen' consoles hoping to grab market share like they feel Sony did with the PS2.  What I feel (yes my own opinion) is that they didn't look far enough back in history..ie...Dreamcast.  SEGA was first to market and their technology was perceived as inferior to what was coming next (even though it was right on par with the PS2).  Rumor has it that X360 is sticking with the 4.7GB DVD format and will not include a harddrive (although one can be added on, developers are being encouraged not to count on it or make it mandatory).  So the PS3 with have a media advantage and power advantage since Sony is using Blue-Ray and Cell.  

The dark horse is Nintendo.  What I've read so far is that once again an existing chip (G5) is being enhanced per Nintendo specs (just like the G3 was) and it will include a 15GB hard drive.  Not to mention no-fee online play features and built-in Wi-Fi capabilities.  This CPU is called 'Broadway'.

It will also act as a hub for the Nintendo DS handheld to allow it to go online for free as well.

So I see Nintendo in the middle again on the 'power' levels but will offer free online play and a new unique user interface.  It will be backwards compatible with GC software and controllers as well.  It seems like Nintendo learns from it's mistakes and competitors quickly.

Also, since ATI got shafted by Microsoft this generation, I don't see them delivering a better chipset to Microsoft over Nintendo.  Again, Nintendo is getting a customized version...  This GPU is called 'Hollywood'.

Broadway and Hollywood, the center of stage and film.

There are too many +'s to own Revolution over the other sytems.  The only real reason to own some other system for the next-gen is to play some exclusive titles.  As far as first party games, Nintendo has them all beat hands down.

[ottomobiehl]

There are too many +'s to own Revolution over the other sytems. The only real reason to own some other system for the next-gen is to play some exclusive titles. As far as first party games, Nintendo has them all beat hands down.

I will be getting one as I have stated earlier, like the Zelda and Mario games ... oh yea, Metroid too.
 :-)

[Waccoon]

lou_dias:  I also heard they had officially given up PPC NT support.

That was a long time ago.  Now that more and more devices are using PPC, Microsoft has Windows running on PPC again.  They just haven't released it, of course.

spirantho:  And AmigaOS 4 _is_ possible on the Gamecube.

It's also completely pointless.

Anything is possible if you don't intend to port it 100%.

Then again, OS4 hasn't been released, so there really isn't a 100% reference point, yet.  Who knows what evils still lurk in there.  :-)

ottomobiehl:  Do they still make the linux kit for the PS2?

It's been officially discontinued for a while.

lou_dias:  The point of using the Mac specific version is that it's a G5 and that's about the performance they can expect from the X360. So I don't believe they are running WinXP on the Mac at all.

Well, I suppose you could always just ask.

Question:  if the consoles are so powerful, why are console development systems always conventional PCs and workstations?

SEGA was first to market and their technology was perceived as inferior to what was coming next (even though it was right on par with the PS2).

SEGA just didn't drive enough hype for the platform.  SEGA's dev kit was one of the best in the industry and the hardware itself was very clean.  Early PS2 titles looked like crap next to Dreamcast titles, and even newer titles still suffer from shakey textures and other artifacts.  I was very disappointed how easily the magazines wrote-off Dreamcast.

The fact that Sonic Adventure was the buggiest damn game I've ever seen on a console didn't help Dreamcast, either.  I mean, Sonic regularly fell through floors.  Oops.

It seems like Nintendo learns from it's mistakes and competitors quickly.

N64 struggled a lot and Gamecube didn't really improve on that.  Nintendo had better have a very convincing lineup when the system is officially unveiled, or it will get burried under the unsurmountable hype machine that prevented people from buying Dreamcast.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the Amiga.

[coldfish]

by lou_dias:  

What I feel (yes my own opinion) is that they didn't look far enough back in history..ie...Dreamcast. SEGA was first to market and their technology was perceived as inferior to what was coming next (even though it was right on par with the PS2). Rumor has it that X360 is sticking with the 4.7GB DVD format and will not include a harddrive (although one can be added on, developers are being encouraged not to count on it or make it mandatory). So the PS3 with have a media advantage and power advantage since Sony is using Blue-Ray and Cell.

I dont think M$ are presently in the same position Sega were in when they released the Dreamcast.  
Sega werent playing from a position of strength, how long had Saturn been out of production, years wasnt it?  How was their reputation going after the failure of Sega-CD, 32X and Saturn?  
Xbox2/360 will release right on the back of the increasingly popular Xbox platform.

Also, Sega lacked the financial backup to recover from poor DC sales and perhaps revive it with a massive marketing push.  
M$'s Xbox didnt have the best start either, but after that initial (large) price reduction and strong marketing, they have managed to grow marketshare and more importantly, mindshare in preperation for Xbox-360's release.  

Among developers, there's a lot less negativity and confusion surrounding Xbox-360, compared to this stage in Xbox's development.

As for Xbo-360 lacking Blue-Ray tech, I'm not fussed, I dont really want to have to buy my entire DVD collection all over again.  Besides, it still remains to be seen how well Blue-Ray will do against HD-DVD in the mainstream video market, cough* -betamax- cough!

As far a cell goes, apart from plenty of hype, we're yet to see anything worth crowing about.  Those 8 SPE's with their rather modest 7M logic transistors each, dont quite inspire me to do hand-stands just yet.  

At the moment I pity Sony's cell/PS3 SDK programming team.

Cell:

http://www.blachford.info/computer/Cells/Cell0.html
 
http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?ArticleID=RWT021005084318

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-1.ars

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-2.ars

[Louis Dias]

Waccoon wrote:

Question:  if the consoles are so powerful, why are console development systems always conventional PCs and workstations?

It's not a question of power but a question of software.  Development tools exist on PC's so why reinvent the wheel.  Afterall, compilers aren't just limited to compiling for the cpu they are currently running on anymore...

SEGA was first to market and their technology was perceived as inferior to what was coming next (even though it was right on par with the PS2).

SEGA just didn't drive enough hype for the platform.  SEGA's dev kit was one of the best in the industry and the hardware itself was very clean.  Early PS2 titles looked like crap next to Dreamcast titles, and even newer titles still suffer from shakey textures and other artifacts.  I was very disappointed how easily the magazines wrote-off Dreamcast.

I always felt it was the way they divided their fan-base...do you buy a 32X or a Saturn...then 6 months later announce Dreamcast as right around the corner...

It seems like Nintendo learns from it's mistakes and competitors quickly.

N64 struggled a lot and Gamecube didn't really improve on that.  Nintendo had better have a very convincing lineup when the system is officially unveiled, or it will get burried under the unsurmountable hype machine that prevented people from buying Dreamcast.

[/quote]

Sony did a similar stunt with the PS2 like they did with the PS3 in February when they demoed the 'Cell'.  It was the 4.6GHz version that they used to 'wow' the crowd and strike fear of owning a 'weaker' system.  Anyone in there right mind knows that the PS3 won't sport a 4.6GHz version let alone the 10-core version...  They did something like this with the 'emotion engine' as well right around the time the Dreamcast was being released...

Well, what Nintendo learned with the N64 was to make a low cost system with an easy API.  The GC has been a money maker for Nintendo.  Nintendo also sports the quickest load times...I guess that was another thing they continued to do right...(yes, I know it was cart on N64 but I mean compared to Saturn and PS1 and the GC to the present systems as well).

[Louis Dias]

coldfish wrote:

Among developers, there's a lot less negativity and confusion surrounding Xbox-360, compared to this stage in Xbox's development.

I regretfully agree. [die MS die]

As for Xbo-360 lacking Blue-Ray tech, I'm not fussed, I dont really want to have to buy my entire DVD collection all over again.  Besides, it still remains to be seen how well Blue-Ray will do against HD-DVD in the mainstream video market, cough* -betamax- cough!

But supposedly, X360 is using it's current DVD format, not HD-DVD.

At the moment I pity Sony's cell/PS3 SDK programming team.

This is another Nintendo advantage - maintaining the same API as the Gamecube for Revolution.  Developers have already responded quite favorably to this.  I just hope Nintendo does go with HD-DVD just to have another edge over XBOX360 and hang with Sony on the media department...  No official word there yet.  Can't wait for E3!

[adolescent]

lou_dias wrote:
A quick note about Nintendo:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7848

Also, Nintendo only lost the #2 spot this Christmas shopping season due to the spurred sales of people wanting to play HALO 2.  

Yes, they lost it, and have yet to gain it back.  All indications prior showed MS and GC in dead heat with Sony waaaaaay out front.  Remember, we're talking about console only, not handheld.  The only reason Nintendo can continue to operate they way they do is because of Gameboy sales.  (ie. failures like Virtual Boy and Gamecube would likely bankrupt a lesser company)

The dark horse is Nintendo.  What I've read so far is that once again an existing chip (G5) is being enhanced per Nintendo specs (just like the G3 was) and it will include a 15GB hard drive.  Not to mention no-fee online play features and built-in Wi-Fi capabilities.  This CPU is called 'Broadway'.

This is nothhing new for Nintendo.  Remember the N64 used a custom MIPS CPU.  

As for the online play, I'll believe it when I see it.  In the case of the GCN it was a waste because the small number of games that supported it.  

It will also act as a hub for the Nintendo DS handheld to allow it to go online for free as well.

See above.  Had they used standard wifi you could do this now, not have to wait for the service to be available.  I play Twisted Metal free now on my PSP using my home router.

It will be backwards compatible with GC software and controllers as well.  It seems like Nintendo learns from it's mistakes and competitors quickly.

Define "quickly".  This is Nintendo's first home console with backwards compatibility.  I wouldn't say 20+ years is quick.

There are too many +'s to own Revolution over the other sytems.  The only real reason to own some other system for the next-gen is to play some exclusive titles.  As far as first party games, Nintendo has them all beat hands down.

The big -'s are that it doesn't exist.  So, you shouldn't bet on a winner this early in the game.  

As for first party games, if you want to play yet another Mario game, then sure.  But, Nintendo puts out lots of stinkers (Luigi's Mansion, Star Fox Adventures, WarioWare, etc.?) using their licensees.  If we were talking strictly about the GCN, then you could say the only reason to buy a GCN would be to play a few exclusive titles.