Kickflash experiences

[platon42]

> Things like a way to add a security block to the system that's not easily overriddne by the early startup menu to mention one... another "lamer" thing would be to add sound on startup like the A1000 and other systems have...

Algor/Romulus software has this. The Sentinel software is a password protection system to lock your computer from unauthorized users. It can be either used synchroneously (the computer will stop booting until the correct password has been entered) or asynchroneously (it will continue to boot, though the screen is locked until you pass Sentinel.

Edit: Ah yes, the Algor also comes with modules to *disable* the bootmenu completely, if you like. This speeds up booting and protects you from the user selecting other booting devices.

Also, BlizKick modules like the A1000 startup sound are included. The Algor comes with an bootintro for the card, nothing keeps you from doing your own.

[platon42]

> Off topic (but then again, what was the topic here?).

It's not off-topic, I think.

>Does the Algor/Romulous really boot before the drives are spinned/scanned?

Yes, the Zorro cards are initialized straight after expansion and exec.library, hence this is one of the very first actions the Kickstart ROM does.

Hence, it could *also* add virtual drives from the FlashROM to the list of devices. In fact, the installation disk (880KB) is held in FlashROM as a module, which will pop up automatically on booting with the Algor inserted the first time (no other FlashROM solution has this).

[platon42]

> But what is the point in using Algor or Kickflash as ***a Flash disk***, if their read speed is lower than that of a hard disk?

The point is: There are several people that are using CF-IDE-Adapters that are not faster than aprox. 2MB/sec on the internal controller. Do they care about the speed? No. Do they care about the power and the noise? Yes.

The point is: Even the 1MB or 2MB of the eFlash is ridiculously small to hold a complete booting partition, so this point is moot. And hence, this 1 or 2MB of data will be read in at no time (it might even go into caches soon enough, just to compensate for your silly speed argument). So actually, having a filesystem on FlashROM of that size does not make any sense on *any* flashrom solution, regardless of the access speed. This might look different with the 1GB module for the KickFlash. There, it obviously makes sense to have a filesystem.

The point is: Elbox does not include any software for that theoretical flashdisk. Even their booting off their PCI USB card does not work, even though the card is advertised with that feature.

[X-ray]

Okay, so can someone tell me in a nutshell, assuming those 1gb modules come out for the kickflash, what can I use that 1gb for? Does it add to available system ram for any program to use?
Or is it just device, like a rad: disk. If this is the case, can I dump a lot of stuff in thee and it will survive a power off or reset? Could be useful for projects in progress.

[voxel]

Hi ray :-)

The kickflash 1Gb module is said to be a sort of "ram disk", application would be to have a non volatile ram disk (it is a flashrom after all ;-) ) you would like to use for some kiosk or stb style boxes.

in an interactive device with touch screen, per example, it would replace entirely the hard drive (no need for one in such device, and 1Gb is sufficient for most applications and theirs datas and you don't have to write to disk), and thus will permit a totally silent device, without forgetting the gain on power comsomption.

Another BIG interest for this is it's TOTAL immunity to Viruses, as a flashrom can be made electricaly NOT WRITABLE by a simple jumper or keyswitch :-)

[X-ray]

@ Voxel:

Aaaaahhhh now I understand. So tell me, can I select whether I boot with the Kickflash or not? Because what I thought of doing is making a non-volatile System Disk to use in case for example my HD RDB gets eaten or otherwise made inoperable?
So in day to day operations I just boot normally (I got 3.1) but if it all falls apart I have a nice System disk in reserve in ROM. Can I do that, assuming the 1gb rom module comes out?

Nice to hear from you again, by the way
 :-)

[platon42]

@tjaoz:
[off-topic BS skipped]

BTW: Whenever it comes to facts, you gladly seem to ignore them. Although this is no new observance, I find it nice of you to admit your defeat this way, over and over again :-D

>Here 16MB/s of the eFlash 4000 and full random access to any address of its one or two megabyte of the Flash memory go far beyond other Flash solutions.

So? Full random *read only* access is worth nothing. But of course you know this already.

> Isn't the Algor/Romulus memory access sequential only? Does it have to the 64kB of Flash memory be read before getting to the last word of each Algor/Romulus memory page?

You're talking BS again, little Rat. Why don't you simply admit that you don't have a single clue about how Flash memory works, especially on the Algor? The Algor has full random access (bytes, words, longwords) within a window of 4 KB. The Algor flashrom can be read at full Zorro II speed (2.8MB/sec).

> If yes, this would mean that average random access to Algor/Romulus Flash memory is at the level of ca. 88 kilobytes per second.

If you had a brain, this would mean that something went utterly wrong at some point of your life...

> As for now Algor Pro is a vapourware. Isn't it?

No, it isn't. It is in production (delayed by some health problems). Users already have recieved Luciferin V1.6, which fully supports the Algor PRO. Hence, the software is ready for weeks now, only the cards have to be shipped.

> If now OS4 Kickstart files prove to be too large for 0.5MB in Algor/Romulus Flash, will E3B make Frieden brothers guilty of that?

Another lame attempt to twist my words. I said that the Friedens and E3B have an agreement and they will keep it. It is none of your business, how it will be implemented.

> Looks like Elbox and Individual had long known that 0.5 MB is not enough.

For the eFlash board providing *only* a flashrom feature wasting a complete Zorro III slot, this is a very poor result (the KickFlash at least has got an additional clockport which the eFlash lacks). The Algor was developed AND released more than a year ago (!), and its flashrom capabilities were only a nice bonus (the main purpose was to provide a fast USB controller) -- and STILL its features and product quality are not beaten by other products, especially not by the eFlash, which comes with three command line tools only for basic reading and writing the flashrom and NO documentation.

As for the rest of your (off-topic) message: cut the crap. This is getting pathological. Every reader of the review will make up their minds themselves and will wonder about how the card still could get 5 out of 6 points.

Anyway, you never will acknowledge that compared to the other solutions, the eFlash clearly loses the competition, so any further arguments are in vain (as usually). And if you weren't stating your BS so obviously, people might be believing you more easily. But by now, everybody knows who pays you for this. :-P

[voxel]

hello x-ray :-)

when that extension will be availlable, all you'll have to do for this will be setting it's boot priority a little lower than your HardDrive boot partition, so if the HD is unable to boot, the flashdisk will boot at it's place automagically :-)

now let's see what kind of "flashdisk.device" will be included with that extension :-)

q- Nice to hear from you again, by the way
:-) I've been very busy with my job(s) latelly, away from my beloved Amiga :-)

[DaNi]

If possible booting with the 1gb kickflash my dh0: partition, for example copying all my bootable partition to the kickflash =)

[tjaoz]

@voxel

The kickflash 1Gb module is said to be a sort of "ram disk", application would be to have a non volatile ram disk (it is a flashrom after all  ) you would like to use for some kiosk or stb style boxes.

I would not count on Individuals to ever make that mythological 1GB Flash disk connected to clock port.

A much better Flash disk for Amiga comes from connecting any Compact Flash (16MB to 6GB) card through the CF-IDE adapter to the IDE port. Those CF to IDE adaptors are available on ebay for around $6, look here.

Connecting Compact Flash memory through the 16-bit IDE port has a number of advantages over connecting Flash memory to the clock port (that is through the 8-bit data bus and 4 address lines only!).

[redrumloa]

I would not count on Individuals to ever make that mythological 1GB Flash disk connected to clock port.

Why must you spread FUD against your competitors? You want Mythological? The Shark is mythological.

[tjaoz]

@platon42

BTW: Whenever it comes to facts, you gladly seem to ignore them.

It is you, who is all the time casting false suspicions, and when I prove they are false, you change the subject matter.

So? Full random *read only* access is worth nothing.

This is what you want others to believe. You know why?  Because random read access in E3B cards is so messed up that it is unusable. So you have to pretend that Flash memory reading different from sequential is not necessary in Amiga. :-D

You're talking BS again, little Rat. Why don't you simply admit that you don't have a single clue about how Flash memory works, especially on the Algor? The Algor has full random access (bytes, words, longwords) within a window of 4 KB. The Algor flashrom can be read at full Zorro II speed (2.8MB/sec).

It is not true.

Random read access to Flash in E3 products CANNOT work at Zorro II full speed. To make this speed possible, even in the quoted by you 4KB window range, at least 12 Amiga address lines should be connected to the Flash. This is not the fact!
Just watch the Algor board and see connection of address lines. Well, it is enough to read the description of the connector, to which Romulus is connected. This connector has only 5 Amiga address lines connected!

What does it mean?
Address lines of the Flash memory in E3B cards are controlled not directly from Amiga, but indirectly through CPLD circuit. With this indirect control, 2 addressing methods could have been used:

1.  The CPLD circuit generates sequentially Flash addresses, incrementing the internal address counter at each successive reading.

2.  Access to the selected Flash memory location requires two steps: firstly--writing the address of the location (which you want to read from Flash) to the CPLD circuit, secondly--reading the Flash memory in the next access to the Zorro card.

If E3B chose the first option, read access depends on how far from the beginning of the 4KB page area the read location is located. For example, to read the 1000th word of the Flash page, additional 999 technical readings are necessary only for incrementing the CPLD address counter. With this solution, average random read time of Algor/Romulus Flash memory is 2.8 kilobytes/s :lol:

In the second case, reading the selected location of the Flash memory requires a prior sending information to CPLD about the window number and the address within the window. In the next command, this location can be read. Here, average random read time to Algor/Romulus Flash memory is  half of the Zorro II speed.

As the speed issue makes you so nervous, it looks like E3B decided on the first method. :-D

> As for now Algor Pro is a vapourware. Isn't it?

the software is ready for weeks now, only the cards have to be shipped.

Algor pro IS vapourware, according to your own vapourware definition. Until today Algor pro is not available.

For the eFlash board providing *only* a flashrom feature wasting a complete Zorro III slot, this is a very poor result (the KickFlash at least has got an additional clockport which the eFlash lacks). The Algor was developed AND released more than a year ago (!), and its flashrom capabilities were only a nice bonus (the main purpose was to provide a fast USB controller) -- and STILL its features and product quality are not beaten by other products, especially not by the eFlash

The quality of hardware of the Flash part of the Algor/Romulus cards is beaten by the Eflash 4000 hardware MANY times.

In ALL fields, the eFlash 4000 hardware is better:

1. eFlash 4000 is a fast and clean design, while Algor implementation of the Flash memory is a hard hardware hack.

2. eFlash is equipped with hardware protection against unwanted reprogramming, which is very important because Flash memories have limited reprogramming cycles amount. When you have no hardware write protection (Algor and Romulus case) of the Flash memory you are always exposed to destroying your Flash memory by a malicious virus before you find out that some software is rewriting it again and again.

3. eFlash 4000 uses hi-quality Flash memories, which can be programmed 100,000 times, not only 10,000 times like memories in Algor/Romulus.

I do not have to comment that the Algor's edge connector is not gold-plated, which in itself eliminates that product in the very beginning.
 
As regards your "fast" USB controller", it's a bit exaggeration. Algor is an old-fashioned obsolete USB 1.1 standard controller.

And if you weren't stating your BS so obviously, people might be believing you more easily. But by now, everybody knows who pays you for this.

Yesterday you suggested here that the German Amiga Plus mag was bribed by someone, and today you are suggesting that I was bribed.

The most funniest thing in all this is that you are being fed by E3B. :lol:

[Morley]

Oh children, behave....

[mboehmer_e3b]

My godness. While I spent two weeks in hospital, my friend Ratty is back again... well. I didn't expect fair behaviour from Elbox, so what.

This is what you want others to believe. You know why? Because random read access in E3B cards is so messed up that it is unusable.

Ah. Really. Unfortunately your idea of the access method used in ALGOR / ROMulus is wrong. Anyhow, in the outcome of this "unusable design" both ALGOR and ROMulus clearly won the AmigaPlus comparison test... they wrote that it even "outclassed the competitors" (page 27).
Good result for a "messed up and unusable design", don't you think?

Just watch the Algor board and see connection of address lines. Well, it is enough to read the description of the connector, to which Romulus is connected. This connector has only 5 Amiga address lines connected!

Haha. This is a good one. You know, ROMulus is located on both the HIGHWAY clockport and the expansion port.
I'm astonished that you made such a mistake while doing backward engineering.
Please download the HIGHWAY manual from my website and do your homework properly.
And, for exercising mathematics, clockports have four (4) address lines, namely A[5:2]. You know, one less than you have fingers on one hand.

In the second case, reading the selected location of the Flash memory requires a prior sending information to CPLD about the window number and the address within the window.

Moreover, a good one. Get back to Elbox laboratory and do some more backward engineering. You are wrong here, sorry.
Oh, BTW, doesn't a PCI solution from a Polnish company use exactly the banking technique you are describing here?

Algor pro IS vapourware, according to your own vapourware definition. Until today Algor pro is not available.

So the box here which arrived from the production line with ALGOR PROs must be a hoax, eh? Unfortunately I had to spend some time in hospital, so everything is delayed.

Finally, Ratty, you didn't improve. Badly done, your research. You should do better...

Anyhow, some remarks on the eFlash, just by looking at the picture in the AmigaPlus magazine:

- If speed really matters, how does it come that it doesn't support Zorro III burst mode (which is highly recommended in the spec for memory boards)? /MTCR and /MTACK lines are both missing.

- Why are the busdrivers for the data bus missing? The Macronix MX29F400 chips are not providing the required 64mA driving power on low side (according to the MX data sheet they make 2mA).

- Why is no /BERR handling included? This is mandatory for all Zorro II and III cards after the spec, to protect both expansion cards and motherboard logic from bus contention situations.

If I take the last two points, missing data bus drivers and no bus error protection... that's a "clean" design... in a heavily loaded backplane a single bus error condition could simply blast the eFlash memory chips...

One might even say that with these two clear violations of the Zorro III spec the eFlash4000 is not a Zorro III card, but something else.

Michael

[Doobrey]

1. eFlash 4000 is a fast and clean design, while Algor implementation of the Flash memory is a hard hardware hack.

 And a PCI busboard that won`t work without a GFX card isnt a hack?
The point is,who cares if it is a "hack", as long as it works..

3. eFlash 4000 uses hi-quality Flash memories, which can be programmed 100,000 times, not only 10,000 times like memories in Algor/Romulus.

Who in their right mind would actually need to reflash the memory 10,000 times let alone 100,000??
 Wanna use it as a flash disk? Better to get a CF/IDE adapter and a CF card.

The most funniest thing in all this is that you are being fed by E3B. :lol:

At least he`s open about being paid by E3B for his work.

Funny that Tjaoz, cos the only posts you ever make on Amiga.org are to promote Elbox`s products and slag off their competitors products. Do you get paid by your post count, or are you on a salary?

Sometimes you`re like a parrot, "its only USB1.1..Squawk...Slow..Squawk..Obsolete"
 So what if it is, ever thought that`s all some people might need??
 Do you really think people care about a bootup being 0.3 seconds slower? (or whatever it was)

Can`t everyone just stop these stupid p###ing contests?
 

[voxel]

Hi michael :-)

Nice to see you have recovered well :-D

Ha! a small question for you : it would be possible to make an extension like the 1Gb Individual's one for the Algor? Am I wrong? would it be possible you make such extension in a near future? a bootable one of course :-)

BTW, it's time to lay some rat traps around, don't you think ;-)