Kickflash experiences

[platon42]

orange wrote:
Maybe I didn't understand all this, but ROM is certainly read more than once unless it has been copied to RAM. All the programs use ROM routines, and most of Amiga OS is held in ROM  (thank God)
Can you explain me why are you all mentioning 1Gb, do you mean 1Mb? Kickflash is ROM image in flash memory, right?

There are only two "real" ROM spaces: 0xf80000-0xffffff where the normal kickstart ROM resides and 0xf00000-0xf7ffff for the "debugging" ROM (AFAIK used by CD32 and Cyberstorm/Blizzard early init ROM). The code in this location is already relocated to these fixed addresses -- they cannot be moved except by using virtual mapping by the MMU (or special hardware hacks like the MapRom feature).

Replacing Residents (aka RomTags aka Modules) from the ROM with new ones (e.g. from AmigaOS Update in 3.5/3.9/BB2) is done by relocating these modules somewhere in fast memory and letting a mechanism in the Kickstart ROM initialize the newer ones (KickTagPtr/KickMemPtr or the Residents list) instead the ones from the ROM.

Hence, as FlashROM actually behaves like a ROM in the sense that it cannot be written to in normal ways (it is not RAM), but you cannot guarantee that RomTags do not have DATA/BSS segments and need to write into associated memory or code, these modules have to be relocated to "real" RAM.

Under normal circumstances, this relocation of RomTags from the FlashRom only happens once at the very first boot, thus, the FlashRom is only read once and it is not time critical, how fast this is.

The Kickflash and Algor (PRO) cards are autobooting Zorro II cards, but they only use a 64KB segment of the Zorro II address space for accessing the 512KB/1MB of FlashRom.

Both Kickflash and Algor have to copy the contents to fast ram (including the kickstart rom image, that might be stored in there). (Again, this happens only once). The eFlash has to do this aswell, because of the reasons mentioned above (relocation) -- but unlike the other solutions, the eFlash cannot remap the Kickstart ROM.

The Kickflash has an additional clockport on its board, and it has been said that it should be able to hold a flash memory module with 1GB capacity (again, this will not show up as real memory in the computer, but rather some kind of ram-drive).

Hope this helps a bit.

[JohnFante]

Anybody else but adolescent (thanks by the way :-)) have any input on using Amiga Forever 3.1 ROM images in Kickflash?

 

[tjaoz]

@platon42

Ah, the little Elbox-Rat is back.

Ah, a poor E3B-bandog is back again,  :lol:
 

Oh, right! Except for that factor of ten must be from your wildest dreams, let's calculate: Reading 1MB over Zorro II with 2.8MB/sec is about 0.35 seconds. Now, reading 1MB over Zorro III with presumably 7MB/sec is 0.14 secs.

Your numbers problem recur again. The true numbers are:

1. Kickflash Flash memory access speed is about 1.4MB/s. This is half the Zorro II speed only because Kickflash Flash memory is physically connected to only 8 of the 16 data lines of the Zorro II bus.

2. Eflash4000 Flash memory access speed is about 16MB/s. Everyone can easy check it with the Bustest program.

The hardware of the Elbox' eFlash differs a lot from others Flashes. Eflash 4000 is a clear Flash memory design. The whole eFlash memory is directly available in the Amiga Zorro III area. It opens the possibility of using the eFlash 4000 card not only during the computer start like other Flashes but also as the non-volatile Flash disk with fast random access.

Yeah, and what would you want to fill in there? The eFlash software has no support for Kickstart flashing and it allows only a maximum of 15 modules.

You should check your sources before posting your imagination numbers about Elbox products.  Eflash 4000 software allows storing the AmigaOS ROM Update and 24 other modules. Not 15, as you wrote.

Unfortunately, the eFlash software does not support compression, unlike the Algor (Pro) software, hence, you could easily fit nearly same amount in an Algor Pro FlashRom-

So far software for eFlash 4000 does not need to use compression because this card includes from 2 to 4 times more Flash memory than other Amiga cards with Flash. AFAIK Elbox plans to include compression for OS4 modules. Adding the compression in the firmware is a matter of few hours for the software developer, though.

The important factor is the real amount of the Flash memory installed on the card. This cannot be changed by any software update.
In this category eFlash 4000 is always much ahead, especially ahead of E3B products.

I read the comment from an OS4 betatester that there is no chance to insert the OS4 Kickstart files into 0.5MB of the Flash memory (Algor/Romulus) even if you use strong compression. So, no OS4 Kickstart files in Agor/Romulus Flash memory?

In a german magazine, Amiga Plus (recent issue), Algor/Romulus, eFlash and KickFlash have been tested intensively.

I have not seen this test, so I cannot tell your fantasy apart from what was really written in this test.

I read in someone's comment that in this Amiga Plus review eFlash 4000/1MB WON with Kickflash. But it looks that this is something, what you would rather prefer to hide here. :-)

[Karlos]

*sigh* :-(

[platon42]

@Tjaoz:

As you don't seem to get it into your head: Speed for reading the flashrom does not matter. It is not time critical. This is no video memory or data memory that has to be accessed all of the time. It is read once. Is a  Rat's brain too small to get this?

> The whole eFlash memory is directly available in the Amiga Zorro III area.

So what? It doesn't make it RAM. You cannot write it directly, so your point is moot.

> It opens the possibility of using the eFlash 4000 card not only during the computer start like other Flashes but also as the non-volatile Flash disk with fast random access.

So? The flashrom of the Algor is accessable at any time after the machine has booted -- how would you be able to reflash it otherwise? (AFAIK the flashrom of the kickflash can also be accessed after booting, so what are you talking about?) For your information -- there is a flashdisk.device for the Algor for more than a year now, which could be used for a non-volatile Flash disk.

> You should check your sources before posting your imagination numbers about Elbox products. Eflash 4000 software allows storing the AmigaOS ROM Update and 24 other modules. Not 15, as you wrote.

Oh, they must have updated their software then -- unfortunately, even 24 modules is not enough e.g. for all parts of Poseidon and the ROM Updates. And even specifying 24 modules on a command line in a shell is ridiculous! Is this what Elbox calls userfriendliness?

> So far software for eFlash 4000 does not need to use compression because this card includes from 2 to 4 times more Flash memory than other Amiga cards with Flash.

The Algor PRO has 1MB of flash memory. With compression, you get close too 2MB capacity. What would you like to store in there?

> AFAIK Elbox plans to include compression for OS4 modules.
Just like Elbox planned the Shark PPC, the eFlash1200 or the MPEG card drivers?

There is a difference between providing something and merely "planning".

> Adding the compression in the firmware is a matter of few hours for the software developer, though.

Sure.

> I read the comment from an OS4 betatester that there is no chance to insert the OS4 Kickstart files into 0.5MB of the Flash memory (Algor/Romulus) even if you use strong compression. So, no OS4 Kickstart files in Agor/Romulus Flash memory?

Unlike Elbox, E3B has an agreement about the Algor/Romulus flashrom being supported by OS4. I've been in contact with the Frieden brothers several times and they suppose it is possible.

> I read in someone's comment that in this Amiga Plus review eFlash 4000/1MB WON with Kickflash. But it looks that this is something, what you would rather prefer to hide here.

Your wildest dreams, huh?

The Algor was rated with 6/6,
the Romulus got 5,5/6,
the eFlash 5/6,
the KickFlash 4/6

I will never ever understand, why the eFlash still got 5/6 (must have something to do with Elbox advertising in the mag on a full cover page?) after reading the review, especially concerning the serious flaws of NO documentation, NO GUI except for an "Installer script" dialogue and BROKEN functionality (adding rom modules by hand didn't work). But I guess, this is because the card was ZorroIII instead of ZorroII, which makes absolutely no noticeable difference.

Ah yes, the Algor has won in this test BY FAR. This is nothing out of imagination. I really hope Total Amiga will do their own reviews soon enough. Advertisment and PR gags are one thing, real product quality another.

[tjaoz]

@platon42:

As you don't seem to get it into your head: Speed for reading the flashrom does not matter. It is not time critical. This is no video memory or data memory that has to be accessed all of the time. It is read once. Is a Rat's brain too small to get this?

Is your head so small that only E3B cliches may find room there, like that: "Speed never does matter"? :lol:

When producers of computer USB cards stopped producing USB 1.1 controllers, replacing them with Hi-Speed USB 2.0 units, he started releasing USB 1.1 controllers (Highway/Subway/Algor). You know: For E3B products "Speed never does matter."  :lol:

For your information -- there is a flashdisk.device for the Algor for more than a year now, which could be used for a non-volatile Flash disk.

Oh, so you are now recalling that Flash cards may be used NOT ONLY during the computer's startup!!!

But what is the point in using Algor or Kickflash as a Flash disk, if their read speed is lower than that of a hard disk?

Here 16MB/s of the eFlash 4000 and full random access to any address of its one or two megabyte of the Flash memory go far beyond other Flash solutions.

Isn't the Algor/Romulus memory access sequential only? Does it have to the 64kB of Flash memory be read before getting to the last word of each Algor/Romulus memory page?
If yes, this would mean that average random access to Algor/Romulus Flash memory is at the level of ca. 88 kilobytes per second. Compare it with 16 megabytes per second, the average random access in the eFlash 4000 card! :-D

The Algor PRO has 1MB of flash memory.

As for now Algor Pro is a vapourware. Isn't it?
Quoting your words: 'There is a difference between providing something and merely "planning".'

> I read the comment from an OS4 betatester that there is no chance to insert the OS4 Kickstart files into 0.5MB of the Flash memory (Algor/Romulus) even if you use strong compression. So, no OS4 Kickstart files in Agor/Romulus Flash memory?

I've been in contact with the Frieden brothers several times and they suppose it is possible.

If now OS4 Kickstart files prove to be too large for 0.5MB in Algor/Romulus Flash, will E3B make Frieden brothers guilty of that? :-o
Looks like Elbox and Individual had long known that 0.5 MB is not enough.

The Algor was rated with 6/6,
the Romulus got 5,5/6,
the eFlash 5/6,
the KickFlash 4/6

I will never ever understand, why the eFlash still got 5/6 (must have something to do with Elbox advertising in the mag on a full cover page?)

Do you suggest that the Amiga Plus test is not objective and honest? :-o
If yes, it means that Algor's ranking is not objective and honest, as well.

Maybe you two, you and your friend from E3B, got in touch with someone from this German mag so that he praised your products?  Well, it's probably cheaper than sponsoring a magazine by buying advertising space.

In this way even an obsolete USB1.1-standard controller (it means without the Hi-Speed mode) may be easily made a high-end unit in any test, just let the tester pretend that he had never heard of any other USB standard. :-)

BTW Does the Kickflash producer not gives its advertising in Amiga Plus?

[Piru]

@tjaoz

Is your head so small that only E3B cliches may find room there, like that: "Speed never does matter"?

When producers of computer USB cards stopped producing USB 1.1 controllers, replacing them with Hi-Speed USB 2.0 units, he started releasing USB 1.1 controllers (Highway/Subway/Algor). You know: For E3B products "Speed never does matter."

Flash card designed to speed up booting and to allow USB stack to be launched even before OS has started is not an USB controller. It doesn't need the speed.

But what is the point in using Algor or Kickflash as a Flash disk, if their read speed is lower than that of a hard disk?

a) To allow USB stack to launch even before OS has loaded: Namely to allow use to USB keyboards, mice and mass storage.

b) To remove the need to have an extra reboot when using OS 3.5/3.9 (Remove the need to wait for hard disk to spin up, boot, load startup-sequence, start SetPatch, reboot, wait HD become available again and continue booting)

These are the main functions of Algor/Romulus afaik.

[tjaoz]

@Piru

Sorry, but your a), b), c) have nothing to do with the question, to which you responded.

The question was:  

But what is the point in using Algor or Kickflash as ***a Flash disk***, if their read speed is lower than that of a hard disk?

[Piru]

@tjaoz

Why would anyone want to replace harddisk with slower, smaller capacity and shorter lifetime flash disk?

Noise? Today's HDs are really quiet. Typically PSU fan makes more noise.
Seek time? Doesn't compensate the slow read/write speed. RAM: and RAD: are way faster anyway.
Removable & easy to pick with you? Well, I wouldn't call Zorro card removeble media... HD on removable HD rack makes much more sense.

I'm sorry but this flash disk usage doesn't just make any sense.

The only sensible use I can think of is holding extra ROM modules / new kickstart and/or drivers. That way system can be expanded to allow it to use special HW even before system itself boots up (USB devices for example). That doesn't involve flash disk.

[kolla]

The point is to have support for big drives and filesystems, as well as USB (HID, storage) at boot time. What is the point of wasting a zorro slot on a card with as limited features as the eflash? I dont get it, these days one should rather create multipurpose cards like the algor and catweasel.

[Brian]

I can see more uses for a flash card even though getting ridd of reboots and getting USB at start is the main reason why I've ordered one. Things like a way to add a security block to the system that's not easily overriddne by the early startup menu to mention one... another "lamer" thing would be to add sound on startup like the A1000 and other systems have... bootpictures etc.

[Orjan]

@brian

Which card do you have, and are you satisfied with it?

[redrumloa]

Which card do you have, and are you satisfied with it?

I have both the Kickflash *AND* Algor. I must say, both are class products. I'd highly recomend either. I can't comment on the eFlash though, I already own 2 superior products:-)

[adolescent]

Piru wrote:
b) To remove the need to have an extra reboot when using OS 3.5/3.9 (Remove the need to wait for hard disk to spin up, boot, load startup-sequence, start SetPatch, reboot, wait HD become available again and continue booting)

Off topic (but then again, what was the topic here?).  Does the Algor/Romulous really boot before the drives are spinned/scanned?  I thought there was no way around this.  (ie. the system has to scan devices looking for boot information (priority, etc.).  Does the Algor totally bypass this including early startup?  Or does it just look like another bootable device.

[Doobrey]

Yup, all the flashrom cards work before booting off the HD..
It`s all part of the autoconfig, scanning for expansion roms (normally found on things like SCSI controllers or accelerators) and then running it`s startup code..at this point the Amiga doesn`t even know what a drive is, let alone knowing if it wants to boot it or not.
 Nothing is actually bypassed, it`s all still there..
 Think of it as a reprogrammable kickstart chip, and not a drive and you`ll get the idea.

[platon42]

> Things like a way to add a security block to the system that's not easily overriddne by the early startup menu to mention one... another "lamer" thing would be to add sound on startup like the A1000 and other systems have...

Algor/Romulus software has this. The Sentinel software is a password protection system to lock your computer from unauthorized users. It can be either used synchroneously (the computer will stop booting until the correct password has been entered) or asynchroneously (it will continue to boot, though the screen is locked until you pass Sentinel.

Edit: Ah yes, the Algor also comes with modules to *disable* the bootmenu completely, if you like. This speeds up booting and protects you from the user selecting other booting devices.

Also, BlizKick modules like the A1000 startup sound are included. The Algor comes with an bootintro for the card, nothing keeps you from doing your own.