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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« on: November 13, 2014, 06:47:36 PM »
Hi all.

As a paying OS4 customer (been using OS4 on and off since the very first release for Amigaone XE G4), I just wanted to raise the issue of the new pricing policy regarding "OS4.1 FE", which in practice will be the seventh update of OS4.1.

I must say I feel more than a little tricked by this strange and sudden move.

I once paid 138,85 EUR (incl vat and shipment) for OS 4.1 (the Pegasos version) and had to wait 2 weeks for a  worthless CD I never had any use for (it has never even entered my CD-ROM, not once), since you have to download the  "4.1 update 1" ISO the first thing you do anyway, and install the OS from there. All the 4.1 updates were supposed  to be included, that was always "the deal", right? But now rules have changed,  and as reported in this thread I now obviously have to spend *even more* money on *another* worthless  physical "OS4.1" CD if I want to be able to download further 4.1 updates from  the Internet.

Also, the second hand market for OS4.1 disappeared in one blow by this. It will be impossible for me to sell "OS4.1.6", no matter the price, since it suddenly was rendered utterly worthless. Of course I knew that "OS4.2" would once again mean a new purchase (as has been communicated all along), but since I (and I'm not the only one) looks at "4.2" as some kind of utopia (with a promised feature set that is quite impossible in an *Amiga compatible* environment) I was - and still am - quite convinced that it will never actually happen, or at least take a *very* long time. So while I of course bought OS4.1 to use it, I still kind of presumed that there would be an option open to sell it as second hand to someone else down the road as long as "4.2" hadn't been released.

But this obviously changed with this sudden and unexpected decision to charge money once again for an OS4.1 update already!

I feel double-tricked, there is no way to move either forwards or backwards without either losing money already spent, or spend even more money. And remaining passive is not really an option either, since all upcoming OS4.1 updates will require "OS4.1.7"/"FE". I feel that this was never the deal. OS4.2 was to be the next paid update.

I think this really sucks.

:(
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2014, 10:24:19 PM »
- Deleted -

Violation TOS

No Vulgar/inappropriate Behavior.
No Personal Attacks
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 06:54:55 AM by kjmann »
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2014, 10:43:51 PM »
Quote from: danbeaver;777417
"What encourages developers for a small installed-base OS to continue to program?" ... Would paying them money to do something be a positive motivation?


Developers *actually getting paid* would indeed be a very good thing for motivation!

:lol:

(Sorry for the "smash", but you really served me a "smash ball" there ;))
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2014, 10:59:11 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;777425
Bitch, bitch, whine, snip.  Thanks, you just made up my mind for me to buy a copy of 4.1 FE when it's available.


/me pats the Schäfer on its head: Good Boy! And get yourself a X1000 for it as well while you are in this charity mode, so you'll actually have some *use* for it!

Quote
I believe in supporting the developers.


So do I, this was obviously never the issue here.

:rolleyes:
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2014, 11:12:52 PM »
Quote from: amigadave;777431
I ask one of the other moderators to handle any reported posts


I don't "report" posts, never had, never will. This is a fundamental on-line principle I have.

Quote
Members who post opposing opinions to yours are not automatically considered a personal attack.


But come on. Look at post #1 in this thread, and then on the following three pages. Compare the intellectual level, compare their purposes and their contents. Only 2 or 3 are actually discussing the topic, the rest are about ridiculing in flock, character assassination, etc. But I digress, this has been the norm in every single OS4 centric site I have ever visited. I knew what was coming the minute I pressed the "Submit" button.

Quote
If your claims were true about the corporate mentality of this site, your original post would have been deleted shortly after it was first posted.


Mind you, this was my 2nd try to raise focus on this subject.

:rolleyes:
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2014, 11:30:04 PM »
Quote from: utri007;777437
Boring :(



I think that it is a fair assume that you are not a position to assume anything about that.

This whole thread is a fake, I don't belive that TMHGM has bought a copy of OS4, nor used it. There was a thread wich made it quite clear. This whole thread is purposely targetted to spread FUD.


OMG!!!

:rolleyes:

(Attaching a picture of my OS4.1 box)
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2014, 12:00:41 AM »
@Karlos

Why on Earth do you believe these are relevant questions - in the context of my #1 post here - to ask me? I have seen several posts in this thread similar to this one. Why does it matter to what I have to say about Hyperion changing the rules in the middle of the game, "breaking the deal" about OS4.1 updates being free, 4.2 being the next version costing money?

People dream about "Amiga's Return" in the shape of OS4, but there is a lot of things in this thread suggesting that you simply aren't ready, you couldn't handle *real* people (from "outside" the cult) asking *real* questions about usability and ethics of OS4 and its parties!  This thread is a school book example of this!

I bought OS4 because 1) I'm an Amigan, 2) I like to follow with my own eyes what's really happening, how things are evolving, 3) I have no problem in supporting my hobby with my money. I ended up on place #14 with my $102 for the Odyssey bounty, which finally brought a real, decent browser (or at least the chance of it happening) to OS4. (Which place did you end up in, "Oldsmobile_Mike"?) Yes I do favor MorphOS any day (this has never been a topic of this thread, despite many people's tries), Yes I advocate MorphOS in public (not in this thread BTW, and not in the other one either (I edited out the one and only short reference to MorphOS I made so that moderators wouldn't perceive the thread of being "Blue vs. Red flamefest" but a genuine OS4-only discussion, not that it helped much in the end, but I tried)). But why wouldn't I be allowed to own an OS4.1 setup at the same time to learn about it? And why would my "MorphOS preference" be of any relevance to the issue I raised in Post #1? Doesn't MorphOS, AROS, Amiga, Windows, MacOS, Linux etc user have the right to own and have an opinions on OS4?

It's obviously all about Gospel. Everyone must sing. And some people does even if they haven't got a clue and not being part of it. This is why OS4 will fail, "real people" (general computer users, meaning "outsiders", and more specifically Alternative OS Enthusiasts) will never accept this "Cult and Worship" idea. And you don't see this requirement in the MorphOS or AROS communities BTW...

This has been a valuable thread, something to learn from, in several dimensions. I'm glad I started it.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 12:03:38 AM by takemehomegrandma »
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2014, 12:39:05 AM »
- Deleted -

Violation TOS

No Vulgar/inappropriate Behavior.
No Personal Attacks
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 06:53:47 AM by kjmann »
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2014, 12:46:49 AM »
Quote from: Niding;777449
Well, there are different approaches to how things are "called out".

Dan Woods/Kookytech and Epsilon covers all things Amiga, and Kooky has said on several occations that he thinks MorphOS is better atm than AOS. Tbh, from what Ive seen I find it hard to argue with him on that point.
But he does so in a coherent, collected, systematic and sometimes even funny manner. Not coming off like a frothing ranter.

I dont see any reason to belittle other peoples choice of platform, nor the developers for them.
I wouldnt register on MorphZone for example just to go riot about how it compares to XYZ OS's. They, like AOS and AROS got limited resources and developers in general, so expections of progress have to be accordingly.

Then again, either "side" seems to have their share of atagonizers in it for the "lolz", so its a thankless job for the moderators.


Not once in post #1 did I mention MorphOS, not once did I discuss pros/cons, not once did I belittle other peoples choice (which I actually share, having actually bought OS4.1 for my Pegasos2, although my preference obviously *is* MorphOS). Neither did I register here to go riot how MorphOS compares to XYZ OS.

Post #1 had nothing to do with sides. It was all about Hyperion's changed pricing policy for OS4.1. All Red. Nothing Blue.

You are a prime example of what I meant with "schizophrenia" above. You can't see what's actually there, you are debating ghosts. Fighting windmills.
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2014, 01:07:42 AM »
Quote from: Niding;777455
Not really.

I was commenting on a general basis the tone and how to present a case. I could use AROS, Toothbrush, AOS, MorphOS, a dish at the local resturant as an example.

Its how some people argue with a realtivly friendly demeanor, and then some jump up and down throwing arguments at people like snowballs.

The case at hand has nothing to do with that.


Well, when writing post #1 in this thread, I wasn't happy about the subject of the post. This is still the case. Even more so after 3 pages of abuse. This reflects my tone. I claim the right to put forward an "unhappy tone" when I'm not happy with something.

However I never mentioned anything else than OS4, didn't compare it to anything at all, didn't belittle anyone, didn't troll, didn't spread FUD, did *nothing* besides what's in post #1. Basically, this thread is three pages of reactions to something that simply was never there.

Post #1 is still there if you want to read it again.

And of course, so is the 3 pages of responses.

This thread is worthy of a bookmark for future schoolbook examples!
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2014, 01:18:49 AM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;777457
You might want to refer back to this politely worded post


  • You disregard the commonly know fact that paying OS4.1 customers would receive free upgrades until OS4.2
  • You side with "gizmo350's" rather weird views that it lies within *my* responsibility (as an end-user, no - rather a *potential* end user - according to him) to actually research a road-map for OS4 and their future upgrade policies regarding various HW platforms before I buy, from an entity that is notoriously more silent than a Black Hole on anything more future than a year in the past?
  • You actually *blame me* for ending up being a somewhat disgruntled customer, because of 1) and 2) above?


You continue to amaze me, Oldsmobile_Mike.

:laughing:
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2014, 01:49:52 PM »
Quote from: spirantho;777483
@takemehomegrandma

I think the problem people have with your post starting the thread, is this:

Would your reaction have been the same if it had been MorphOS that had suddenly asked for 30 Euros for next update?


  • Of course, since suddenly introducing a new license fee on MorphOS 3.8 out of the blue would be the same "breach of contract" with the users as this case is; all +0.1 version bumps within a "big" MorphOS version line is free of charge. I actually expected that v3.0 would mean a new license, since it was a major upgrade, but that din't happen, my 2.0 license was still valid for 3.x upgrades.
  • You really don't think (you falsly take for granted for some reason) that I have never publicly critizised the MorphOS price and pricing policy? This is utterly wrong, I have been very vocal online on this subject, especially about the (then) high price (150 Euros), that it was tied to one machine only and couldn't be transfered if I upgrade to another machine, and that there was no discount for purchase of multiple licenses. All is still there (on Morph.Zone if you dig some).

  • New users are constantly joining the MorphOS community, and with some frequence and regularity some of them will do just this, publicly raise question and express their views on MorphOS price and its pricing policy and license scheme. The discussions can go on for a couple of posts, but never, *NEVER* are they met with the kind agression and hostility as OS4 supporters (especially those who actually never have had OS4, which is a funny fact) *always* shows as soon as anything/whatever is said about OS4 that isn't pure Gospel! You don't see this in the AROS community either, or in Amiga "Classic", it's something *exclusive* for OS4. And I find it *sick* to be honest. Many are the threads about MorphOS license costs and policies on Morph.Zone, far from everyone express happy thoughts about it, but they are *never* met with this kind of hostility shown here, no abuse, there has never been a need for moderation whatsoever (I'm not even sure there are moderators on that site, that's how little you notice them), and I don't think it even has those "report buttons" that together with frontier moderation style is such an essential, core component in everything OS4 online.

Quote
I think many of us suspect that instead of that, you would have posted about how "MorphOS is now the cheapest, as well as the best OS"


This is not even a hypothesis; the cost of compatible HW + MorphOS usually is around 1/10th to 1/30 of of the price for an OS4 system that in best case is only slightly less powerful than the MorphOS one, and in worst case only delivers a fraction of the performance.

Quote
and "MorphOS is now allowing people to support their devs again after years of unpaid work!".


Karlos and Itix are discussing the saturation of the OS4 market above. OS4 has been locked into an impossible HW situation, like... Forever! And even more so the last half decade! The only few people willing to actually pay those insane price tags for those ancient performance machines only to run something like OS4, did so a long time ago already! The OS4 license model depends on a constant stream of new users. But no new users are coming! They are all here already, and if anything, some are actually leaving! So they are breaching their "deal" with the current users that the next paid update would be OS4.2, and decides to charge money once again for OS4.1 through the seventh update.

MorphOS developers on the other hand sell new licenses all the time. Their license model instead depends on a constant stream of new supported machines and HW platforms. The possible HW offerings are today just as versatile as the "super company" Apple's was for PPC, since it's essentially the same! Compact, tiny footprint Mac Mini, several big box G4 towers, many different laptop models, heavy G5, etc. Each new supported platform renders new sales of OS licenses, to existing users, but also to new users from other parts of the community (I wouldn't be surprised if there are more OS4 users that also has one or more MorphOS license, than OS4 users who still doesn't have a single one).

Look at this graph, and draw your own conclusions, since then KimmoK was very close to get the magic #2500 license, and #2534 from Debaser was reported as the highest number, but that was a while ago now:

(Edit: I shrunk the size of the image a bit, click on it for the original size)



Up to v2.3, MorphOS only supported Pegasos (1&2) and Efika. Had the MorphOS Team not decided to go for Mac PPC HW, then the graph would quickly have levelled out after the 2.3, ending up as an horizontal line very close to only #740 licenses sold, and it would forever have been stuck in a saturated market since then. Just like OS4 finds itself in now.

Luckily, the MorphOS Team went with a different strategy than the OS4 dudes... :)

So yes, "MorphOS is now allowing people to support their devs", not by asking for charity or by double-charging their already sold licenses, but by introducing a stream of new offerings that people actually finds interesting enough to buy. An owner of a Mac Mini or a big box Power Mac can easily become interested in a laptop offering as well!

:)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 02:49:51 PM by takemehomegrandma »
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Offline takemehomegrandmaTopic starter

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Re: Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2014, 10:18:52 PM »
Quote from: Niding;777625
Basically I, for one, accept the choice of hardware that has been made, and try to find the positive from THAT perspective.


What's positive about the chosen HW path? :confused:

The price for a X1000 system is higher than a massive *Power8* system from Tyan, while it's beaten by a decade old G4 laptop in most CPU intensive benchmarks that has been made public. Sam460 is slower than a 2004 Pegasos2 and a system will land at about a thousand Euros. The "X5000" coming in 2015/2016(?) is basically a 64-bit beefed up "G3" and will probably all in all be more of a side-way move than a move forward compared to the X1000, and IIRC it will *not* be considerably cheaper.

Meanwhile, the world has moved on to 2014. X86 is today several computer ages ahead from what is being discussed here. *Dimensions* apart, at the fraction or the cost!

Heck, even ARM is way ahead. Last year Apple released their first products based on their custom ARM architecture "Cyclone", developed completely in-house (ironically probably by CPU architects from PA-Semi/PA6T such as Jim Keller), which is actually *wider than Haswell* (image) based CPU's from Intel, such as Core i3/i5/i7. The Cyclone was actually a desktop class architecture, in a mobile CPU package. This year (2014) they released products based upon the *second* version of "Cyclone" (name of this architecture is AFAIK still unknown), and an iPhone 6 produces a spec int value just shy of a 2.5 GHz *G5* CPU. This should put things into perspective! Passively cooled, powered by a tiny pocket battery.

Remember AMD, the Intel competitor, those who bought ATI (Radeon)? In May this year (2014) they publicly demonstrated their first "Opteron A" series of ARM SoC chips (4-8 64-bit Cortex A57 cores, 8 x SATA3, 2 x PCIe 3 x4 slots (or 1 x x8), Up to 128GB DDR3/4 RAM). In 2015, AMD will be releasing their "Skybridge" line of CPU's, which will be the first pin compatible x86 and ARM (Cortex A-57 based) CPU's. In 2016 they will release *their* custom Desktop Class ARM CPU, the "K12" (development lead by Jim Keller).

During the last couple of years there has been many interesting HW solutions based upon Cortex-A8, Cortex-A9, Cortex-A15, and now the 64-bit Cortex-A57 is rolling out. We are talking *extremely* cheap but still very potent HW, the *perfect* hobby machines. And not to mention the x86 desktop/laptops!

So again, please tell me, what are the "positive things" you focus on regarding the OS4 HW path, really?

:confused:
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)