A suggestion to keep the Amiga spirit alive...

[Wain]

mikrucio wrote:
Consoles are not sold as a loss.

Sony makes millions of dollars PROFIT from ps2 sales
not to mention games.

Wrong.

Playstation 1:
http://www.alexassoc.com/white/sony.shtml

XBOX:
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-912973.html

Article about PS2's european lauch at http://www.gameszone.co.uk/Features/playstation2/playstation2europeanlaunch.htm  says:
"Traditionally, manufacturers make little  or no profit, or even a loss, on consoles to establish a large user base.  These losses are then recouped through software sales."

and over here, about the release of the psx:
"The unveiling of the PSX was the highlight of a presentation by Sony executives outlining a new strategy to calm investor jitters after the company last month reported a worse-than-expected loss of 111 billion yen ($945 million) for the January-March quarter."
at: http://www.inreview.com/archive/topic/4446.html


Console machines do not traditionally sell at a profit, and Sony is not making "millions" from Playstation 2 sales.

[aardvark]

And KMOS, why not share some more info with us. I don't like a single bit about this "we are quiet" policy.

Wells Fargo, can you tell us about your new stagecoach replacement technology you're working on?
"Uh, we are quiet about that, don't want to tip off our competition."

Ajax Buggy Whip Works, can you tell us more about your plans for replacements of your Ajax Model 4000 buggy whip?
"We are quiet about that right now.  When we have something to report we will do so."

 :-D  :lol:  :-D

[aardvark]

Actually Comodore on numerous occasions would package software with it's computers to aid sales.  CliMate, Wordsworth, Ports of Call and oh at least 10 or 12 others  were packaged with 2000s, 500s, 1200s and others.  Of couse at the time they were considered contemporary programs.  If KMOS/Hyperion/Amiga whatever licensed/purchased the original code to some of the more popular Amiga programs and then ported them to OS4 as well as improving them in some way, that might just boost sales.

Lemmings, Deluxe Paint, Deluxe Music, Wordsworth and others that you can think of, coded for fast PPC processors and tweaked for todays standards (Surround Sound, HDTV, XVGA, Online play/posting) would rock even today.
I mean if people are buying XP compatible versions of Pacman, retro is popular enough for a pretty widespread niche market. Anyway, these companies aren't making any money on their code as it is, so  a deal tied to sales of Amiga OS4 or to PPC computers could put some money in their pockets without being too onerous to (whomever).

This bring me back to where Ted Turner really made his millions.  He bought up the rights, the libraries, film vaults, whatever of cash strapped movie studios who thought that _nobody_ would ever want to see 30s/40s/50s/60s movies . And then between specialty cable outlets and Video sales, Turner cleaned up.  While Nintendo jealously guards Mario and Donkey Kong and have learned to sell and promote them through more modern consoles and other media, and comic book producers jealously guard their rights to Spiderman, Superman, Batman, etc., there is an extremely wide swath of games originally put out for Amiga, Atari, Coleco, Dreamcast and Sega that have not been exploited or renewed in any meaningful way.  The hardware agnostic ideas of Amiga DE and perhaps the rights to the first six months only on Amiga could prove pretty powerful. :idea:  To someone with imagination anyway (and a good bit of spare cash) :-D

[Coder]

@aardvark

I would like to see some "old" software making a comeback. Some games updated that might be a seller. If you going to port all those Windows games people will go, well I can play that on my Windows box to so why should I buy new hardware? Have some old games redone. :-)

Coder

[gizz72]

Also, what ever happen to those 'killer apps' they were talking about it long ago?
High-end Graphics software should at lease be ported like those 'Pinnacle-systems' SW/HW alike. Or update the toaster to run an update/rewritten Lightwave that runs on PPC native, or Adobe. Surely, the Amiga market should need those software licenses. At least, I like to see a movie like 'Shrek' done completely on Amiga? I mean, the Amiga almost had it with RoboCopTVS,StarTrek6, or Babylon 5 when Mac came in and replace all Amiga Workstation,almost.
That's where the Amiga became known in the first place. Not just those games and simple WB apps, demos and stuff. I just hate that when some companies blew it and throw it all out at, the ironic, WINDOW!
Too bad though...  :-)

before I forget check out this thread


Good day to all Amigans! :-D

[Kronos]

bhoggett wrote:


I think it's a feeble idea.

Did you miss that Blacki stepped down a "year" ago ?

/me is just trying to stir this discussion to OT, so it may make atleast a little sense.

[BigBenAussie]

C'mon guys,

I want to address many of the issues raised in this thread that just show that people have their heads totally in the clouds. I should know, as I've made all the same suggestions before.

1. We need to get OS4 used by businesses/enterprises.

Not going to happen.
It hardly happened in the Amiga's heyday and without having ever established a business reputation how do you think it will happen now, especially with the lack of clout the currently involved companies have? What you might be able to do, but even then fail at, is imitate the LAMP model used for web based services.
LAMP is Linux, Apache, MySQL and Perl.
I hazard a guess that AOS will have PPC versions of Apache, MySQL and Perl developed at some stage. However, even when they are, why pay for AOS when you can get Linux practically for free and there is more support? Again, even this is not going to happen except for hobbiests.

I once suggested an enterprise version of AmigaOS hosted on Linux for SMEs as it is considered a more established and mature OS with much more functionality and software supported by the big boys. But the argument against was why would you purchase it over another distro? And everyone hated that it would then be a bloated OS which would most likely run slower than AOS. No one wants compromise.

2.  We need to make an Amiga console.

Not going to happen.
The A1 in any guise will always be too expensive and underpowered to warrant such a thing. And even if it did come to fruition there would be no software which is the death knell of any console. Eyetech's idea of licensing the hardware design to third parties so they can make uA1s into set top boxes or DVD players or whatever is destined to fail. Why would a company license the A1 hardware specs when MS is offerring them  incentives for superior XBox2 hardware licensing? MS have completely crushed this idea for Eyetech. Even though, one would argue that it was already unfeasable, as there would be no reason for potential clients not to adopt a similar specced and cheaper x86 system, which I dare say would probably be more established and run more software.

The only way to get an Amiga console, of any strength is to license an established  console maker's hardware spec, and make the SUPER AMIGA that everyone wanted based on that superior cutting edge hardware. It would have more features added, like more memory, HD space, DVD burners and more Mghz. Sure it would be riding on someone else's coat-tails but it would get the Amiga a lot of exposure. It would be more expensive than the base console, but a premium brand with computer functionality. A console that can also be used as a computer, like the original Amiga concept. The best selling A500 sold well on such a principle. No one begged their parents for PCs. Basing the Amiga on a new console, maybe even in the Amiga Fantasy case, would actually be going back to roots. You would be able to run games software from an established player in the console market, without requiring a port, and those games could even hit the hardware.  You would be able to boot OS4 from a bootup screen and even have it autoboot if no DVD is present. Programming for what is essentially a super console through OS4 would get a lot of comers. I nearly went and bought the Linux for PS2 kit because it was sooooo cool, and I wanted to program a game based on the same console hardware. If it had been the AmigaOS it would have been a slam dunk for me. It would lead to a plethora of homebrew and perhaps even commercial Amiga titles, and the better ones may have even have had the opportunity to be released for the base console. It would have been THE perfect platform for games programming, which is now even being taught in Universities around the world. Maybe Sony could be convinced. With AOS's HAL the OS could be lifted to the next generation of consoles just as easily. And it looks likely for the foreseeable future, that consoles will be PowerPC based. We are ready for this step, and AOS would not require drivers for everything under the sun. The next gen consoles will stay ahead of expensive PC hardware for far longer in coming generations.

3. We need to get a port of .NET.

Not a good idea, and not going to happen anyway.
Mono will never be able to keep up with the changes MS makes every year. I can hardly keep up with programming for the damn platform, imagine how the hell the mono team could keep up with its implementation. Besides C# is almost used exclusively in enterprise applications, and very rarely in off-the-shelf software. Something like the Office suite is NEVER going to be programmed using unmanaged code, which is the kind of code that would make a port feasable in the first place. What Enterprise would trust it?

A C# or even VB type language could be a boon however for programming under AOS as long as it had a similar API under AOS.  Why you couldn't just preparse the syntax of the language back to C++ and compile it to a native executable I don't know (I like to KISS). An easy to use language would be of more use and get more developers to make the shift. I would be programming for AOS tomorrow if Java existed(and especially if it could be natively compiled), and if a VB type language existed I would be already. Its not so much that we need to port currently existing apps from other platforms within that language, but rather that we could leverage the developer base for those languages, in that they wouldn't have to relearn the wheel. As cool as Reaction may be, I don't have the time nor inclination to learn an entirely new API. Better to encapsulate Reaction functions in a popular API, that the greatest developer base understands, be it Java or .NET or both. Maybe such an implementation would waste some clock cycles, but what's a cycle or two when you need more software for the platform. There is a blitzBasic like product out there(not OOP), but what I would love to see is something as all encompassing as RealBasic which is cross platform and caters for App and games programming. They're not about to do a port though.

I really wish I knew if AmigaDE would address some if not all of these issues or even if it is still in development. I would really like to see a cross platform alternative to Microsoft's (windows based) XNA initiative, which looks set to cut everyone out of cross platform development for a long time to come.

4. We need a port of this, this and that from FOSS.
How are you going to attract commercial developers if you're just going to port everything from Linux? Yes, you want more software, but you're shooting yourself in the foot!!! This is almost as bad as piracy for a platform. Or is it? I don't know. Why would I expend effort to build an office suite or a browser if you're intent on porting them from another platform for free? I have no answer to this, but I just want you to consider what is going on.

Related to this is a con against licensing classic software as part of a bundle that comes with AOS4. You'd have to really like the software to go ahead an purchase the PPC version then wouldn't you? I don't know, this is so scary, its keeping me away from making an effort as an Amiga developer.

A project I am currently working on is for Windows only, and I can't see a port as feasable, especially in terms of the API divide. The further I go the worse it gets.

[Dan]

DeluxePaint and Say, thats what anybody who once owned an A500 will be looking for when testing a new Amiga.

[Holley]

1. We need to get OS4 used by businesses/enterprises

Small or home offices, yes - if it can't be used to do the basic office tasks that most people need to use (even if only occationally), then nobody is going to use it for their main home computer, are they?  Enterprise isn't ever going to happen, nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft.

[cecilia]

Wain on 2004/6/7 22:16:40

yeah! Wain's back!!!!
:banana:


the First thing I did with my Amiga2000 (half meg agnus, no HD, no acceleration, etc) was to set up the Say program, call a friend of mine and had my new computer talk for me on the phone!!

Amiga Spirit = FUN!
:banana:

[Wain]

Awwww!!  Thanks Cecilia (sniff)
 :-)

If we're going to talk about the necessity of 4GL's, and platform API's like .NET and VB and things of that nature, it'd be better if we tried to get ones that already exist on several platforms instead of vainly trying for the MS-incompatible with everything else in existence-version.

The Amiga computer is currently a hobbyist machine, so let's start trying to appeal to other hobbyists before even beginning to approach the "Windows and Panther are my personal Gods" people.  Get some of these "alternative computing" geeks out there to buy one just as something else to play with, and see if we can't garner some popular support that way first.

[Coder]

Hi,

It's simple. You need a good office suite, good e-mail program and a decent browser. If I show my A1 and OS4 to my gf she will ask just that. Ofcourse there is more then that but those are the basic requirements. If I don't have that my gf will say, why bother with it at all?

Coder

[BIG-IRON]

Simple...magazine coverage of new amiga hardware, now getting the coverage aint so simple but if you build it and advertise it they will come. If a good article in a large computer/gaming magazine came out and lets say that magazine had just 100,000 readers (many computer/gaming magazines have many times that) and just 1% of the readers bought an amiga do the math! now times that by 10 articles in 10 magazines.
     The other answer is obvious we are the ones who can keep it alive, we need to be welcoming and helpfull. If we get cult-like and closed society no one will want to be involved.
      I know this is wishfull thinking but If ya dont dream it cant happen!

[gizz72]

Greetings,

Miss this thread. Anyway, most of the new consoles have so much to offer. Too much, that the feeling is no longer there IMO.
Sometimes we have to go back to the basics of things. We can still make retro style games using existing tools and make a simple, and yet it has the modern concept like network capabilities. We must follow where the market is going to. Like Interactive RPG, strategy, Fighting games etc? How about a Yu-Gi-Oh style/concept of network game. It's bound to be a nice one somewhere(with chat capabilities like dark chess).
A good example would be yahoo flash games, they're simple yet it's possible to make it on the Amiga with little effort.
If all the coders in the community can band together to create an ultimate game for New and classic machine, maybe it can be pull-off. Or do what they do on AROS. Place a bounty. At least it was created by Amiga users, for Amiga users/community!:-D
'Amor mi Amiga!' -!keep it alive!- :pint:

Regards,

Gizz

[Waccoon]

The Amiga name has always been known for its widely spread piracy

Ironic, given that the Amiga had some of the strictest (and most destructive) copy protection systems ever invented.  All hail the floppy drive with no hardware error correction!  

The Amiga community is a community of pride

Was, man... was.  All the really talented people have moved on, and won't be coming back.

Let us keep prices, but let Amiga Inc. (or whoever) gather licenses from every single classic software licensee for a fixed price and then sell a BIG package of classic software (and now I mean as much classic software as possible) for free, but included in a license that comes with the buying of the AmigaOne main board.

There must be a real marketing reason for not doing this.  I'm always ticked off that there's so many good, cheap tools out there that could be bundled with an OS for next to nothing, but still Windows and MacOS don't come with all that much.

And KMOS, why not share some more info with us. I don't like a single bit about this "we are quiet" policy.

Yeah, it's not like that policy really worked for Amiga Inc.  I don't like "free" software, because the people who write it usually lack real talent and DON'T bother with uninteresting stuff like ease-of-use and documentation.  But, open software will always  be developed quicker and cheaper than closed software.

They need to stop building up to a big splash and learn to release often.  I make patches for my software almost on a weekly basis -- even if a patch fixes one or two bugs -- and all you have to do is drop the new files in place, so it's not like it's massively difficult to patch, either.

Also boosted up Amiga 500 sales.

I think history has proven that piracy isn't as harmful as companies want us to believe.  Look what VHS did to movie sales.

Pirates don't pay for software no matter what, so cracking down on piracy won't boost sales.

At this point, it's all up to us.

It's up to us once we have a platform on which to work.  If KMOS never releases DE, than we'll have to twist some arms to get a new desktop built on Linux.  It's been ten years since Commodore went under and we still have nothing but OS3.1 patches.

I'd have more enthusiasm for OS4 if Hyperion didn't screw everyone with proprietary hardware and locked firmware.  No computer company survives doing stuff like that unless they already own the market.  I cold give you plenty of horror stories about the keyed hardware I used when working in a photo lab.  No company that used keyed hardware lasted for more than a year.  Ever.

As far as I can tell: ....not even you is counting on Amiga...

Amiga Inc and KMOS have not released anything in more than four years.  How much more convincing do you need?

The Reamurgence of the amiga as a game console is probably THE best idea to revive the poor baby.

And yet, the idea of reviving the C64 as a portable game machine was met with lukewarm enthusiasm.

If you want games, the PC has plenty, and they all behave differently depending on the talent of the game designers.  Applications are very different.  I don't want more games.  I want an OS I can tinker with and program.

Let's respect their rights, 'The right to remain silent'.

Nobody pledges support for a platform that's silent.  That's most definately NOT how the Amiga became popular in the first place.

What every happened to public domain, Fred Fish, "The Scene", demos... all the cool stuff?  Today it's just stuffy business, NDA's, and, "wait and see".

I find it amazing that there are still people who still don't realize that AmigaOS (or Peg for that matter) will never be more than an obscure hobby platform on the fringe of the computer universe.

It doesn't matter if it's a hobby platform.  Linux was a hobby platform.  What matters is if the platform ever reaches critical mass, and that's the problem with OS4 and MorphOS.

For me, the future for the Amiga is with WinUAE as a retro/hobby platform for nostalgic/curious PC users who can experience the best of both worlds.

The Amiga has been dormant for over 10 years, so anything that goes into OS4 will be a mish-mash of ideas from the PC industry.  No new platform will ever be an Amiga.

Hardcore Amigans want a new machine that works like the old one.  They don't want a system that tackles modern problems that today's PCs can't resolve.  Windows security is crap.  So, is OS4 going to be better?  Nope, Java is leading the way.  Too bad.

Piracy accelerated the downfall, but did not cause it. Poor expensive hardware and the parent company's incompetence did that.

After 7 years of progress, the AGA chipset was only roughly twice as fast as the OCS chipset.  In the PC industry, CPUs got so fast that the Amiga's use of custom chips just didn't matter.

And then came 3DFX...

Nobody outside the existing Amiga community would be the slightest bit interested in a big package of classic Amiga software, except for the existing Amiga community (us!) who probably own it all already anyway.

Precicely.  I'd love a collection of old games, personally, but I'm part of that feeble market that won't be of much help.

Besides, old games are old.  I'm sure a lot of people were worried about Sony's decision to run PSX games on the PS2.  They were worried people wouldn't buy new games and would just keep playing old ones.  Instead, the plan worked amazingly well.  People buy new machines to play new games.  It was just a psychological triumph.  Nobody really plays PSX games on a PS2 -- it's just the idea that you can.

Sony makes millions of dollars PROFIT from ps2 sales

I think you're confusing actual manufacturing costs with stock rollover.

"Uh, we are quiet about that, don't want to tip off our competition."

An idea for a feature and the implementation of a feature are very different.  I seriously don't think NDAs do anything but keep lawyers well fed.

This bring me back to where Ted Turner really made his millions.

Remakes are totally awesome.  You don't have to pour millions of dollars into making a killer app when you can make mini games.  Popcap games was a surprise success, and my dad plays Freecell almost every day after he gets bored with Unreal Tournament 2004.

A C# or even VB type language could be a boon however for programming under AOS as long as it had a similar API under AOS.

I've lost all respect for BASIC since I've started working with Perl and PHP, but I do miss the quick and dirty freedom of AMOS.  If somone were to bundle a set of APIs like Allegro with an IDE like a seriously updated AMOS, that would really fly.

Don't like your software?  Write your own!  Ordinary people can pick up AMOS in minutes while Perl and even Java can drive the expert crazy sometimes.

We need a port of this, this and that from FOSS.

The problem with ports is that you port the problems.  A new platform can only survive if it introduces its own software philosophy.

Windows and Mac OS chained people to GUIs.  Unix and Linux chained people to command prompts.  The Amiga was special in that it lived comfortably with BOTH interfaces.  I liked OS/2 for the same reason -- it was the best of both worlds.

DeluxePaint and Say, thats what anybody who once owned an A500 will be looking for when testing a new Amiga.

Sounds like Oekaki.  

(Oekaki is when you draw pictures with a Java applet and post them on a forum, instead of typing messages at a keyboard.  It's horribly addictive if you have a shred of artistic talent.)

Enterprise isn't ever going to happen, nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft.

I'm TRYING to dispute that, but I have to admit that people keep buying Windows servers and Microsoft SQL, when Apache and MySQL are just so much better.  It's sad.

Simple...magazine coverage of new amiga hardware

Yeah, whatever happened to "information age?"

Miss this thread. Anyway, most of the new consoles have so much to offer. Too much, that the feeling is no longer there IMO.

An Amiga console would be a laughing stock.  But, try bringing some trademark console characteristics to the PC market.  It sickens me how few games use VSync and tear like crazy.  If your game runs at 105 FPS and your monitor syncs at 75 Hz, your games will look like crap -- because they're running TOO FAST.  People oogle at Quake 3 benchmarks, but fail to realize that the game won't sync with your monitor and that makes everything look shakey and nervous.  What's the point of a killer 3D engine if you can't see antying because the screen shears so much?

I think Ratchet and Clank blows away Painkiller on my PC, just because the motion is so damn smooth.  When will PC game companies learn?