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AuthorTopic: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4  (Read 25750 times)

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Offline Niding

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #60 on: August 04, 2017, 06:17:27 PM »
Regardless, nyteschayde's question was wether or not there is such a software emulator in existance, and the answer is yes.
Mind you, development started relativly recently, and is work in progress, so Im sure there are unreleased potential ahead as Jari continues his work.

Considering your *fangirl* reaction to the V4 news, it tells me you are lining up to get one or more of these babies. Why not just dive in and register to the Apollo forum?
There you can ask Jari directly questions or give comments regarding the FEMU.
With your background as Amigan AND software engineer, Im sure you are able formulate suggestions and questions much better than the majority of us. ;)

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=0
 

Offline madgrizzle

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #61 on: August 04, 2017, 07:08:27 PM »
My perfect Christmas present to myself.
Only Amiga *woo-woo* Makes It Possible
Only Amiga   ... Makes.. It .. Happen!
Amiga 2000, 2MB Chip RAM, OS3.9, GVP Combo 030/22 13 MB, Supra 4MB
Amiga 3000, 16 MB RAM, OS3.9, A3640 v3.2 with 060 Processor, Picasso II, A2065, PCD-50B
Dead VA2000/CX :(
 

Offline magnetic

Re: Vampire v4
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2017, 02:37:49 AM »
Quote from: ToddH;828998
Looks like the 1200 version is at the bottom of the release list, which is disappointing. A lot of A1200 users have waited patiently while A500/600/2000 owners have enjoyed their new hardware. At this rate it looks like the 1200 version won't arrive until sometime next year. :(


Do you have any idea how much work is involved in doing the a1200 version? Already the current versions still need work on software compatibility and its been years of programming!

Congrats to Vampire team on new version!
bPlan Pegasos2 G4@1ghz
Quad Boot:Reg. MorphOS | OS4.1 U4 |Ubuntu GNU-Linux | MacOS X

Amiga 2000 Rom Switcher w/ 3.1 + 1.3 | HardFrame SCSI | CBM Ram board| A Squared LIVE! 2000 | Vlab Motion | Firecracker 24 gfx

Commodore CDTV: 68010 | ECS | 9mb Ram | SCSI -TV | 3.9 Rom | Developer EPROMs
 

Offline magnetic

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2017, 02:39:54 AM »
Quote from: gregthecanuck;829054
It has an MMU, but it is an evolved design from previous chips. This has good/bad points. Bad point is it is not backwards compatible. Good point is it is a forward-looking design supporting MMU features (such as non-executable memory) that are not in previous MMU designs. Also has other bonuses that contribute to overall system performance.

Gunnar has taken a long-term view on where the design should be going forward and I agree completely with the decisions being made. I am no fanboy but this guy does know what he is doing. Some short-term pain for sure as the tools/utilities catch up with the new MMU.

The FPU side - short-term the team has recently delivered the "femu" software that allows *any* FPU-less Amiga to run programs requiring an FPU. Pretty cool. Is it as fast as a real FPU - heck no! Does it let a lot of new programs run - yes. How much of a hit the software FPU makes on performance depends a lot on the program. Also this software is very new (version 0.10 recently released) so in theory the speed could be improved going forward.

Long-term the plan is for an FPU to be there in the core. It is just a resource/priority issue (and maybe an available LE issue). At least for now there is a short-term solution.

For some people a hardware FPU is very important. I can understand that completely. For example I think Quake ran at like 2 or 3 FPS (instead of not running at all). In that case you just need to keep waiting for the feature to be implemented... only 2 more weeks... ;)

Cheers!


FPU is extremely important as is MMU for running real legacy apps. Not all of us just have amigas to play whdload and .mods! This is the main problem for me with vampire it cant really replace real accelerators for using serious applications that need MMU and /or FPU
bPlan Pegasos2 G4@1ghz
Quad Boot:Reg. MorphOS | OS4.1 U4 |Ubuntu GNU-Linux | MacOS X

Amiga 2000 Rom Switcher w/ 3.1 + 1.3 | HardFrame SCSI | CBM Ram board| A Squared LIVE! 2000 | Vlab Motion | Firecracker 24 gfx

Commodore CDTV: 68010 | ECS | 9mb Ram | SCSI -TV | 3.9 Rom | Developer EPROMs
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2017, 02:54:56 AM »
Quote from: magnetic;829108
FPU is extremely important as is MMU for running real legacy apps. Not all of us just have amigas to play whdload and .mods! This is the main problem for me with vampire it cant really replace real accelerators for using serious applications that need MMU and /or FPU


Thanks Mag,
I've been saying that for awhile, but the users focused on gaming don't seem to think its important.
One application I can think of is NetBSD, which simply won't run without an MMU (a Motorola compatible MMU, guys).
And a lot of applications make use of floating point calls.
This is not a minor issue, its a serious flaw for anyone that wants to do more than play around, and its freakin' irritating that the fanboys keep fluffing it off.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline magnetic

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #65 on: August 05, 2017, 02:57:27 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;829109
Thanks Mag,
I've been saying that for awhile, but the users focused on gaming don't seem to think its important.
One application I can think of is NetBSD, which simply won't run without an MMU (a Motorola compatible MMU, guys).
And a lot of applications make use of floating point calls.
This is not a minor issue, its a serious flaw for anyone that wants to do more than play around, and its freakin' irritating that the fanboys keep fluffing it off.


iggy most ppl here that use classics basically just use them for gaming not much else.... i have classics more for video stuff (genlocks) and music (midi) and weird gfx. So i need mmu and fpu
bPlan Pegasos2 G4@1ghz
Quad Boot:Reg. MorphOS | OS4.1 U4 |Ubuntu GNU-Linux | MacOS X

Amiga 2000 Rom Switcher w/ 3.1 + 1.3 | HardFrame SCSI | CBM Ram board| A Squared LIVE! 2000 | Vlab Motion | Firecracker 24 gfx

Commodore CDTV: 68010 | ECS | 9mb Ram | SCSI -TV | 3.9 Rom | Developer EPROMs
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #66 on: August 05, 2017, 03:08:24 AM »
Quote from: magnetic;829110
iggy most ppl here that use classics basically just use them for gaming not much else.... i have classics more for video stuff (genlocks) and music (midi) and weird gfx. So i need mmu and fpu


Yeah, I kind of gathered that when their primary basis for comparisons between  
PPC NG and the Vampire was how well each platform supported gaming software.
But I don't play a lot of games, and I never have (not even in the '90s).
And I'd actually like to get in on this, but all I get are excuses as to why I don't really need these features, or claims that they'll be implemented down the road.
And if I bring it up, people pout, as if I'm somehow being unfair.

Since when is it unfair to expect upgrade hardware to at least match the feature set of twenty year old hardware?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline QuikSanz

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #67 on: August 05, 2017, 03:12:52 AM »
I may put one in my my A2000 but my 4000T will be left alone with CS MKIII just for that reason.
 

Offline magnetic

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #68 on: August 05, 2017, 03:38:23 AM »
I wish the Vampire project got more back to the roots of the project where it was for a kick ass 68k accelerator. Now it seems they are going towards a new platform, which is cool and fun and all, and some of it looks impressive ( i saw acill's a2k running new core looks cool) but for me if you want a newish amiga platform we already have NG for that. For me its ALL about legacy compatibility thats the only reason I still run classics.

I think focus should be on compatibility and fixing bugs and not towards a whole new platform.
bPlan Pegasos2 G4@1ghz
Quad Boot:Reg. MorphOS | OS4.1 U4 |Ubuntu GNU-Linux | MacOS X

Amiga 2000 Rom Switcher w/ 3.1 + 1.3 | HardFrame SCSI | CBM Ram board| A Squared LIVE! 2000 | Vlab Motion | Firecracker 24 gfx

Commodore CDTV: 68010 | ECS | 9mb Ram | SCSI -TV | 3.9 Rom | Developer EPROMs
 

Offline PPC

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #69 on: August 05, 2017, 07:25:48 AM »
@magnetic

Actually it's both, also keep in mind that out classic Amiga's are very old and sometimes very brittle now.
So if you want a nice small new box you can go for the standalone version but if you want to have a classic yet very fast Amiga then you can go for the add-on card.

Another advantage is you can connect the V4 to a modern display with a modern way of connecting it that will be supported for years to come.
It's hard these days to find a display that has a SCART connector, or you'll have to deal with all kinds of adapters (indivision etc).

And from Gold 3 core you can also have OCS/ECS/AGA and 4 MB chip in Fast RAM.
Amiga is addictive coz it is fun to use

A1200 Elbox power tower, BPPC 040/25+603e 240 Mhz, 128 MB RAM,Bvision,Zorro IV&Zorro IV PCI busboard,X-surf,Buddha IDE
A4000 Elbox power tower,CSPPC 060/60+604e 233Mhz, 128 MB RAM,CvisonPPC, AriadneII
A600+Vampire V2,A604N+RTC,SUM USB keyboard controller,Topolino with logitech wireless keyboard&mouse
 

Offline slimf

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #70 on: August 05, 2017, 09:00:08 AM »
I think what these guys want is for developers to update their old apps to suit this new environment. Recompiling old software and modifying it so that it doesn't require an FPU is surely a good way forward.
 

Offline polyp2000

Re: Vampire v4
« Reply #71 on: August 05, 2017, 09:42:25 AM »
Quote from: LoadWB;828997
Okay, I GREATLY appreciate the work going into the Vampires.  I have a 500+v2 or v2+ of my own and it's been pretty damn awesome.  HOWEVER, why are we still sticking with IDE and not going SATA?  Or both?  Am I in the minority for my desire to use SSDs instead of CFs or even IDE DoM?

In any case, a Vampire for the 1200 will be sweet!


I imagine implementing SATA is more than just adding the right socket to the board. IDE is a much simpler design and consequently a quick win.

Im with you on this though , SATA does make sense since thats the protocol everything uses now.

As for SSD , will the Vampire make the Amiga go fast enough to keep up with one ,and are the sorts of file sizes most people will transfer large enough for it to be of benefit? Also you need to think about support for them on AmigaOS . AFAIK theres no support for TRIM .  Im thinking hybrid drive would probably be a better (and cheaper).
 
I wouldnt be suprised if SATA comes in a future iteration - but already this is better than anything we could have ever imagined !

Thanks

Nick

Offline Iggy

Re: Vampire v4
« Reply #72 on: August 05, 2017, 11:18:57 AM »
Quote from: polyp2000;829126
I imagine implementing SATA is more than just adding the right socket to the board. IDE is a much simpler design and consequently a quick win.

Im with you on this though , SATA does make sense since thats the protocol everything uses now.

As for SSD , will the Vampire make the Amiga go fast enough to keep up with one ,and are the sorts of file sizes most people will transfer large enough for it to be of benefit? Also you need to think about support for them on AmigaOS . AFAIK theres no support for TRIM .  Im thinking hybrid drive would probably be a better (and cheaper).
 
I wouldnt be suprised if SATA comes in a future iteration - but already this is better than anything we could have ever imagined !

Thanks

Nick


Well, we still have SATA to IDE converters, and you're right that the transfer speeds will be limited with either type of device.
SSDs are fairly pointless for this application, and my experience with them is that when they fail, they do so with zero warning signs (making routine backups  essential).
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #73 on: August 05, 2017, 11:27:28 AM »
Quote from: slimf;829125
I think what these guys want is for developers to update their old apps to suit this new environment. Recompiling old software and modifying it so that it doesn't require an FPU is surely a good way forward.


No, that's just ridiculous. Requiring recompilation of legacy code where the source might not be available...might as well be running on ColdFire at that point.
Look these excuses are no more than that.
And if Gunnar want to implement a superset of fpu commands for new or recompiled software, I'm all for it.

But this isn't a 'new environment', its new hardware designed for old code.
If the OS required an fpu, would the development team still be dragging their heels on it or suggesting recompilation?

Is there some problem the developers aren't letting us onto?
Like maybe they've had difficulty creating a functional floating point component?
I know they claim to have something, but that so far is just a claim.

And compatibility is important, if you're talking legacy applications.
Otherwise, why wouldn't you move to NG?
Its certainly faster.

We see full support for register level video and sound compatibility.
Is there something wrong with Motorola's designs for the cpu that the rest of us aren't aware of?
Because the 'we have a better way' argument isn't proving out.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline IanP

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #74 on: August 05, 2017, 01:04:12 PM »
No need to recompile old apps for no FPU, just use Femu for now or wait for FPU on the V4.