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AuthorTopic: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4  (Read 25786 times)

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2017, 08:26:18 AM »
The V4 standalone looks like a fantastic hobby computer. This is exactly what I was suggesting when I posted negatively about the useless PPCLinux laptop idea.

I can't wait to see what the pricing structure is like :)

Offline IanP

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2017, 10:03:35 AM »
Quote from: Methanoid;829058
I wonder if the standalone will also run other FPGA cores like MIST does... Atari ST might be fun to do as well as Amiga
I doubt the V4 will ever have a core selection with loads of retro computer/console/arcade cores to choose from.

Whether it will ever come with other system cores or only "emulation" like EmuTOS I don't know. If BigGun ever runs out of Amiga things to do he may find the time and will to do the Atari ST hardware implementation.
 

Offline IanP

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2017, 10:09:46 AM »
Quote from: nyteschayde;829056
Are there any old software FPUs that the Vampire could run? Something to simply emulate one or tell the OS and other software there is one even if the ops are slower than potential hardware?
I assume you aren't being sarcastic and genuinely missed the beta release of Femu recently. It's a brand new software FPU emulation including a version optimised for the Vampire (Apollo 68080 core).
 

Offline Niding

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2017, 11:03:16 AM »
IanP, based on what Ive read from nyteschayde, she is always polite and not trolling ever, but most likely havent followed Apollo forum (or other forums) as close as some of us :)

The developer of the FEMU posted this a week ago;

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=7442&z=ipmwt8

Additionally the youtube is now seeing more and more demostrations of Vampire users testing the FEMU on their machines, in addition to others that is using FEMU via WINUAE, disabling the FPU emulation, and running FEMU instead.

Anyhow; youtubes from Simo, with Vampire+FEMU;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqFwz8Uqa74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2QUyAk6wZw

And Manuel Jesus running Lightwave 5.0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AyAfi_P58U

Pedro Cotter has gotten Amikit X to run on it;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POi7VbJogJc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSHYfgXSUw0
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2017, 11:45:54 AM »
Quote from: bloodline;829059
The V4 standalone looks like a fantastic hobby computer. This is exactly what I was suggesting when I posted negatively about the useless PPCLinux laptop idea.

I can't wait to see what the pricing structure is like :)


Yes, because a device that can run some legacy software has a relationship to a much more modern device that could actually run a modern Linux distro, right?
You opinions are duly noted and dismissed.

You really need to spend less time with that sock, and more time in the real world.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2017, 12:02:54 PM »
Quote from: gregthecanuck;829054
It has an MMU, but it is an evolved design from previous chips. This has good/bad points. Bad point is it is not backwards compatible. Good point is it is a forward-looking design supporting MMU features (such as non-executable memory) that are not in previous MMU designs. Also has other bonuses that contribute to overall system performance.

Gunnar has taken a long-term view on where the design should be going forward and I agree completely with the decisions being made. I am no fanboy but this guy does know what he is doing. Some short-term pain for sure as the tools/utilities catch up with the new MMU.

The FPU side - short-term the team has recently delivered the "femu" software that allows *any* FPU-less Amiga to run programs requiring an FPU. Pretty cool. Is it as fast as a real FPU - heck no! Does it let a lot of new programs run - yes. How much of a hit the software FPU makes on performance depends a lot on the program. Also this software is very new (version 0.10 recently released) so in theory the speed could be improved going forward.

Long-term the plan is for an FPU to be there in the core. It is just a resource/priority issue (and maybe an available LE issue). At least for now there is a short-term solution.

For some people a hardware FPU is very important. I can understand that completely. For example I think Quake ran at like 2 or 3 FPS (instead of not running at all). In that case you just need to keep waiting for the feature to be implemented... only 2 more weeks... ;)

Cheers!

Well, yes Greg, you are a fanboy.
And the new device has capacity to spare, so where is the f'ing fpu?

As far as 'completely agreeing' with Gunnar, see comment one.

On another posters comment about the Atari ST, you guys are aware that an Apollo core has been run on a Vampire installed in one of those, right?
It would be a waste of Gunnar's time and energy to develop a core specifically for that kind of a downgrade.
If you want a stanalone fpga AtariST, buy a MiST board (or a ColdFire based Firebee).
But then, this isn't an Atari forum, so...

Finally, more than a few of you are likely to be rubbed the wrong way by my post. If so, that's a good thing, as I feel its part of my obligation to counter the occasional really stupid comment.
Like Bloodline's slight of the PPC laptop project I'm an advocate of that has NO relationship to this project what so ever (neither is a substitute for the other, and they are in no way competing devices, so its just plain dumb to go there).

I am glad to see the Apollo core and the Vampire project evolving.
It has a great deal of potential, and I'd like to experiment with the standard Apollo core in applications outside of the Amiga.
One constraint I've run into is that the Vampire is not easily adapted to the processor socket used in an Atari MegaST.
That cpu could give the MegaST a boost above TT performance levels.

Anyway, as I've mentioned before, I'm a big 68K fans, and not necessarily limited to just Amiga (because frankly, you guys get more than a little weird when it comes to your platform).
So...this development is great news, and a credit to Gunnar and the rest of the developers.

It took an idiotically long time to get here, but lets face it, this new device is pretty much a Natami.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline agami

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Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2017, 01:11:35 PM »
Yes please.
I'll have 2 x V4 standalone and 2 x V4 1200.
---------------AGA Collection---------------
1) Amiga A4000 040 40MHz, Mediator PCI, Voodoo 3 3000, Creative PCI128, Fast Ethernet, Indivision AGA Mk2 CR, DVD/CD-RW, OS 3.9 BB2
2) Amiga A1200 040 25MHz, Indivision AGA Mk2 CR, IDEfix, PCMCIA WiFi, slim slot load DVD/CD-RW, OS 3.9 BB2
3) Amiga CD32 + SX1, OS 3.1
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Vampire v4
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2017, 01:45:21 PM »
Quote from: LoadWB;829026
Right, and like I said they're bulk and a PITA but I also acquiesced over the issue.


All the drives in my PowerMacs that aren't directly connected to an SATA controller have one of these attached.
After all, why would you want to have to deal with the expense and lower capacity/features inherent with PATA devices?
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline darksun9210

Re: Vampire v4
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2017, 01:54:06 PM »
i'll take 3 Vampire4's for my 1200's
and probably another 2 to replace my existing vamps!

erk! this is getting expensive! :lol:

A500 Vampire2/minimegachip/lazarus/indyECS, (+GVP A530,SupraTurbo28,GVP HD8)
A600 Vampire2/604n/subway/IndyECS, (+ACA630)
A1200 Vampire2/IndyAGA, (+Bliz030+scsi)
A1200 Bliz040+scsi/subway/indyAGA
A1200 BlizPPCscsi/Bvision/subway
A3k CSmk3-060/CV64-3D/Xsurf100+RRoadUSB/Zoram256/acard scsi-ide-CF/IndyECS,
A4k C=040/CV64-3D/Xsurf100+RRoadUSB/Bigram256/IndyAGA, (also mediator+pci cards)
CD32 TF330/IndyAGA
Plus an SGI O2 & consoles.
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Vampire v4
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2017, 02:19:47 PM »
Quote from: darksun9210;829070
i'll take 3 Vampire4's for my 1200's
and probably another 2 to replace my existing vamps!

erk! this is getting expensive! :lol:

Compared to what?
Could be worse, you could be coughing up the funds for a legacy '060/PPC card.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline darksun9210

Re: Vampire v4
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2017, 02:23:11 PM »
hmmm, that's not a bad call. trouble is, with kit like this out in the wild, if I try to unload my existing kit in order to fund this, who's going to want it? :D

A500 Vampire2/minimegachip/lazarus/indyECS, (+GVP A530,SupraTurbo28,GVP HD8)
A600 Vampire2/604n/subway/IndyECS, (+ACA630)
A1200 Vampire2/IndyAGA, (+Bliz030+scsi)
A1200 Bliz040+scsi/subway/indyAGA
A1200 BlizPPCscsi/Bvision/subway
A3k CSmk3-060/CV64-3D/Xsurf100+RRoadUSB/Zoram256/acard scsi-ide-CF/IndyECS,
A4k C=040/CV64-3D/Xsurf100+RRoadUSB/Bigram256/IndyAGA, (also mediator+pci cards)
CD32 TF330/IndyAGA
Plus an SGI O2 & consoles.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2017, 02:25:08 PM »
Quote from: nyteschayde;829056
Are there any old software FPUs that the Vampire could run? Something to simply emulate one or tell the OS and other software there is one even if the ops are slower than potential hardware?

Well, no, is the short answer, although that has always been a possible upgrade for vampires and is a goal for the firmware flash upgrades.
 
 The long answer is "kind of" in that you can get replacement libraries for maths functions which run faster than standard ones, but they don't actually show up as a real FPU so software specifically written for 881/882/040 FPUs still doesn't work with a custom maths library.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 6, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline darksun9210

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2017, 03:07:31 PM »
@Pat the Cat
you know about femu right? FPU emulator?
http://forum.apollo-accelerators.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1797

its not the fastest, but it allows a lot of FPU software to work without an FPU being present.
IIRC there are ec040, ec060 and vampire binary's.

i'm still figuring all this out myself, so i'm not going to pretend to have all the answers. I have seen it report as having a live FPU in "whichamiga" though after running the executable - and no FPU in "whichamiga" prior to running the exe in a yoochoob video

A500 Vampire2/minimegachip/lazarus/indyECS, (+GVP A530,SupraTurbo28,GVP HD8)
A600 Vampire2/604n/subway/IndyECS, (+ACA630)
A1200 Vampire2/IndyAGA, (+Bliz030+scsi)
A1200 Bliz040+scsi/subway/indyAGA
A1200 BlizPPCscsi/Bvision/subway
A3k CSmk3-060/CV64-3D/Xsurf100+RRoadUSB/Zoram256/acard scsi-ide-CF/IndyECS,
A4k C=040/CV64-3D/Xsurf100+RRoadUSB/Bigram256/IndyAGA, (also mediator+pci cards)
CD32 TF330/IndyAGA
Plus an SGI O2 & consoles.
 

Offline Pat the Cat

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2017, 04:37:41 PM »
Quote from: darksun9210;829077
@Pat the Cat
you know about femu right? FPU emulator?
http://forum.apollo-accelerators.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1797

Not exactly "knew". I am aware that FPU support is pencilled in for Vampires but isn't functional currently. EDIT <- Released a week ago, so probably not 100% yet.

Now, to be totally honest, having studied the chips involved, and knowing some of the maths theory, it's a horrible thing to get right.

There is no point in having an inaccurate and untested FPU support. Worse than no support.

Plus, double precision 80 bit is what the hardware could deliver, which is not terribly easy to do even on a current processor. My understanding is, it's one of the key differences between Centrino "budget" processors and real Intel Pentiums...

Note the "My Understanding", this is something I would very much like to see, but I cannot pretend that it is at all easy to implement.
"To recurse is human. To iterate, divine."

A1200, Vanilla, Surf Squirrel, SD Card, KS 3.0/3.z, PCMCIA dev
A500, Vanilla, A570, Rev 6, KS 1.2/1.3 Testbench system
Rasp Pi, UAE4ARM, 3D laser scanner, experimental, hoping for AmigaOS4Arm, based on Watterott Fabscan Pi
 

Offline Iggy

Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
« Reply #59 on: August 04, 2017, 05:20:15 PM »
Quote from: darksun9210;829077
@Pat the Cat
you know about femu right? FPU emulator?
http://forum.apollo-accelerators.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1797

its not the fastest, but it allows a lot of FPU software to work without an FPU being present.
IIRC there are ec040, ec060 and vampire binary's.

i'm still figuring all this out myself, so i'm not going to pretend to have all the answers. I have seen it report as having a live FPU in "whichamiga" though after running the executable - and no FPU in "whichamiga" prior to running the exe in a yoochoob video

I never considered this as a solution for an EC based system. Interesting idea. The EC '060s are great over clockers running anywhere between 75 and 100 MHz, so this might be useful beyond Vampire applications.
Most people aren't aware of the fact that the mythical 'FE133' '060 CPUs coming out of China are merely later mask EC or LC CPUs that have been relabeled.
Freescale was emphatic with me when I inquired about those ID numbers, they are NOT Freescale part numbers.

But the availability of cheap EC '060s, when combined with this floating point package, could allow for some interesting dirt cheap accelerators.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"