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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga Hardware News => Topic started by: TuKo on August 03, 2017, 03:46:46 PM

Title: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TuKo on August 03, 2017, 03:46:46 PM
After the big success of the Vampire 600 V2 and Vampire 500 V2+, Apollo Team is proud to announce their next generation FPGA device: the Vampire V4.

The Vampire V4 is made with a standard “one design to fit them all” and comes in three flavors depending on customer need:




This new Vampire V4 packs many upgraded specifications and brings Amiga Classic systems to another new performance paradigm thanks to its new Altera Cyclone 5 A5 FPGA and fast DDR3 memory.

The Vampire V4 standalone system will be a complete new Amiga system powered by the 68080 CPU core and the complete SAGA chipset (AGA compatible).

Vampire V4 is powered by:



And supports:





Certification: Vampire V4 is CE, WEEE and RoHS compliant

(http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/images/v4.jpg)

PCB is populated by:
1.   IO Header #1
2.   IO Header #2
3.   IO Header #3
4.   Ethernet
5.   USB
6.   USB
7.   DB9 (standalone only)
8.   DB9 (standalone only)
9.   FastIDE 40-pin
10.   FastIDE 44-pin
11.   FPGA
12.   Digital Video Amplifier
13.   Digital Video Output
14.   DDR3 RAM
15.   JTAG Header
16.   MicroSD slot
17.   MicroUSB Power (standalone only)

All other details are documented in this PDF (http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/files/V4_announcement_v1_5.pdf).

Apollo Team wishes you a GREAT summer :-)
Title: Vampire v4
Post by: digiflip on August 03, 2017, 04:12:45 PM
http://forum.apollo-accelerators.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1804
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: LoadWB on August 03, 2017, 04:36:16 PM
Okay, I GREATLY appreciate the work going into the Vampires.  I have a 500+v2 or v2+ of my own and it's been pretty damn awesome.  HOWEVER, why are we still sticking with IDE and not going SATA?  Or both?  Am I in the minority for my desire to use SSDs instead of CFs or even IDE DoM?

In any case, a Vampire for the 1200 will be sweet!
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: ToddH on August 03, 2017, 04:46:50 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;828997
In any case, a Vampire for the 1200 will be sweet!

Looks like the 1200 version is at the bottom of the release list, which is disappointing. A lot of A1200 users have waited patiently while A500/600/2000 owners have enjoyed their new hardware. At this rate it looks like the 1200 version won't arrive until sometime next year. :(
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: IanP on August 03, 2017, 04:48:40 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;828997
Okay, I GREATLY appreciate the work going into the Vampires.  I have a 500+v2 or v2+ of my own and it's been pretty damn awesome.  HOWEVER, why are we still sticking with IDE and not going SATA?  Or both?  Am I in the minority for my desire to use SSDs instead of CFs or even IDE DoM?

In any case, a Vampire for the 1200 will be sweet!
Possibly because of operating system limitations, unless you use a SATA to PATA chip in which case the end user may as well buy a third party converter interface.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Hattig on August 03, 2017, 04:50:14 PM
TBH I think I'd just get the standalone unless you really wanted to keep the Amiga keyboard and case going...
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Niding on August 03, 2017, 04:55:51 PM
Personally Im leaning towards keeping my A1200 as it is now, and rather go for the standalone.

Whenever the A1200 dies for good, the standalone will keep going since its made out of new components.

I got the V600 cause the standalone wasnt available for purchase last year, and Im sure alot of us did the same calculation. If standalone was available back then, I would probably never had gotten the V600 at all.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: David Wright on August 03, 2017, 05:18:56 PM
Are there cases that fit this like the PI cases?
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: LoadWB on August 03, 2017, 05:21:37 PM
Quote from: IanP;828999
Possibly because of operating system limitations, unless you use a SATA to PATA chip in which case the end user may as well buy a third party converter interface.

Right, they exist and I've been successful in using them, but at least integrating such a chip into the board would take up less space than a converter.

Meh, I've been kvetching about SATA for a number of years and I don't think I'll see it any time soon in "classic" hardware.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: amigakit on August 03, 2017, 06:05:24 PM
Very exciting news!
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Pat the Cat on August 03, 2017, 06:23:05 PM
Quote from: Niding;829001
Whenever the A1200 dies for good, the standalone will keep going since its made out of new components.


Somewhat ironic as back in the early 90s, CBM were full of "SMD will last longer than existing Amigas, it is superior to through hole manufacturing".

Turns out, they were full of garbage saying that. Earlier Amigas are far less susceptible to leaky capacitors.

Longevity is a c-r-a-pshoot when it comes to technology (random dice throw if you don't understand the term).

Quote from: David Wright;829005
Are there cases that fit this like the PI cases?

Nothing that can't be designed in advance and tweaked for perfect fit when examples are available to test with.

Expect them, but probably not good idea to manufacture them in advance - limits any final changes to the board design.
 
 
Quote
Apollo Team is proud to announce their next generation FPGA device: the Vampire V4.
 
 Whoopee! Good news! :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 03, 2017, 06:47:28 PM
Nice!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TheMagicM on August 03, 2017, 07:03:07 PM
Hmm..I've never considered a standalone system until now.   There would be almost no point of keeping my A1200.   Now I'm on the fence of even considering an A1200 Vampire.  Sounds like the standalone is for me.   I wonder what the price will be for that one.  

Very exciting news!!!

EDIT: just for the heck of it, sent them an email to put me down for the standalone, deposit available when the time comes.  :-)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on August 03, 2017, 07:22:16 PM
Be interested to hear some compatibility figures in regards to classic software.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 03, 2017, 07:31:10 PM
It would be nice to know if the core used in this will have an mmu and an fpu.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Iggy on August 03, 2017, 07:32:24 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;828997
Okay, I GREATLY appreciate the work going into the Vampires.  I have a 500+v2 or v2+ of my own and it's been pretty damn awesome.  HOWEVER, why are we still sticking with IDE and not going SATA?  Or both?  Am I in the minority for my desire to use SSDs instead of CFs or even IDE DoM?

In any case, a Vampire for the 1200 will be sweet!


IDE to SATA adapters exist.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Faerytale on August 03, 2017, 07:39:57 PM
Fantastic news! Instabuy!!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: IanP on August 03, 2017, 07:44:21 PM
Apollo Core already includes a special MMU, as far as I know there are no plans for a Motorola compatible MMU. As for hardware FPU I don't know, it may or may not eventually have one so if that's a deal breaker either wait and see or stick with Motorola hardware.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 03, 2017, 07:49:11 PM
Quote from: TheMagicM;829017
Hmm..I've never considered a standalone system until now.   There would be almost no point of keeping my A1200.   Now I'm on the fence of even considering an A1200 Vampire.  Sounds like the standalone is for me.   I wonder what the price will be for that one.  

Very exciting news!!!

EDIT: just for the heck of it, sent them an email to put me down for the standalone, deposit available when the time comes.  :-)


If you read the attached PDF, they will be selling the Vampires thru established vendors, which is listed in said PDF.

Yeah, I know NovaCoder said he wasnt intrested in Vampire for legacy hardware. A standalone would bring him back to the fold. Hope that still holds true!
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: LoadWB on August 03, 2017, 08:26:45 PM
Quote from: Iggy;829022
IDE to SATA adapters exist.


Right, and like I said they're bulk and a PITA but I also acquiesced over the issue.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: ToddH on August 03, 2017, 08:41:38 PM
I wonder if the standalone would fit in the new A1200.net cases. I have a black Apollo Special Edition case coming with my black keycaps. Add a keyrah and I might just switch to the standalone.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: yssing on August 03, 2017, 09:21:51 PM
Wow! This is awesome
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on August 03, 2017, 09:49:48 PM
Quote from: ToddH;829027
I wonder if

I wonder if we can get a mod to merge the three separate threads we already have for this new hardware, before it becomes as bad as all of the "Amiga running the school HVAC system" threads?


:hammer::hammer::hammer::laughing:  :laughing:  :laughing:
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: eliyahu on August 03, 2017, 10:56:25 PM
@Oldsmobile_Mike

threads merged. enjoy. :)

-- eliyahu
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Matt_H on August 03, 2017, 11:28:37 PM
Wow! This looks incredible. With the standalone option, it looks like we'll finally have the equivalent of NATAMI...

Tough choices. Do I want an accelerator or do I want to build a new system out of the standalone unit? ;)

EDIT: I hope someone builds some fun desktop cases for these. A mini A4000 would be nice... 5.25" bay for an optical drive for CD32 emulation... 3.5" bay for backing up floppies...
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 04, 2017, 12:47:06 AM
Quote from: Matt_H;829035
Wow! This looks incredible. With the standalone option, it looks like we'll finally have the equivalent of NATAMI...

Tough choices. Do I want an accelerator or do I want to build a new system out of the standalone unit? ;)

EDIT: I hope someone builds some fun desktop cases for these. A mini A4000 would be nice... 5.25" bay for an optical drive for CD32 emulation... 3.5" bay for backing up floppies...


That's a good idea but, how to drive the floppy?
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on August 04, 2017, 12:50:43 AM
Quote from: QuikSanz;829036
That's a good idea but, how to drive the floppy?

It's 2017, people need to let the floppy go.  :laughing:
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 04, 2017, 12:54:14 AM
I sure hope they make more A2000 Expansion slot adapters!
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 04, 2017, 01:10:54 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;829037
It's 2017, people need to let the floppy go.  :laughing:


Guess the stand alone is not for me then. I still have a boatload of floppies not backed up.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 04, 2017, 01:24:14 AM
Quote from: IanP;829024
Apollo Core already includes a special MMU, as far as I know there are no plans for a Motorola compatible MMU. As for hardware FPU I don't know, it may or may not eventually have one so if that's a deal breaker either wait and see or stick with Motorola hardware.


'Special' MMU, sound SO useful.
And yes, the lack of floating point functions is a deal breaker (for that matter, no matter how 'special' the MMU is, if it isn't Motorola standard there is software I want to run that isn't compatible).

So, as before, unless all you want to do with your Amiga is play games, you're out of luck.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 04, 2017, 01:29:35 AM
Before people jump off a bridge due to the FPU/MMU issue, there is always the chance there will be library support for missing compability.

But in true Amiga tradition, we go nuts instead.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: jdryyz on August 04, 2017, 01:42:39 AM
Quote from: Niding;829041
Before people jump off a bridge due to the FPU/MMU issue, there is always the chance there will be library support for missing compability.

But in true Amiga tradition, we go nuts instead.

:rofl:
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Matt_H on August 04, 2017, 01:47:15 AM
Quote from: QuikSanz;829036
That's a good idea but, how to drive the floppy?


Er, good question. Can those I/O ports do the trick? Hang a Catweasel off the IDE port? Hang a Kyroflux off a USB port? (are there Amiga drivers for it?)

Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;829037
It's 2017, people need to let the floppy go.  :laughing:


Some might say the same about the Amiga :)
While it's true there is no use for floppies in day-to-day use, it would be good to have the option for onboard imaging of disks.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: LoadWB on August 04, 2017, 02:30:12 AM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;829037
It's 2017, people need to let the floppy go.  :laughing:

Pry it from my cold dead hands, Muchacho.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 04, 2017, 02:35:21 AM
Quote from: LoadWB;829044
Pry it from my cold dead hands, Muchacho.


In true Charlton Heston fashion, love it!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 04, 2017, 02:39:41 AM
Quote from: Niding;829041
Before people jump off a bridge due to the FPU/MMU issue, there is always the chance there will be library support for missing compability.

But in true Amiga tradition, we go nuts instead.


No, the Amiga tradition is making excuses for persistent flaws in hardware and software and fawning over said flawed products like infantile schoolboys with a crush. :hammer:

But, if all you're doing is playing games, hey you're all set (except for the few games that need an fpu).  :laugh1:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: midway on August 04, 2017, 03:22:01 AM
Sounds cool. I will keep my tekmagic though:roflmao:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 04, 2017, 03:34:05 AM
Quote from: midway;829047
Sounds cool. I will keep my tekmagic though:roflmao:


Wish I still had my 2060 but with all this I may just keep my A2000 an 030/40 for games and use the A4000T CS MKIII w/CV64 3D for heavy stuff. Have heavy expansion for both anyway, just need Indys.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Crom00 on August 04, 2017, 03:50:47 AM
The new FPGA in V4 has more space for things like AGA RTG and FPU and is one of the best in it's Cyclone version 5 class. It's able to run the ram at very fast speeds.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 04, 2017, 04:18:52 AM
Quote from: Crom00;829050
The new FPGA in V4 has more space for things like AGA RTG and FPU and is one of the best in it's Cyclone version 5 class. It's able to run the ram at very fast speeds.


Put a real MMU & FPU in it and I'll get one. Otherwise I pretty much have it all already covered.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: nyteschayde on August 04, 2017, 04:22:21 AM
YES!!! I can't wait **fangirl scream**
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: gregthecanuck on August 04, 2017, 05:57:55 AM
Quote from: QuikSanz;829051
Put a real MMU & FPU in it and I'll get one. Otherwise I pretty much have it all already covered.


It has an MMU, but it is an evolved design from previous chips. This has good/bad points. Bad point is it is not backwards compatible. Good point is it is a forward-looking design supporting MMU features (such as non-executable memory) that are not in previous MMU designs. Also has other bonuses that contribute to overall system performance.

Gunnar has taken a long-term view on where the design should be going forward and I agree completely with the decisions being made. I am no fanboy but this guy does know what he is doing. Some short-term pain for sure as the tools/utilities catch up with the new MMU.

The FPU side - short-term the team has recently delivered the "femu" software that allows *any* FPU-less Amiga to run programs requiring an FPU. Pretty cool. Is it as fast as a real FPU - heck no! Does it let a lot of new programs run - yes. How much of a hit the software FPU makes on performance depends a lot on the program. Also this software is very new (version 0.10 recently released) so in theory the speed could be improved going forward.

Long-term the plan is for an FPU to be there in the core. It is just a resource/priority issue (and maybe an available LE issue). At least for now there is a short-term solution.

For some people a hardware FPU is very important. I can understand that completely. For example I think Quake ran at like 2 or 3 FPS (instead of not running at all). In that case you just need to keep waiting for the feature to be implemented... only 2 more weeks... ;)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Motormouth on August 04, 2017, 06:15:19 AM
This is great news.  Also it is an indication of actual financial success of  an actual amiga product!!!!!

A couple thoughts/comments

1)
I just got my Vampire 500 V2+  just over a month ago.   Very fast!
My A2000 has become my primary amiga machine, (over an 040 A4000 and A3000s)

2)
mmmmm an A500/A2000 etc version or standalone.  very hard decision?

3)
What about a3000 and/or a4000 version?

4)
I know the FPU thing keeps coming up, but it is some fast that the vampire is still 50%-100% of the speed of a 25 mhz 68882 or 25 mhz 040 fpu unit in floating point calculating using brute force integer.
My biggest problem on not having FPU to more of an issue with installing software.  installers detect an 040 or 060 and assume an FPU.  Sometimes you need to install the 020 version.  This in not horrible (but I majorly crashed my A2000 twice where I had fall back to older backups)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: nyteschayde on August 04, 2017, 06:45:59 AM
Are there any old software FPUs that the Vampire could run? Something to simply emulate one or tell the OS and other software there is one even if the ops are slower than potential hardware?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Methanoid on August 04, 2017, 08:11:04 AM
I wonder if the standalone will also run other FPGA cores like MIST does... Atari ST might be fun to do as well as Amiga
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: bloodline on August 04, 2017, 08:26:18 AM
The V4 standalone looks like a fantastic hobby computer. This is exactly what I was suggesting when I posted negatively about the useless PPCLinux laptop idea.

I can't wait to see what the pricing structure is like :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: IanP on August 04, 2017, 10:03:35 AM
Quote from: Methanoid;829058
I wonder if the standalone will also run other FPGA cores like MIST does... Atari ST might be fun to do as well as Amiga
I doubt the V4 will ever have a core selection with loads of retro computer/console/arcade cores to choose from.

Whether it will ever come with other system cores or only "emulation" like EmuTOS I don't know. If BigGun ever runs out of Amiga things to do he may find the time and will to do the Atari ST hardware implementation.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: IanP on August 04, 2017, 10:09:46 AM
Quote from: nyteschayde;829056
Are there any old software FPUs that the Vampire could run? Something to simply emulate one or tell the OS and other software there is one even if the ops are slower than potential hardware?
I assume you aren't being sarcastic and genuinely missed the beta release of Femu recently. It's a brand new software FPU emulation including a version optimised for the Vampire (Apollo 68080 core).
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 04, 2017, 11:03:16 AM
IanP, based on what Ive read from nyteschayde, she is always polite and not trolling ever, but most likely havent followed Apollo forum (or other forums) as close as some of us :)

The developer of the FEMU posted this a week ago;

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=7442&z=ipmwt8

Additionally the youtube is now seeing more and more demostrations of Vampire users testing the FEMU on their machines, in addition to others that is using FEMU via WINUAE, disabling the FPU emulation, and running FEMU instead.

Anyhow; youtubes from Simo, with Vampire+FEMU;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqFwz8Uqa74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2QUyAk6wZw

And Manuel Jesus running Lightwave 5.0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AyAfi_P58U

Pedro Cotter has gotten Amikit X to run on it;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POi7VbJogJc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSHYfgXSUw0
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 04, 2017, 11:45:54 AM
Quote from: bloodline;829059
The V4 standalone looks like a fantastic hobby computer. This is exactly what I was suggesting when I posted negatively about the useless PPCLinux laptop idea.

I can't wait to see what the pricing structure is like :)


Yes, because a device that can run some legacy software has a relationship to a much more modern device that could actually run a modern Linux distro, right?
You opinions are duly noted and dismissed.

You really need to spend less time with that sock, and more time in the real world.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 04, 2017, 12:02:54 PM
Quote from: gregthecanuck;829054
It has an MMU, but it is an evolved design from previous chips. This has good/bad points. Bad point is it is not backwards compatible. Good point is it is a forward-looking design supporting MMU features (such as non-executable memory) that are not in previous MMU designs. Also has other bonuses that contribute to overall system performance.

Gunnar has taken a long-term view on where the design should be going forward and I agree completely with the decisions being made. I am no fanboy but this guy does know what he is doing. Some short-term pain for sure as the tools/utilities catch up with the new MMU.

The FPU side - short-term the team has recently delivered the "femu" software that allows *any* FPU-less Amiga to run programs requiring an FPU. Pretty cool. Is it as fast as a real FPU - heck no! Does it let a lot of new programs run - yes. How much of a hit the software FPU makes on performance depends a lot on the program. Also this software is very new (version 0.10 recently released) so in theory the speed could be improved going forward.

Long-term the plan is for an FPU to be there in the core. It is just a resource/priority issue (and maybe an available LE issue). At least for now there is a short-term solution.

For some people a hardware FPU is very important. I can understand that completely. For example I think Quake ran at like 2 or 3 FPS (instead of not running at all). In that case you just need to keep waiting for the feature to be implemented... only 2 more weeks... ;)

Cheers!

Well, yes Greg, you are a fanboy.
And the new device has capacity to spare, so where is the f'ing fpu?

As far as 'completely agreeing' with Gunnar, see comment one.

On another posters comment about the Atari ST, you guys are aware that an Apollo core has been run on a Vampire installed in one of those, right?
It would be a waste of Gunnar's time and energy to develop a core specifically for that kind of a downgrade.
If you want a stanalone fpga AtariST, buy a MiST board (or a ColdFire based Firebee).
But then, this isn't an Atari forum, so...

Finally, more than a few of you are likely to be rubbed the wrong way by my post. If so, that's a good thing, as I feel its part of my obligation to counter the occasional really stupid comment.
Like Bloodline's slight of the PPC laptop project I'm an advocate of that has NO relationship to this project what so ever (neither is a substitute for the other, and they are in no way competing devices, so its just plain dumb to go there).

I am glad to see the Apollo core and the Vampire project evolving.
It has a great deal of potential, and I'd like to experiment with the standard Apollo core in applications outside of the Amiga.
One constraint I've run into is that the Vampire is not easily adapted to the processor socket used in an Atari MegaST.
That cpu could give the MegaST a boost above TT performance levels.

Anyway, as I've mentioned before, I'm a big 68K fans, and not necessarily limited to just Amiga (because frankly, you guys get more than a little weird when it comes to your platform).
So...this development is great news, and a credit to Gunnar and the rest of the developers.

It took an idiotically long time to get here, but lets face it, this new device is pretty much a Natami.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: agami on August 04, 2017, 01:11:35 PM
Yes please.
I'll have 2 x V4 standalone and 2 x V4 1200.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Iggy on August 04, 2017, 01:45:21 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;829026
Right, and like I said they're bulk and a PITA but I also acquiesced over the issue.


All the drives in my PowerMacs that aren't directly connected to an SATA controller have one of these attached.
After all, why would you want to have to deal with the expense and lower capacity/features inherent with PATA devices?
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: darksun9210 on August 04, 2017, 01:54:06 PM
i'll take 3 Vampire4's for my 1200's
and probably another 2 to replace my existing vamps!

erk! this is getting expensive! :lol:
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Iggy on August 04, 2017, 02:19:47 PM
Quote from: darksun9210;829070
i'll take 3 Vampire4's for my 1200's
and probably another 2 to replace my existing vamps!

erk! this is getting expensive! :lol:

Compared to what?
Could be worse, you could be coughing up the funds for a legacy '060/PPC card.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: darksun9210 on August 04, 2017, 02:23:11 PM
hmmm, that's not a bad call. trouble is, with kit like this out in the wild, if I try to unload my existing kit in order to fund this, who's going to want it? :D
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Pat the Cat on August 04, 2017, 02:25:08 PM
Quote from: nyteschayde;829056
Are there any old software FPUs that the Vampire could run? Something to simply emulate one or tell the OS and other software there is one even if the ops are slower than potential hardware?

Well, no, is the short answer, although that has always been a possible upgrade for vampires and is a goal for the firmware flash upgrades.
 
 The long answer is "kind of" in that you can get replacement libraries for maths functions which run faster than standard ones, but they don't actually show up as a real FPU so software specifically written for 881/882/040 FPUs still doesn't work with a custom maths library.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: darksun9210 on August 04, 2017, 03:07:31 PM
@Pat the Cat
you know about femu right? FPU emulator?
http://forum.apollo-accelerators.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1797

its not the fastest, but it allows a lot of FPU software to work without an FPU being present.
IIRC there are ec040, ec060 and vampire binary's.

i'm still figuring all this out myself, so i'm not going to pretend to have all the answers. I have seen it report as having a live FPU in "whichamiga" though after running the executable - and no FPU in "whichamiga" prior to running the exe in a yoochoob video
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Pat the Cat on August 04, 2017, 04:37:41 PM
Quote from: darksun9210;829077
@Pat the Cat
you know about femu right? FPU emulator?
http://forum.apollo-accelerators.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1797

Not exactly "knew". I am aware that FPU support is pencilled in for Vampires but isn't functional currently. EDIT <- Released a week ago, so probably not 100% yet.

Now, to be totally honest, having studied the chips involved, and knowing some of the maths theory, it's a horrible thing to get right.

There is no point in having an inaccurate and untested FPU support. Worse than no support.

Plus, double precision 80 bit is what the hardware could deliver, which is not terribly easy to do even on a current processor. My understanding is, it's one of the key differences between Centrino "budget" processors and real Intel Pentiums...

Note the "My Understanding", this is something I would very much like to see, but I cannot pretend that it is at all easy to implement.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 04, 2017, 05:20:15 PM
Quote from: darksun9210;829077
@Pat the Cat
you know about femu right? FPU emulator?
http://forum.apollo-accelerators.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1797

its not the fastest, but it allows a lot of FPU software to work without an FPU being present.
IIRC there are ec040, ec060 and vampire binary's.

i'm still figuring all this out myself, so i'm not going to pretend to have all the answers. I have seen it report as having a live FPU in "whichamiga" though after running the executable - and no FPU in "whichamiga" prior to running the exe in a yoochoob video

I never considered this as a solution for an EC based system. Interesting idea. The EC '060s are great over clockers running anywhere between 75 and 100 MHz, so this might be useful beyond Vampire applications.
Most people aren't aware of the fact that the mythical 'FE133' '060 CPUs coming out of China are merely later mask EC or LC CPUs that have been relabeled.
Freescale was emphatic with me when I inquired about those ID numbers, they are NOT Freescale part numbers.

But the availability of cheap EC '060s, when combined with this floating point package, could allow for some interesting dirt cheap accelerators.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 04, 2017, 06:17:27 PM
Regardless, nyteschayde's question was wether or not there is such a software emulator in existance, and the answer is yes.
Mind you, development started relativly recently, and is work in progress, so Im sure there are unreleased potential ahead as Jari continues his work.

Considering your *fangirl* reaction to the V4 news, it tells me you are lining up to get one or more of these babies. Why not just dive in and register to the Apollo forum?
There you can ask Jari directly questions or give comments regarding the FEMU.
With your background as Amigan AND software engineer, Im sure you are able formulate suggestions and questions much better than the majority of us. ;)

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=0
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: madgrizzle on August 04, 2017, 07:08:27 PM
My perfect Christmas present to myself.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: magnetic on August 05, 2017, 02:37:49 AM
Quote from: ToddH;828998
Looks like the 1200 version is at the bottom of the release list, which is disappointing. A lot of A1200 users have waited patiently while A500/600/2000 owners have enjoyed their new hardware. At this rate it looks like the 1200 version won't arrive until sometime next year. :(


Do you have any idea how much work is involved in doing the a1200 version? Already the current versions still need work on software compatibility and its been years of programming!

Congrats to Vampire team on new version!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: magnetic on August 05, 2017, 02:39:54 AM
Quote from: gregthecanuck;829054
It has an MMU, but it is an evolved design from previous chips. This has good/bad points. Bad point is it is not backwards compatible. Good point is it is a forward-looking design supporting MMU features (such as non-executable memory) that are not in previous MMU designs. Also has other bonuses that contribute to overall system performance.

Gunnar has taken a long-term view on where the design should be going forward and I agree completely with the decisions being made. I am no fanboy but this guy does know what he is doing. Some short-term pain for sure as the tools/utilities catch up with the new MMU.

The FPU side - short-term the team has recently delivered the "femu" software that allows *any* FPU-less Amiga to run programs requiring an FPU. Pretty cool. Is it as fast as a real FPU - heck no! Does it let a lot of new programs run - yes. How much of a hit the software FPU makes on performance depends a lot on the program. Also this software is very new (version 0.10 recently released) so in theory the speed could be improved going forward.

Long-term the plan is for an FPU to be there in the core. It is just a resource/priority issue (and maybe an available LE issue). At least for now there is a short-term solution.

For some people a hardware FPU is very important. I can understand that completely. For example I think Quake ran at like 2 or 3 FPS (instead of not running at all). In that case you just need to keep waiting for the feature to be implemented... only 2 more weeks... ;)

Cheers!


FPU is extremely important as is MMU for running real legacy apps. Not all of us just have amigas to play whdload and .mods! This is the main problem for me with vampire it cant really replace real accelerators for using serious applications that need MMU and /or FPU
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 05, 2017, 02:54:56 AM
Quote from: magnetic;829108
FPU is extremely important as is MMU for running real legacy apps. Not all of us just have amigas to play whdload and .mods! This is the main problem for me with vampire it cant really replace real accelerators for using serious applications that need MMU and /or FPU


Thanks Mag,
I've been saying that for awhile, but the users focused on gaming don't seem to think its important.
One application I can think of is NetBSD, which simply won't run without an MMU (a Motorola compatible MMU, guys).
And a lot of applications make use of floating point calls.
This is not a minor issue, its a serious flaw for anyone that wants to do more than play around, and its freakin' irritating that the fanboys keep fluffing it off.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: magnetic on August 05, 2017, 02:57:27 AM
Quote from: Iggy;829109
Thanks Mag,
I've been saying that for awhile, but the users focused on gaming don't seem to think its important.
One application I can think of is NetBSD, which simply won't run without an MMU (a Motorola compatible MMU, guys).
And a lot of applications make use of floating point calls.
This is not a minor issue, its a serious flaw for anyone that wants to do more than play around, and its freakin' irritating that the fanboys keep fluffing it off.


iggy most ppl here that use classics basically just use them for gaming not much else.... i have classics more for video stuff (genlocks) and music (midi) and weird gfx. So i need mmu and fpu
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 05, 2017, 03:08:24 AM
Quote from: magnetic;829110
iggy most ppl here that use classics basically just use them for gaming not much else.... i have classics more for video stuff (genlocks) and music (midi) and weird gfx. So i need mmu and fpu


Yeah, I kind of gathered that when their primary basis for comparisons between  
PPC NG and the Vampire was how well each platform supported gaming software.
But I don't play a lot of games, and I never have (not even in the '90s).
And I'd actually like to get in on this, but all I get are excuses as to why I don't really need these features, or claims that they'll be implemented down the road.
And if I bring it up, people pout, as if I'm somehow being unfair.

Since when is it unfair to expect upgrade hardware to at least match the feature set of twenty year old hardware?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 05, 2017, 03:12:52 AM
I may put one in my my A2000 but my 4000T will be left alone with CS MKIII just for that reason.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: magnetic on August 05, 2017, 03:38:23 AM
I wish the Vampire project got more back to the roots of the project where it was for a kick ass 68k accelerator. Now it seems they are going towards a new platform, which is cool and fun and all, and some of it looks impressive ( i saw acill's a2k running new core looks cool) but for me if you want a newish amiga platform we already have NG for that. For me its ALL about legacy compatibility thats the only reason I still run classics.

I think focus should be on compatibility and fixing bugs and not towards a whole new platform.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: PPC on August 05, 2017, 07:25:48 AM
@magnetic

Actually it's both, also keep in mind that out classic Amiga's are very old and sometimes very brittle now.
So if you want a nice small new box you can go for the standalone version but if you want to have a classic yet very fast Amiga then you can go for the add-on card.

Another advantage is you can connect the V4 to a modern display with a modern way of connecting it that will be supported for years to come.
It's hard these days to find a display that has a SCART connector, or you'll have to deal with all kinds of adapters (indivision etc).

And from Gold 3 core you can also have OCS/ECS/AGA and 4 MB chip in Fast RAM.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: slimf on August 05, 2017, 09:00:08 AM
I think what these guys want is for developers to update their old apps to suit this new environment. Recompiling old software and modifying it so that it doesn't require an FPU is surely a good way forward.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: polyp2000 on August 05, 2017, 09:42:25 AM
Quote from: LoadWB;828997
Okay, I GREATLY appreciate the work going into the Vampires.  I have a 500+v2 or v2+ of my own and it's been pretty damn awesome.  HOWEVER, why are we still sticking with IDE and not going SATA?  Or both?  Am I in the minority for my desire to use SSDs instead of CFs or even IDE DoM?

In any case, a Vampire for the 1200 will be sweet!


I imagine implementing SATA is more than just adding the right socket to the board. IDE is a much simpler design and consequently a quick win.

Im with you on this though , SATA does make sense since thats the protocol everything uses now.

As for SSD , will the Vampire make the Amiga go fast enough to keep up with one ,and are the sorts of file sizes most people will transfer large enough for it to be of benefit? Also you need to think about support for them on AmigaOS . AFAIK theres no support for TRIM .  Im thinking hybrid drive would probably be a better (and cheaper).
 
I wouldnt be suprised if SATA comes in a future iteration - but already this is better than anything we could have ever imagined !

Thanks

Nick
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Iggy on August 05, 2017, 11:18:57 AM
Quote from: polyp2000;829126
I imagine implementing SATA is more than just adding the right socket to the board. IDE is a much simpler design and consequently a quick win.

Im with you on this though , SATA does make sense since thats the protocol everything uses now.

As for SSD , will the Vampire make the Amiga go fast enough to keep up with one ,and are the sorts of file sizes most people will transfer large enough for it to be of benefit? Also you need to think about support for them on AmigaOS . AFAIK theres no support for TRIM .  Im thinking hybrid drive would probably be a better (and cheaper).
 
I wouldnt be suprised if SATA comes in a future iteration - but already this is better than anything we could have ever imagined !

Thanks

Nick


Well, we still have SATA to IDE converters, and you're right that the transfer speeds will be limited with either type of device.
SSDs are fairly pointless for this application, and my experience with them is that when they fail, they do so with zero warning signs (making routine backups  essential).
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 05, 2017, 11:27:28 AM
Quote from: slimf;829125
I think what these guys want is for developers to update their old apps to suit this new environment. Recompiling old software and modifying it so that it doesn't require an FPU is surely a good way forward.


No, that's just ridiculous. Requiring recompilation of legacy code where the source might not be available...might as well be running on ColdFire at that point.
Look these excuses are no more than that.
And if Gunnar want to implement a superset of fpu commands for new or recompiled software, I'm all for it.

But this isn't a 'new environment', its new hardware designed for old code.
If the OS required an fpu, would the development team still be dragging their heels on it or suggesting recompilation?

Is there some problem the developers aren't letting us onto?
Like maybe they've had difficulty creating a functional floating point component?
I know they claim to have something, but that so far is just a claim.

And compatibility is important, if you're talking legacy applications.
Otherwise, why wouldn't you move to NG?
Its certainly faster.

We see full support for register level video and sound compatibility.
Is there something wrong with Motorola's designs for the cpu that the rest of us aren't aware of?
Because the 'we have a better way' argument isn't proving out.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: IanP on August 05, 2017, 01:04:12 PM
No need to recompile old apps for no FPU, just use Femu for now or wait for FPU on the V4.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 05, 2017, 01:35:40 PM
Quote from: IanP;829130
No need to recompile old apps for no FPU, just use Femu for now or wait for FPU on the V4.


That seems like a likely solution, at least for the time being.
And with the new fpga, there is room for the additional components.
I'd still like the mmu, as I want to get back to using BSD.

But,  it actually think the new specs look pretty cool.
It's going to be a lot faster.

And, as much as everyone must be tiring of my fixation on these features, at least they can be added to the Vampire.
Tabor is permanently crippled.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: LoadWB on August 05, 2017, 03:20:24 PM
Quote from: Iggy;829128
my experience with them is that when they fail, they do so with zero warning signs (making routine backups  essential).


My experience with regular hard drives is the same.  One day everything is going swimmingly and the next day it fails to start.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Kremlar on August 05, 2017, 03:45:59 PM
Can't understand why a few people don't see the draw of a standalone.  These will sell many times more than OS4 PPC systems in a shorter amount of time.

PPC may have been the way Commodore was going, but what Commodore did and was doing with the Amiga is far less interesting than what the original Amiga team created.

More people are interested in what the Amiga would have been if it was continued along those original lines.  68K, enhanced chipset, etc.  

If Hyerion were smart they would back port features from OS4 to OS3 68K (if legally possible).  They would sell many more licenses than PPC.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Kremlar on August 05, 2017, 03:47:47 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;829133
My experience with regular hard drives is the same.  One day everything is going swimmingly and the next day it fails to start.


Right.  SSDs fail too, but unless you need huge capacities solid state is the way to go nowadays.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Pat the Cat on August 05, 2017, 03:49:53 PM
Quote from: IanP;829130
No need to recompile old apps for no FPU, just use Femu for now or wait for FPU on the V4.

Sounds like a plan.
 
 Can be an issue with some of the old stuff just doing a hardware check for an FPU rather than asking nicely.
 
 Actually some of it doesn't even scan, it just assumes there is an FPU and bombs out if one isn't present. That stuff probably will work fine with Femu.
Title: Re: Vampire v4
Post by: Iggy on August 05, 2017, 04:04:01 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;829133
My experience with regular hard drives is the same.  One day everything is going swimmingly and the next day it fails to start.

I've been pretty lucky in being able to recover data from failing mechanical drives, and the SSDs I've had that have had fail have simply stopped working, totally, at once, with zero warning.

But we should all back up our data.

On my PCs these days, I back up to USB connected hard drives that I remove after backup. USB3.0 is a bit slower than SATA connected directly, but its still light years faster than some of the legacy hardware I have.

And I can't argue against the speed of SSDs. I even have an OWC unit in my PowerMac G4. After all, the size limitations for MorphOS drives rather suits SSD capacities.

Quote from: Kremlar;829136
Right.  SSDs fail too, but unless you need huge capacities solid state is the way to go nowadays.

I use large drives as secondary data storage now, with SSDs for my boot/primary drive.

Combining the two gives me fast operation AND cheap mass storage. :)

Then again, I still use optical drives, so maybe you don't want to follow my lead...;-).

I even have a PCI SATA controller stashed for use in an future X5000, so I can support two optical drives along with an SSD boot drive and a large mechanical hard drive for storage.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BozzerBigD on August 05, 2017, 04:27:20 PM
Optical Drives are a good and cheap back up solution especially for photos and home movies. The Cloud is the worst solution for photos and movies as when hacked your life is laid bare on the internet! Why people are so happy for this risk is beyond me! Slap the files on a Blu-Ray disc, put them in a drawer and they're good for 20 years. No password or security required unless you want to lock the drawer or put them in a safe! Better still give the photos to a trusted extended family member and even if you have a fire the data will be ok ;-)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: giZmo350 on August 05, 2017, 05:03:11 PM
I for one, will not be drinking the Vampire blood! I will instead, be eating the Jens A1200 reloaded gunpowder! :)

I've already bought the ACA 1233n @40MHz along with XC68882RC40A 40Mhz 68030 FPU. :laugh1:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 05, 2017, 06:08:27 PM
Quote from: gizmo350;829141
I for one, will not be drinking the Vampire blood! I will instead, be eating the Jens A1200 reloaded gunpowder! :)

I've already bought the ACA 1233n @40MHz along with XC68882RC40A 40Mhz 68030 FPU. :laugh1:


It would be interesting to see how well these products (Vampire4 and A1200 Reloaded) work together.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: IanP on August 05, 2017, 07:52:43 PM
Amiga reloaded was announced over 2 years ago at Amiga 30 Amsterdam and still all we have seen is a wiki page of potential specifications. Vampire V4 was announced, what 3 days ago with images of the standalone/500 version and target availability of Q4 this year. With reloaded you'll need to add a amiga doner case, keyboard and mouse, accelerator and if you want features of the V4 like USB and Ethernet you'll need to buy those as well, you may need a DVI to HDMI adaptor. Of course you'll miss out on the power of the Apollo Core and enhanced audio. But if you just want a new A1200 like machine then the reloaded will be fine I expect.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: B00tDisk on August 05, 2017, 08:05:52 PM
I for one would like to buy a standalone v4, assuming Femu also matures and strengthens.

I think there's a case to be made for using it as a daily driver (almost!) given the right software suite.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 06, 2017, 09:43:11 AM
Quote from: IanP;829146
Vampire V4 was announced, what 3 days ago

If you're comparing the initial announcement of the two, it's June 2015 for Amiga Reloaded and October 2016 for Apollo Standalone.

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=2723

Neither have shipped yet. Vampire production has always struggled to meet demand, Jens has had more success (but he's not perfect).

Time will tell.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: magnetic on August 08, 2017, 02:35:31 AM
Quote from: psxphill;829161


Neither have shipped yet. Vampire production has always struggled to meet demand, Jens has had more success (but he's not perfect).

Time will tell.


Lol Vampire is a hobby project with little funding. Individual Computers (jens s.) is a real company with tooling and facilities not even comparable.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 08, 2017, 09:12:44 AM
Quote from: magnetic;829197
Lol Vampire is a hobby project with little funding. Individual Computers (jens s.) is a real company with tooling and facilities not even comparable.


Yes and both have pros and cons. My post was a reply to someone who was comparing what you say is not comparable.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 08, 2017, 12:01:48 PM
Hairsplitting, Amigans favourite hobby since the 90s ;)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: jj on August 08, 2017, 12:26:56 PM
So the standalone will basically be an Amiga with non of the expansion slots.  What is the benefit of this hardware emulation over much cheaper faster software emulation ?
 
 Just trying to work out the point of the standalone
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 08, 2017, 12:34:13 PM
Quote from: JJ;829207
So the standalone will basically be an Amiga with non of the expansion slots.  What is the benefit of this hardware emulation over much cheaper faster software emulation ?
 
 Just trying to work out the point of the standalone

latency and timing, it's the only point of using an fpga for emulation rather than a program running on a general purpose computer.

The gates in an fpga are dedicated to a particular job, so they can monitor your joystick inputs and run code and display video simultaneously. An emulator on a general purpose computer multiplexes all it's gates, so it will be doing different tasks at different times.

Some LCD TV upscalers have terrible latency too, so you should compare it to an Amiga on a CRT. If you can't tell the difference (and some people cannot) then you don't need to spend the extra money.

There is also the cool factor, but agai
n if you don't feel that then it's not for you.

Some people hate emulators running on a general purpose computer for not being authentic, for other reasons than timing and latency, which is more of a religious thing. Using FPGA for emulation is no real different, if the original hardware had analogue quirks (like undocumented behaviour changed based on temperature) then an FPGA is going to be just as bad at emulating that as software on a general purpose computer.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: jj on August 08, 2017, 12:48:34 PM
Quote from: psxphill;829208
latency and timing, it's the only point of using an fpga for emulation rather than a program running on a general purpose computer.

The gates in an fpga are dedicated to a particular job, so they can monitor your joystick inputs and run code and display video simultaneously. An emulator on a general purpose computer multiplexes all it's gates, so it will be doing different tasks at different times.

Some LCD TV upscalers have terrible latency too, so you should compare it to an Amiga on a CRT. If you can't tell the difference (and some people cannot) then you don't need to spend the extra money.

There is also the cool factor, but agai
n if you don't feel that then it's not for you.

Some people hate emulators running on a general purpose computer for not being authentic, for other reasons than timing and latency, which is more of a religious thing. Using FPGA for emulation is no real different, if the original hardware had analogue quirks (like undocumented behaviour changed based on temperature) then an FPGA is going to be just as bad at emulating that as software on a general purpose computer.

Thanks for a reasoned response.  So go for an accelerator if you want the geninue-ish amiga feel.  As I guess these are quite far off in compatibility ?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 08, 2017, 01:21:29 PM
Quote from: JJ;829209
Thanks for a reasoned response.  So go for an accelerator if you want the geninue-ish amiga feel.  As I guess these are quite far off in compatibility ?


It depends on your priority. For games then the apollo people will argue that it's better for compatibility with 68000 games than a real cpu is.

However if you want to run bsd or shapeshifter, then you want an mmu and vampire/apollo doesn't support those at all.

It's less clear for software that needs an fpu, supposedly that exists but either doesn't work or hasn't been tested enough so it's disabled. Whether it will ever be enabled or not is another matter, they'll probably say that you don't really need to run that stupid software anyway.

I'm still in two minds. If they supported an 060 CPU, MMU & FPU with no extras with an additional core that had all their custom extras then I'd be in. Even if running the authentic 060 meant I couldn't run software that wouldn't run on a real 060.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Louis Dias on August 08, 2017, 02:10:17 PM
Only Amiga OS has lacked a 'software' FPU.  These were all part of Apple and even Atari IIRC.  Motorola has libraries written to handle FPU instructions when an FPU wasn't present.

Here's what happens:
CPU receives an FPU instruction.
If A FPU exists, the instruction is handled.
If not a exception is thrown.
If the exception handler contains a jump to a software routine to handle the instruction, then the instruction is handle by a library call.
If not: epic fail.

Amiga OS has been epic fail for a long time.
FEMU should have been part of Amiga OS in 1985.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 08, 2017, 02:13:07 PM
psxphill makes some good comments regarding FPU.

At the moment there is a FEMU program, that software emulates FPU, which can be tested both in WinUAE and on real hardware missing the FPU.

It allows you to run software that requires FPU, but during FPU intensive operation, expect rather punishing performance issues when running it on Vampire hardware.
But the program/demos/games runs atleast (more and more I should say).

BUT, FEMU is work in progress, and Jari is improving the emulation. Its still just that tho, emulation.
What comes of a possible hardware FPU with the introduction of V4 is a open question.
Its been said that the Apollo Core contains FPU, but its more advanced/added features.
Some might say its compatible, but my comment/question then becomes;

Cant the Apollo FPU be used in the future to fix the performance issues we get from FEMU, and then take care of the compability issues FPU wise thru library/FEMU adaption?

Im just throwing my comment out there for more knowledgable people to elaborate on the possibilities :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 08, 2017, 02:39:27 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;829212
Only Amiga OS has lacked a 'software' FPU.  These were all part of Apple and even Atari IIRC.  Motorola has libraries written to handle FPU instructions when an FPU wasn't present.

Motorola has FPU packages to emulate the instructions missing in the 040 & 060 FPU so that 68881/68882 software would still run. The 040 package was shipped with AmigaOS in the 68040.library and in MacOS. I've never heard of a full FPU emulator for 68k until FEMU came along.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 08, 2017, 02:59:03 PM
Quote from: psxphill;829214
Motorola has FPU packages to emulate the instructions missing in the 040 & 060 FPU so that 68881/68882 software would still run. The 040 package was shipped with AmigaOS in the 68040.library and in MacOS. I've never heard of a full FPU emulator for 68k until FEMU came along.

SoftFPU was a product available for MacOs which did the same, i.e. it emulated FPU instructions for the "Economy Class" version of the 68040, namely the 68EC040. The EC040 had a special trap for all FPU instructions software would take. Unfortuately, due to a bug in some EC040 masks, SoftFPU would not run reliably, in particular if a FPU instruction crossed a page boundary. Hence, the product caused a series of problems at users, and there is no known workaround for this problem at hand. (Yes, the 68040 has a long list of errata, too.)

For Amiga, this is not exactly the right way of handling it. The AmigaOs math model is based on the math/mathieee libraries which implement all the necessary math operations, and which uses the FPU whenever one is available. Software that really requires high-speed math (i.e. raytracing etc) should better check the avaialbility of a FPU and branch into a distinct set of worker functions rather than requiring users to know which hardware they actually have available. Just crashing (as we see it here) is not an acceptable practise, and a software emulator is neither a very good solution for improperly written software.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 08, 2017, 03:01:43 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;829212
FEMU should have been part of Amiga OS in 1985.

No, software should have been written properly. As often on the Amiga, it was not. If no FPU is available, mathieeedoubbas (or even singbas) performs much better than having to go through an emulator trap.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Louis Dias on August 08, 2017, 03:07:59 PM
Quote from: psxphill;829214
Motorola has FPU packages to emulate the instructions missing in the 040 & 060 FPU so that 68881/68882 software would still run. The 040 package was shipped with AmigaOS in the 68040.library and in MacOS. I've never heard of a full FPU emulator.


They are not emulators.  Just code to handle trapped cpu missing instruction exceptions.
I think the '060 is missing some INTEGER instructions that the 040 had and those again are handled by a library call...as some addressing modes.

http://www.nxp.com/products/microcontrollers-and-processors/more-processors/coldfire-plus-coldfire-32-bit-mcus/68k-processors-legacy/m680x0/superscalar-68k-microprocessorbr-including-the-lc060-and-ec060:MC68060

If you're wondering why compilers are being tweaked, read this:
http://www.nxp.com/docs/en/supporting-information/MC680X0OPTAPP.txt

The 68K family has lots of quirks and it's interesting that the Apollo manages them well.
But let's all whine about why feature X is not implemented yet instead...
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 08, 2017, 04:57:38 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;829217
I think the '060 is missing some INTEGER instructions that the 040 had and those again are handled by a library call...
What is missing are 64bit multiply and divide instructions. That's taken care of by the 68060.library. But again, the better option is (again) not to depend on this but rather use the utility.library to handle 64bit math. Popular C compilers provide options for this.

Quote from: lou_dias;829217
as some addressing modes.
That only goes for FPU instructions, and the addressing mode missing is packed decimal. But it is also missing on the 68040. It's a lesser used encoding of floating point using a decimal (rather than binary) encoding.


Quote from: lou_dias;829217
The 68K family has lots of quirks and it's interesting that the Apollo manages them well.
Quirks? Not really, it is a very orthogonal instruction set, compared to what intel produced.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 08, 2017, 05:49:26 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;829217
They are not emulators.  Just code to handle trapped cpu missing instruction exceptions.

That is an emulator, it pretends to do the same job as something else.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Louis Dias on August 08, 2017, 06:12:59 PM
Quote
Quirks? Not really, it is a very orthogonal instruction set, compared to what intel produced.

The quirks I'm referring to are about the differences in the cpu's themselves (68000, 68010, 68020, 68030, 68040, 68060)...compilers "hide" those things...sometimes...

Another laughable point is the demand for an MMU.  Yet another quirky feature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_68851
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_68451
Which MMU do you implement in the Apollo?
Yet people will whine about the *custom* one they are developing... /facepalm.
Again, OS-level support is missing in 3.1 for an MMU.  How is that a must-have feature?
When the OS has been elevated to a modern standard, then it will be *must-have* but the Apollo's MMU will set that standard going forward, not looking backwards.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Louis Dias on August 08, 2017, 06:16:24 PM
Quote from: psxphill;829224
That is an emulator, it pretends to do the same job as something else.

I don't consider patching in a jump-address to a subroutine/function an "emulation".
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 08, 2017, 07:36:29 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;829225
The quirks I'm referring to are about the differences in the cpu's themselves (68000, 68010, 68020, 68030, 68040, 68060)...compilers "hide" those things...sometimes...
Actually, the user space programming model is exactly identical *except* a single instruction, which is MOVE from SR which is priviledged in the 68010 and all above. Except that, user space is all the same.

The supervisor space programming model is, however, different, but that should be taken care of by the operating system. That is, however, not a quirk, but not much different from other CPU architectures.


Quote from: lou_dias;829225
Another laughable point is the demand for an MMU.  Yet another quirky feature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_68851
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_68451
Which MMU do you implement in the Apollo?
That is not quite the problem. It is not "which MMU", but rather "are the provided MMU features sufficient to provide the same features Motorola offered". Again, the MMU as a supervisor feature changed from generation to generation. That is not a problem. The problem is that the Apollo approach is much less powerful and much less flexible than *any* of the existing Motorola MMUs. A "page size" of 256K is certainly not sufficient.

To give you some idea, the PPC MMU is a completely different design, yet it is sufficiently complex to do anything a 68K MMU can do. The same does not hold for Apollo.

Quote from: lou_dias;829225
Yet people will whine about the *custom* one they are developing... /facepalm.
No, and if you reduce it to this, you don't understand the problem.

Quote from: lou_dias;829225
Again, OS-level support is missing in 3.1 for an MMU.
No, it's not. It has been there since a long time, in various tools.

Quote from: lou_dias;829225
How is that a must-have feature?
Because it allows many desirable functionalities for software development, as well as for end-user features.

Quote from: lou_dias;829225
When the OS has been elevated to a modern standard, then it will be *must-have* but the Apollo's MMU will set that standard going forward, not looking backwards.
Look, the "Os" cannot be "elevated" to a modern standard. That's simply because some of its core design decisions are inheritely broken, and in contradiction to what a "modern standard" would have to say.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 08, 2017, 08:14:40 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;829226
I don't consider patching in a jump-address to a subroutine/function an "emulation".

Those subroutine/function are emulating FPU instructions.

The name "FEMU" gives a good impression that it's emulation.

It's not just a one off either, x87emu predates it by decades https://github.com/bitblaze-fuzzball/fuzzball/tree/master/extras/x87-emu
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Louis Dias on August 08, 2017, 08:21:01 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;829230
Actually, the user space programming model is exactly identical *except* a single instruction, which is MOVE from SR which is priviledged in the 68010 and all above. Except that, user space is all the same.

The supervisor space programming model is, however, different, but that should be taken care of by the operating system. That is, however, not a quirk, but not much different from other CPU architectures.



That is not quite the problem. It is not "which MMU", but rather "are the provided MMU features sufficient to provide the same features Motorola offered". Again, the MMU as a supervisor feature changed from generation to generation. That is not a problem. The problem is that the Apollo approach is much less powerful and much less flexible than *any* of the existing Motorola MMUs. A "page size" of 256K is certainly not sufficient.

To give you some idea, the PPC MMU is a completely different design, yet it is sufficiently complex to do anything a 68K MMU can do. The same does not hold for Apollo.


No, and if you reduce it to this, you don't understand the problem.


No, it's not. It has been there since a long time, in various tools.


Because it allows many desirable functionalities for software development, as well as for end-user features.


Look, the "Os" cannot be "elevated" to a modern standard. That's simply because some of its core design decisions are inheritely broken, and in contradiction to what a "modern standard" would have to say.

I think our perspectives are different.  If you look at the link for building compilers to handle the various cpus I linked to earlier, you'd see much more differences.
"user space" is nice.  Things need to happen a couple of levels below that to keep it nice.

My comment about elevating the OS was of course about creating a new modern 68K version.  But that proves the point of why an MMU will never be a must-have feature of OS3.X...  Virtual memory becomes a moot point when you can run on a couple of megs and suddenly now your hardware suddenly come equipped with .5GB to 4GB on-board...
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 08, 2017, 08:28:03 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;829232
But that proves the point of why an MMU will never be a must-have feature of OS3.X...  Virtual memory becomes a moot point when you can run on a couple of megs and suddenly now your hardware suddenly come equipped with .5GB to 4GB on-board...

An MMU was never a must have feature for AmigaOS because there were very few Amigas that commodore shipped with an MMU.

However it's very much a nice to have feature. In my opinion you may as well make it 68040 or 68060 compatible because then you have software. But they have a religious disagreement with that.

Don't forget that OS3.X is not the only OS that runs on the Amiga. There are two unix versions that would be nice to run.

I would also love to see a sega mega drive emulator for amigaos that runs the game code natively and using an mmu to trap the hardware accesses. I don't know if real AGA would be quick enough, but SAGA should be.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 08, 2017, 09:27:31 PM
Quote from: psxphill;829234
An MMU was never a must have feature for AmigaOS because there were very few Amigas that commodore shipped with an MMU.

However it's very much a nice to have feature. In my opinion you may as well make it 68040 or 68060 compatible because then you have software. But they have a religious disagreement with that.

Don't forget that OS3.X is not the only OS that runs on the Amiga. There are two unix versions that would be nice to run.

I would also love to see a sega mega drive emulator for amigaos that runs the game code natively and using an mmu to trap the hardware accesses. I don't know if real AGA would be quick enough, but SAGA should be.


Its not a religious disagreement from what Ive seen Gunnar say on the matter.

There seems to be several considerations;

a) Time and manpower to do all the "to do items".

b) Gunnar/the team wants hardware that runs alot/most of the software available, BUT at the same time opens up for future developments on the software side. Making sure the FPU for example has functionalities beyond what was the norm in the 90s.

Ofcourse, some might say " well, thats not what defined Amiga back then, so stick to the legacy, dont create all this fluff that didnt exsist".
Jens will give you that option whenever he releases the A1200 Reloaded.

So Apollo gives you his option, and Jens his. Its up to you to decide which works best for your requirements/needs.

And is it unrealistic that the Apollo Core FPU will be able to deliver the legacy functionality? Be it thru its internals or thru library support?

There is the issue that in the future there might be programs released that works exclusivly on the Vampire, and I guess thats one of the main sources of annoyance/worry from some people.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 08, 2017, 10:35:04 PM
Quote from: Niding;829244
a) Time and manpower to do all the "to do items".
No, certainly, I agree. It's a massive project, and it's really astonishing how far they got. I certainly do not disagree with this.

Quote from: Niding;829244
b) Gunnar/the team wants hardware that runs alot/most of the software available, BUT at the same time opens up for future developments on the software side. Making sure the FPU for example has functionalities beyond what was the norm in the 90s.
Well... The disagreement is probably a bit what the "future" should be. For example, from a purely technical perspective, I understand that Gunnar wants to opt for a 64 (double precision) FPU only because it is readily available as an existing functional block on some FPGAs, but this also has the risk that it may potentially cause compatibility issues with existing software that may possibly depend on 96 bits. So it's a sacrifise to make. I personally disagree with this choice and I'd rather have a slower, but fully compatible FPU. That's basically because I believe that the times AmigaOs or Amiga would have had a "future" are long gone. Most people use it as a legacy system for "good times", but not as a productivity machine.


Quote from: Niding;829244
And is it unrealistic that the Apollo Core FPU will be able to deliver the legacy functionality? Be it thru its internals or thru library support?
It wouldn't be a hard problem to provide a mathieeedoubbas & friends that works with the new FPU, that's an easy problem to solve. However, this still doesn't make the FPU full 96 bit, and I am a bit afraid that *this* may *potentially* cause some problem here and there. But then again, a FPU is really rarely needed, and number crunching is not exactly the application domain of the Amiga - so one doesn't neither a *fast* FPU, nor a *precise* FPU. The current state as far as the FPU is concerned is therefore not as bad as some people want to make it appear.

Quote from: Niding;829244
There is the issue that in the future there might be programs released that works exclusivly on the Vampire, and I guess thats one of the main sources of annoyance/worry from some people.
Well, I don't even know whether this really worries me so much. Having a fully compatible working Amiga system would certainly be nice, given that the hardware aged. The problem is more that the Amiga environment depends a lot on its legacy software, and I don't believe that intentionally introducing an incompatibility "for the sake of speed" is a good move. I would put compatibility first, and speed second. After all, if I want speed without compatibility, I already have a PC, and the new core will still not be powerful enough for any real-world applications in first place, so why bother too much about speed in first place. Speed is nice, but compatibility is a "must have", and speed will come with new FPGA generations anyhow.

Unfortunately, this vision is not quite shared by the team, and that's probably the main issue. One could have done things "right" with a potentially slower full FPU, and a potentially slower full MMU, no matter about the details too much, but "complete enough" to do anything a 68K can (or could) do.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 08, 2017, 11:01:19 PM
@Thomas

For those that deem the Amiga future completely dead, then having a future oriented FPGA shouldnt matter..or? They consider it competely dead right?
And for the record; I dont think Amiga will rise again either. I dont have illusions of conquest etc. But it can reach functionality level where you CAN actually use it for many/most day to day tasks.
Ofcourse, Ill gladly admit Ive grown more or less dependent on dual monitor for work. Then again, if you got a big/wide enough monitor, then that problem can be somewhat negated by adjusting the windows.

With regards to be able to run legacy programs; based on what ive seen, there seems to be decent compability as it stands already. Yes, you will always be able to find some program that crashes, but the same was the case when I upgraded from A500 to A1200.
And thats something that can be tweaked directly in the core if need be. OR library..? But its obvious that if a program is written badly enough, there is no reason to jump thru 20 hoops just to make it run. Gotta cut off at some point.

Then you got the issue of new programs requiring Vampire; if you are part of the Legacy only crowd, then new programs shouldnt matter to you anyhow. I realise you dont seem to worried about the direction the Apollo is heading. Quite neutral by the looks of it.

My take on it to sum it up; the situation for 68k has been stagnate, and many of us has been completely inactive hardware wise. Be it cause of failing accelerators, no working monitors, which can be negated by Indivision, but it got its issues.
With the Vampire; you have easy access to high performance (relativly speaking) RTG hardware, which makes the userexpirience very pleasant from a enduser perspective.
I have gotten the distinct sense that some developers are not so happy about the debugging enviroment for example.
But you have atleast gotten access to a certain portion of the community that enjoyed the Amiga thru youtube. We are all in our late 30s to 40++, many with disposable income.
As dead as the Amiga might be on a mainstream scale, there seems to be enough Vampires around to atleast accomodate SOME income for those intrested in crossdeveloping like Cherry Darling does for a wide range of platforms (Not Vampire at the moment tho).

I think you catch my drift on the topic :-)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 09, 2017, 12:19:35 AM
Quote from: Niding;829249
@Thomas

For those that deem the Amiga future completely dead, then having a future oriented FPGA shouldnt matter..or? They consider it competely dead right?
Not so. Look, we're talking about 25 year old hardware. New chips are not growing on the trees, nobody is manifacturing them anymore. More and more fake CPUs are on the market (or less and less authentic ones), legacy interfaces such as VGA (or even 15kHz output!) or the Amiga mice ports die out. Thus, if you want to preserve the system, some new hardware *has* to become available.

In my experience, emulators are not providing consistent emulation, and user experience is lacking. So yes, I believe that there is really a need for some form of new hardware - and what Jens is providing are at best new boards for old chips - so not really a solution for the problem.

Quote from: Niding;829249
And for the record; I dont think Amiga will rise again either. I dont have illusions of conquest etc. But it can reach functionality level where you CAN actually use it for many/most day to day tasks.
But that's only partially the problem of lacking hardware. It is a problem of lacking software. You do not exactly enable new products by breaking legacy either.


Quote from: Niding;829249
With regards to be able to run legacy programs; based on what ive seen, there seems to be decent compability as it stands already. Yes, you will always be able to find some program that crashes, but the same was the case when I upgraded from A500 to A1200.
Yes, certainly, but the situation was a bit different back then. Back then, one could hope that sofware vendors would have some interest in fixing up their broken software to reach new customers, but that's no longer given. Nobody will fix old code at this point anymore.

Quote from: Niding;829249
And thats something that can be tweaked directly in the core if need be. OR library..? But its obvious that if a program is written badly enough, there is no reason to jump thru 20 hoops just to make it run. Gotta cut off at some point.
I would prefer to keep this to an absolute minimum, and I would pick priorities someway different, as said.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 09, 2017, 12:39:42 AM
Quote from: Niding;829244
Its not a religious disagreement from what Ive seen Gunnar say on the matter.

There seems to be several considerations;

a) Time and manpower to do all the "to do items".

b) Gunnar/the team wants hardware that runs alot/most of the software available, BUT at the same time opens up for future developments on the software side. Making sure the FPU for example has functionalities beyond what was the norm in the 90s.

Exactly. He has always had a hatred for the FPU and MMU compatibility and the fan boys think he's the second coming because he added some opcodes that accelerate some software that doesn't exist yet.

The worst thing you can ever do is have someone with a strong opinion about things and a bunch of enablers.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 09, 2017, 01:02:56 AM
Eeeeh, you psxphill is the one assigning strong feelings in this disscussion.
So if I enjoy using generic monitors with no hassle, with high color and resolution with no system lag, Im a mindless fanboy?

I doubt very much Gunnar hates fpu or mmu in the old form, he just got other plans going forward.
One can have objections about the choice, like Thomas has, without assigning  crusaderlike motives behind it.

I prefer Android over IOS, but I accept IOS got its merits, and is prefered by the majority of people I know.
Im not feeling the urge to call them fanboys or enablers.

Its a cheap argument tool to stereotype and categorize people that way.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 09, 2017, 01:21:17 AM
Quote from: Niding;829256
Eeeeh, you psxphill is the one assigning strong feelings in this disscussion.

I'm just pointing it out. Whether you choose to ignore the signs is up to you. It killed natami.

Gunnar is on a crusade to get apollo in embedded designs. The Amiga is a test bed and advertising, so fpu/mmu compatibility isn't that important for him. I know I'm not the only one who understands that. Go talk to matthey and kolla.

I have no idea what your point is about monitors, it doesn't seem to relate to anything I said.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Crom00 on August 09, 2017, 01:22:04 AM
I don't think Gunnar hates FPU's. He has stated that purchase a Vampire only if you feel it has the features you need today. Keep in mind UNLIKE other product ranges the features can be upgraded and improved via flashing the core of your choice.

V4 has enough space for an FPU. I wouldn't be a stretch to envision the work done on FEMU put into an FPGA.

The I supposed folks will  then complain the V4 doesn't have a floppy drive controller for floppy compatibility...and that's fine... SO Alright then... it has I/O ports, perhaps someone can fab a floppy port. I dunno beats the hell out of recapping Amigas every 15 years.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Louis Dias on August 09, 2017, 01:44:58 AM
Quote from: Crom00;829258
I don't think Gunnar hates FPU's. He has stated that purchase a Vampire only if you feel it has the features you need today. Keep in mind UNLIKE other product ranges the features can be upgraded and improved via flashing the core of your choice.

V4 has enough space for an FPU. I wouldn't be a stretch to envision the work done on FEMU put into an FPGA.

The I supposed folks will  then complain the V4 doesn't have a floppy drive controller for floppy compatibility...and that's fine... SO Alright then... it has I/O ports, perhaps someone can fab a floppy port. I dunno beats the hell out of recapping Amigas every 15 years.

They will always find something to complain about.
In fact I want to go on record now complaining because the kitchen sink is missing!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 09, 2017, 01:47:59 AM
Quote from: psxphill;829257
I'm just pointing it out. Whether you choose to ignore the signs is up to you. It killed natami.

Gunnar is on a crusade to get apollo in embedded designs. The Amiga is a test bed and advertising, so fpu/mmu compatibility isn't that important for him. I know I'm not the only one who understands that.

I have no idea what your point is about monitors, it doesn't seem to relate to anything I said.


The comment about monitors was just a generic comment about userfriendliness using the Vampire hardware. Virtually plug and play after installing a few programs.
As much as I enjoyed Indivision on my A1200, it doesnt compare for me personally.
I realise a pimped up A4000 with 060, graphicscard etc will perform amazingly, but thats scarse hardware at premium price. The Vampire provide that in one small card at relativly low price. Without configuration hassle.

Could you expand on what you mean about Gunnars plans regarding Apollo in embedded designs?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 09, 2017, 02:03:41 AM
Quote from: Crom00;829258
I don't think Gunnar hates FPU's. He has stated that purchase a Vampire only if you feel it has the features you need today.
While I have certainly no problem if it provides features you need today, I have problems if it does not provide the features I needed yesterday - since that is what the whole problem is really about.

Quote from: Crom00;829258
The I supposed folks will  then complain the V4 doesn't have a floppy drive controller for floppy compatibility...and that's fine... SO Alright then... it has I/O ports, perhaps someone can fab a floppy port. I dunno beats the hell out of recapping Amigas every 15 years.
I'm really much less concerned about exact reproduction of the hardware. Floppies, Amiga mice, VGA... that's all outdated anyhow, and they are failing and not available as new stock. However, if the FPGA fails to run all my software properly, then that somehow conflicts to - at least my - requirements.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 09, 2017, 02:29:31 AM
@Thomas

Thats a fair attitude to have.

Computers are ultimatly just a tool, and if it cant do what you want/need it to do, then its reasonable to opt out. Thats a objective evaluation noone can fault you for.

Im not going lie, I obviously would want as many as possible to utilize this relativly high performance hardware which brings 100s or 1000+ people up to the specs that only very few had back in the days.
Ofcourse, me only using computers for officework, music and some simple graphics to go with the presentations I make for work; I dont face the same headache as developers like yourself might face. Im not blind to that disparity in userfriendliness based on your workflow and goals.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 09, 2017, 02:51:37 AM
Quote from: psxphill;829255
Exactly. He has always had a hatred for the FPU and MMU compatibility and the fan boys think he's the second coming because he added some opcodes that accelerate some software that doesn't exist yet.

The worst thing you can ever do is have someone with a strong opinion about things and a bunch of enablers.

You need to seek some professional help or at least a few sessions of anger management.  It's obvious that you're not being objective based on your strong emotional responses to anything connected to Gunnar.  Barring that, try a valium....sheesh buddy.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: CodePoet on August 09, 2017, 03:33:51 AM
+1 for Valium - Really helps take the edge off the fact that there's only single-ply toilet paper in the bathrooms at work
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: jj on August 09, 2017, 11:57:35 AM
Quote from: lou_dias;829262
They will always find something to complain about.
In fact I want to go on record now complaining because the kitchen sink is missing!

Hoe is your Wii AOS4 port going ?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 09, 2017, 03:22:51 PM
Quote from: Crom00;829258
He has stated that purchase a Vampire only if you feel it has the features you need today.

And I have yet to see a web page or pdf or anything from "the team" that truthfully lists up the features Vampire cards have today, and perhaps more importantly, what features it lacks. It all drowns in hype, questionable benchmarks and listings about what will (may) come, promises of 100% compatibility and other nonsense. How is one supposed to know what the features are when even half the team do not really seem to know?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Louis Dias on August 09, 2017, 03:30:38 PM
Quote from: JJ;829275
Hoe is your Wii AOS4 port going ?

Don't call me a hoe!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 09, 2017, 03:34:54 PM
Quote from: Niding;829263

Could you expand on what you mean about Gunnars plans regarding Apollo in embedded designs?


If you have followed the evolution of the apollo-core website, that should have been rather obvious. Benchmarks against other soft-cores used in embedded, barely mention of Amiga at all. Over time, this has changed a little, probably as he realised that embedded market may not really be that interested after all, commercial 68k soft-cores exists already there. So, why not instead try to become the creator, owner and licenser of the de-facto CPU for good old Amiga?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 09, 2017, 03:39:42 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829269
You need to seek some professional help or at least a few sessions of anger management.  It's obvious that you're not being objective based on your strong emotional responses to anything connected to Gunnar.  Barring that, try a valium....sheesh buddy.

Why is it that this happens to so many who have been in contact with Gunnar, do you think?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 09, 2017, 04:17:26 PM
Quote from: kolla;829282
Why is it that this happens to so many who have been in contact with Gunnar, do you think?


Because if Gunnar's psyche (or aura) had a smell, it would probably be a mixture of fried electrical wiring and burnt cat hair. :hammer:

Honestly, I'm amazed they've come this far, considering that oh so Amiga combination of hyperbole and fixation.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: jj on August 09, 2017, 04:28:46 PM
Quote from: Iggy;829283
Because if Gunnar's psyche (or aura) had a smell, it would probably be a mixture of fried electrical wiring and burnt cat hair. .

This is one of the funniest things I have read in awhile.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 09, 2017, 05:34:01 PM
Quote from: kolla;829280
If you have followed the evolution of the apollo-core website, that should have been rather obvious. Benchmarks against other soft-cores used in embedded, barely mention of Amiga at all. Over time, this has changed a little, probably as he realised that embedded market may not really be that interested after all, commercial 68k soft-cores exists already there. So, why not instead try to become the creator, owner and licenser of the de-facto CPU for good old Amiga?


So Gunnar is guilty of wanting the product he design/produces to be a sucess in Amiga terms. Outragous!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: F0LLETT on August 09, 2017, 06:05:48 PM
Quote from: lou_dias;829279
Don't call me a hoe!

Doubt thats what he ment. I would guess he ment "How" but hit "e" instead of "w".

Ontopic:-
Is there actually any solid info and pricing on this?
Seems strange announcing this, while still trying to sell current boards.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kamelito on August 09, 2017, 07:51:24 PM
http://www.amigaimpact.org/2017/08/vampire-la-v4-en-photos/ Kamelito
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TribbleSmasher on August 09, 2017, 08:05:14 PM
Thank you for the link.:)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 09, 2017, 10:56:44 PM
Quote from: kolla;829282
Why is it that this happens to so many who have been in contact with Gunnar, do you think?



So far I only see you and psxphill acting that way.  You guys are an army of two.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 10, 2017, 12:24:32 AM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829302
So far I only see you and psxphill acting that way.  You guys are an army of two.


Hmm, I don't always agree with kolla, but he and psxphill aren't the only two that Gunnar has rubbed the wrong way.
And as far as anger management goes, neither I myself nor you have been model examples of rational interaction.

But this could lead us back to my point about the eccentricities that seem inherent in our community.

A good friend of mine a few years back pointed out to me just what a high percentage a 'slightly off' personalities our community seems to attract. It made me, to say the least, a bit uncomfortable.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 10, 2017, 01:35:28 AM
Quote from: Iggy;829309
Hmm, I don't always agree with kolla, but he and psxphill aren't the only two that Gunnar has rubbed the wrong way.


could you explain how are you getting rubbed the right way, so that people dont make uneccessary mistakes in the near future?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 02:15:52 AM
Quote from: Iggy;829309
Hmm, I don't always agree with kolla, but he and psxphill aren't the only two that Gunnar has rubbed the wrong way.
And as far as anger management goes, neither I myself nor you have been model examples of rational interaction.

But this could lead us back to my point about the eccentricities that seem inherent in our community.

A good friend of mine a few years back pointed out to me just what a high percentage a 'slightly off' personalities our community seems to attract. It made me, to say the least, a bit uncomfortable.

Yeah, I probably fall into the category your friend described.  I've been called a lot of worse things than slightly off too!  LOL!

But the vitriol that was used by psxphill to describe Gunnar was more than just over the top and more than just "slightly off".  I doubt that Kolla and psxphill have even met Gunnar.  They can't be objective about anything Apollo or Vampire related because their emotions are in the way.  I certainly don't agree with psxphill when he says
Quote
He has always had a hatred for the FPU and MMU compatibility and the fan boys think he's the second coming because he added some opcodes that accelerate some software that doesn't exist yet.

There have been several new and notable pieces of software that take advantage of the 68080's new instruction set.  And a core FPU does exist and until the kinks get worked out with it we can use Jari's softFPU.  The ability to run Linux or BSD or whatever other OS you can come up with that requires an MMU was never within the scope of the Vampire project and all his b@tching about it won't change that fact.  If he want's so badly to run a *nix variant he should buy a $10 Pi board or one of its clones and stop posting misinformation and throwing childish tantrums at the same time.

Here are just a few of the new programs written to take advantage of the the 68080 and the new instruction set:

Video game "194x Deluxe"  takes advantage of the AMMX instruction set:  https://youtu.be/M0PJHxVN5Ok

Mapparium:  https://youtu.be/mgFx6HwsHjI

CPU resource monitor CPUMon080:  https://youtu.be/jO0_SkHogrI

Mystic Image Viewer:  https://youtu.be/hLR64W_8v_8

Riva Player with AMMX:  https://youtu.be/TClfDy2NzJM

So psxphill's comments about accelerating software that doesn't exist are patently false.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Gulliver on August 10, 2017, 04:34:31 AM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829313
So psxphill's comments about accelerating software that doesn't exist are patently false.

So then 4 pieces of software is a lot! :D

Its the second coming...
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 04:48:31 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;829316
So then 4 pieces of software is a lot! :D

Its the second coming...

I'm surprised you can count that high. Well, actually you can't because it was 5 apps, not 4. That was just a sample of the new software that's out there for the Vampire. There's quite a bit more.  And you're obviously too lazy to even go and check out what's available at the Vampire forums so you should really just stop showing your ignorance now.  You're only embarrassing yourself, if that's even possible.

And yes, the five packages I listed ARE quite a lot when compared to what's been developed for NG Amigas in the past 10 years or so....and classics too.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 10, 2017, 06:38:51 AM
Quote from: wawrzon;829312
could you explain how are you getting rubbed the right way, so that people dont make uneccessary mistakes in the near future?


My first inclination, on being asked to describe being "rubbed the right way"...well, I thought to reference you to my ex-wife, but it seemed a bit crude. :hammer:

I think the first step might be some consideration of the other party's divergent point of view.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 06:49:40 AM
Quote from: Iggy;829324
My first inclination, on being asked to describe being "rubbed the right way"...well, I thought to reference you to my ex-wife, but it seemed a bit crude. :hammer:

I think the first step might be some consideration of the other party's divergent point of view.


I couldn't find an emoji to post that's blushing, but yeah, that was a good one!  LOL!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Gulliver on August 10, 2017, 06:51:22 AM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829317
I'm surprised you can count that high. And actually it was 5 apps, not 4. That was just a sample of the new software that's out there for the Vampire. There's quite a bit more.  And you're obviously too lazy to even go and check out what's available at the Vampire forums so you should really just stop showing your ignorance now.  You're only embarrassing yourself, if that's even possible.

And yes, the five packages I listed ARE quite a lot when compared to what's been developed for NG Amigas in the past 10 years or so....and classics too.


So, you count as valid a 1 level demo of a game that hasnt been finished and is known to be that way since about 5 years. :D

If you havent noticed, there is a place called Aminet, that has seen quite a lot releases for the last 10 years for both Classics and NG. And then you have OS4Depot and the MOS repository, and besides that, there is more stuff that is only released on many developers personal webpages.

But hey, you are right, 4 is a lot! :D
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 07:10:03 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;829327
So, you count as valid a 1 level demo of a game that hasnt been finished and is known to be that way since about 5 years. :D

If you havent noticed, there is a place called Aminet, that has seen quite a lot releases for the last 10 years for both Classics and NG. And then you have OS4Depot and the MOS repository, and besides that, there is more stuff that is only released on many developers personal webpages.

But hey, you are right, 4 is a lot! :D

Don't know where you're getting your info, but the 194x Deluxe game demo using AMMX was only shown 4 months ago.  It may have been based on the earlier non-Deluxe game but AMMX has only been out for about a year or less, so no, this AMMX game hasn't been a 5 year effort and it looks and plays significantly better than the non-Deluxe version you must be confusing it with.  This is the Deluxe version with AMMX:  https://youtu.be/M0PJHxVN5Ok

This is the non-Deluxe 68K SDL version you're referring to: https://youtu.be/Cnrr_lROyTo

I'm quite familiar with those repositories as well as with Aminet.  I even uploaded a newer version of the PLPLOT programmers library to Aminet a few weeks back for classic systems after a few tough days of coding.  See:  http://aminet.net/package/gfx/show/plplot68k-5.0.1  Have you done any coding lately or have all your efforts been restricted to the snide remarks dept?

Took me several days to rework the code and get it compiling on a real Amiga after a 24 year hiatus from Amiga development.  My point is that there is nothing new or exciting about PPC or OS4.  They are both dead ends and the Vampire is the most exciting thing to happen for classic enthusiasts in years.  I wouldn't have undertaken a project like PLPLOT had it not been for the Vampire.  OS4 is still stuck in 2003 and that won't change anytime soon if at all.  My latest endeavors require a 64-bit address space which takes OS4 out of the mix immediately.  So my future efforts will focus on AROS SMP x86_64 and the Vampire for any classic development.  I don't think Hyperion and A-EON can pull off a 64-bit version of OS4, maybe I'm wrong but how long have they been promising SMP and an office suite among other things?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 10, 2017, 07:27:29 AM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829329
...this AMMX game hasn't been a 5 year effort and it looks and plays significantly better than the non-Deluxe version you must be confusing it with.  This is the Deluxe version:  https://youtu.be/M0PJHxVN5Ok


Cool, I haven't seen that before, thanks.
It shows how these non-standard instructions can be implemented in existing software for a clear benefit.

Great way to illustrate the point.

And, by way of explanation, this is the kind of stuff that keep me in Gunnar's corner no matter how he rubs it.
You have to respect good work.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Gulliver on August 10, 2017, 07:47:08 AM
So it is still a game demo that hasnt been finished.

I do code for the Amiga. But that doesnt make me or anyone else a better person, nor makes any arguments more right.

I dont care much about OS4, but where you are wrong is that the OS4 community, which I dont belong/identify with, has certainly released tons of stuff for their platform and some of it is interesting. And it is certainly more than 4 recompiled packages.

It is good that you are excited after 24 years, but it seems your passion is clouding your judgement.
Anyway it is your life, you seem to be a grown up man, and your entitled to believe in the second coming as you wish to.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 10, 2017, 07:53:59 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;829332
...Anyway it is your life, you seem to be a grown up man, and your entitled to believe in the second coming as you wish to.


Actually...he's an IT professional, and Amiga (as it would be for any sane person) is just a hobby.

No one is expecting anything like a 'second coming' for the Amiga.
Really, these personal preferences are solely about what we want for ourselves, not about practicality or market potential.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 07:57:49 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;829332
So it is still a game demo that hasnt been finished.

I do code for the Amiga. But that doesnt make me or anyone else a better person, nor makes any arguments more right.

I dont care much about OS4, but where you are wrong is that the OS4 community, which I dont belong/identify with, has certainly released tons of stuff for their platform and some of it is interesting. And it is certainly more than 4 recompiled packages.

It is good that you are excited after 24 years, but it seems your passion is clouding your judgement.
Anyway it is your life, you seem to be a grown up man, and your entitled to believe in the second coming as you wish to.

You're still having problems with math.  I listed 5 of several applications that take advantage of the 68080 and AMMX instructions and CPUMon080 is not a recompile.  It is a new application and there are more.

See:  http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=3044

But you stick to your false narrative since you can't count and can't deal with facts if that is what keeps your fragile ego intact.

And you're the one with the fixation on religion as you continue to speak of Jesus and a second coming.  You and psxphill must attend the same church.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Gulliver on August 10, 2017, 08:06:52 AM
But, you are the "Cult Member" :D

I have no ego issues. I didnt need to belittle your arguments by separating coders from non coders. I am sorry colleague :D
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 08:10:52 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;829335
But, you are the "Cult Member" :D

I have no ego issues. I didnt need to belittle your arguments by separating coders from non coders. I am sorry colleague :D


I'm not going to waste any more time on you.  You're obviously not equipped to do anything beyond name-calling and snide remarks.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Gulliver on August 10, 2017, 08:18:55 AM
There is no name calling nor bad wishes against you.
It is just a dissagreement between two people, nothing serious. Live with it.
I think you missinterpret my postings.
Anyway I wish you well.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: utri007 on August 10, 2017, 09:27:31 AM
There should be rule to prevent people to post more than 2 posts to one thread.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 10, 2017, 10:01:38 AM
Hey, since when does being IT professional mean anything here?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 10, 2017, 10:23:45 AM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829313
Mapparium:  https://youtu.be/mgFx6HwsHjI

Are you sure you are not joking? Considering how the author has been treated over at the apollo-core forum and IRC, I find it ironic to use mapparium as an example. Also, it is not using AMMX, it is just trying really hard to not use FPU.

Quote
There is a new implementation of Mapparium in pure MIU/Zune code which makes the whole program much faster especially on 68k Amiga. It still needs an RTG card but a non_FPU version is included, but if it is too slow (especially with tracks and routes showing do not blame me, buy a FPU) On the long run MUIMapparium will replace the Mapparium, at the moment it does not have the same features (but rather close)

https://blog.alb42.de/programs/mapparium/

Meaning - the version of mapparium that runs on Vampire is crippled by the lack of FPU.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 10, 2017, 10:31:01 AM
As a snide remark, I can say, as a Vampire user, there is one single piece of code that uses AMMX that I find somewhat useful, though still very limited, and that is FEMU.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: amyren on August 10, 2017, 11:51:21 AM
Given that the vampire v3 is said to be faster than a 68060 at 100Mhz, what can we expect from the V4?

And what about the those IO headers, what are they capable of. Could they be used as some kind of expansion port?

I've been browsing the altera productpages to figure out the speed difference between the FPGS series II and V. It was stated that the Cyclone V was 4000 MIPS, but I could not find a speed comparisation between the Cyclone III and V.

I did find it interesting though that on the Cyclone V development board there was specified 1GB RAM and and also PCIe x4 available.
May this be a possible expansion in a later Vampire revision, or perhaps they will move to Cyclone 10 at some point?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 05:33:23 PM
Quote from: kolla;829341
Are you sure you are not joking? Considering how the author has been treated over at the apollo-core forum and IRC, I find it ironic to use mapparium as an example. Also, it is not using AMMX, it is just trying really hard to not use FPU.



https://blog.alb42.de/programs/mapparium/

Meaning - the version of mapparium that runs on Vampire is crippled by the lack of FPU.

No, you are incorrect.  A non-FPU version of Mapparium called MUIMApparium was created with the Vampire in mind.  The author also created versions for MOS and AROS.
 https://blog.alb42.de/2017/04/22/muimapparium-to-try/

And Mapparium is too slow to run on a bog standard classic Amiga anyway, so your point is moot.

And here is the author's thread about MUIMapparium over at the Vampire Forums:
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=5079


Quote from the author's YouTube page:

Quote
Published on Apr 21, 2017
New implementation of Mapparium in native MUI/Zune, finally it's fast enough to use on a real Amiga 600 (with Vampire). More informations on https://blog.alb42.de


And here is the video of the author running it on an A600 Vampire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgFx6HwsHjI
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: PPC on August 10, 2017, 05:41:55 PM
Quote from: kolla;829342
As a snide remark, I can say, as a Vampire user, there is one single piece of code that uses AMMX that I find somewhat useful, though still very limited, and that is FEMU.


FEMU does not use AMMX (yet)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 10, 2017, 05:50:49 PM
Quote from: kolla;829340
Hey, since when does being IT professional mean anything here?


I don't discount someone's work and educational experience that lightly.

And while we don't always see eye to eye, I understand SF's point about the primary attraction of Amiga being its retro/legacy components.
Honestly, any arguments for the practicality of using this platform in the new millennium are a bit 'out there'.
Its only likely to appeal to the hobbyists with past Amiga experience.

So the V4 has a lot of appeal for a large number of Amiga enthusiasts.

I, for one, was entirely impressed with the recent demos of AmiKit running in 16 bit color via a Vampire board.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TheMagicM on August 10, 2017, 05:54:54 PM
Quote from: kolla;829340
Hey, since when does being IT professional mean anything here?


hey hey hey.. it means stuff and things!  LOL
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 10, 2017, 06:12:31 PM
Quote from: TheMagicM;829375
hey hey hey.. it means stuff and things!  LOL

Well, unless you assume his employers are idiots, what it means is that his work is valuable enough to earn him a living.

$$$ Slightly more than 'stuff and things'.

I'm a big fan of economics, and companies don't spend money without a sound economic reason.

So...you're all entitled to your opinion, but Steve gets paid for his, and his work in the field.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Pat the Cat on August 10, 2017, 06:19:57 PM
Quote from: kolla;829340
Hey, since when does being IT professional mean anything here?

It means something when you actually start earning money from IT, thus, it depends on the individual.

Fondly I remember my first IT lesson at school... old school teacher, learned on computers with round screens that used to be used on radars... George Cantello his name was.

His first words? "The first and ONLY true rule of Information Technology is, you do NOT EVER give away information!

You sell it!" :laughing:
 
 Needless to say, I didn't believe him. Then, now, or at any point in between.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 10, 2017, 06:35:21 PM
Quote from: PPC;829372
FEMU does not use AMMX (yet)


So what's special about the apollo version?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 10, 2017, 06:44:42 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829371
And Mapparium is too slow to run on a bog standard classic Amiga anyway, so your point is moot.

Define "bog standard classic Amiga", please.

It is not untrue that it is crippled by the lack of FPU.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ALB42 on August 10, 2017, 07:18:53 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829371
No, you are incorrect.  A non-FPU version of Mapparium called MUIMApparium was created with the Vampire in mind.  The author also created versions for MOS and AROS.

Thats actually not true, the only reason I had "Vampire in mind" is because thats my only real Amiga with a GFX card. So to test the speed I only have that to try. UAE is very unreal :) and sadly there is no other GFX card for keyboard Amigas currently.
(This was my main reason to buy a Vampire, the GFX card)


I got response from people use MUIMapparium with 68060 and GFX Card (even one crazy guy use it on a 68030, notice also no FPU here).

The implementation was also not triggered by Vampire, I wanted to learn MUI/Zune and overcome some (speed and not speed related) problems on all Platforms. The initial implementation was done with ARM-AROS on a Raspi3 (on vacation, a little computer to take with me). The Video for it was just to show that it is even fast enough to make it run on a real Amiga, no relation to Vampire. (as I said just because its the only one with GFX card) so on the NG platform it will just be very smooth, but this is hard to show in a video.

I really like my Vampire (and MUIMapparium :lol:) but to take MUIMapparium as a example program for Vampire is a little bit strange. There is no special stuff inside for Vampire and will never be.

The thread you mentioned there is the MUIMapparium thread I guess, which was not opened by me, I just responded to it and later add some updates because some people asked for it.

But what I did especially for Vampire was testing the FreePascal compiler... There should be a thread as well from me. I even thought about to include some better support for it on the long run (AMMX,..), ... now... nah ... you you can guess how big my motivation is to do something on this topic.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 07:50:08 PM
Not sure if anyone here has seen this yet, but Gizmodo and The Register have picked up stories about the Vampire:

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/08/theres-a-new-amiga-coming-out-this-year/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/08/09/new_amiga_to_land_in_late_2017/
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 07:54:47 PM
Quote from: kolla;829386
Define "bog standard classic Amiga", please.

It is not untrue that it is crippled by the lack of FPU.


Bog standard classic Amiga:  an unexpanded A500, A600, A2000, A1000, A1200

By your very own statement that makes every one of the above Amigas crippled by definition....simply incorrect.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Wayne on August 10, 2017, 08:10:25 PM
Please trust me when I say that I really hate being the A-hole in the room, but just as I spelled out on Whyzzat.com, "I don't  get it".

Without a solid, modern OS, hardware is irrelevant.  It doesn't matter  how fast it is, how much memory, or anything else...  That is, unless  the new hardware in question is/was never intended to be a serious  device, but more of a tinker box for hobbyists with money to spend...

Really, I would welcome something different, but unless you've got a new, user-friendly and powerful OS (which AmigaOS used to be, about 33 years ago), what could you possibly use it for that a $30 Kano kit can't already do?

Wayne
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 08:18:06 PM
Quote from: ALB42;829389
Thats actually not true, the only reason I had "Vampire in mind" is because thats my only real Amiga with a GFX card. So to test the speed I only have that to try. UAE is very unreal :) and sadly there is no other GFX card for keyboard Amigas currently.
(This was my main reason to buy a Vampire, the GFX card)


I got response from people use MUIMapparium with 68060 and GFX Card (even one crazy guy use it on a 68030, notice also no FPU here).

The implementation was also not triggered by Vampire, I wanted to learn MUI/Zune and overcome some (speed and not speed related) problems on all Platforms. The initial implementation was done with ARM-AROS on a Raspi3 (on vacation, a little computer to take with me). The Video for it was just to show that it is even fast enough to make it run on a real Amiga, no relation to Vampire. (as I said just because its the only one with GFX card) so on the NG platform it will just be very smooth, but this is hard to show in a video.

I really like my Vampire (and MUIMapparium :lol:) but to take MUIMapparium as a example program for Vampire is a little bit strange. There is no special stuff inside for Vampire and will never be.

The thread you mentioned there is the MUIMapparium thread I guess, which was not opened by me, I just responded to it and later add some updates because some people asked for it.

But what I did especially for Vampire was testing the FreePascal compiler... There should be a thread as well from me. I even thought about to include some better support for it on the long run (AMMX,..), ... now... nah ... you you can guess how big my motivation is to do something on this topic.


You're actually helping me make my point because a couple individuals here keep stating that there is no real Vampire development occurring and that anything "new" being developed is simply a re-compile of some very old projects.  Mapparium is not an old project in Amiga terms.  And even you admit that it is crazy to use MUIMapparium on an 030 or lesser CPU.  So you obviously weren't developing this on a classic system for classic bog-standard 68K Amigas, but for accelerated 040/060 (which no one can afford or find anymore), WinUAE, or any other system that has more horsepower than an 030, including a Vampire.  The implementation may not have been triggered by the Vampire, but you say it was developed on one. There is almost zero development for classics on classics these days.  Most programmers use a cross-compiler paired with WinUAE for good reason, or a Vampire. I updated the PLPLOT programming library recently on a classic A1200 using Lattice C 6.58 and even with an 030 accelerator it was a painful experience.  Any further classic development that I undertake will be on a Vampire standalone when it's available and until then, under WinUAE and a Windows-based cross-compiler. Or on AROS and I will back port my AROS apps to OS3.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 10, 2017, 08:23:21 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829392
Bog standard classic Amiga:  an unexpanded A500, A600, A2000, A1000, A1200

By your very own statement that makes every one of the above Amigas crippled by definition....simply incorrect.


Yes, they are indeed crippled in a whole lot of ways. Who would not agree to this?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 08:25:47 PM
Quote from: Wayne;829395
Please trust me when I say that I really hate being the A-hole in the room, but just as I spelled out on Whyzzat.com, "I don't  get it".

Without a solid, modern OS, hardware is irrelevant.  It doesn't matter  how fast it is, how much memory, or anything else...  That is, unless  the new hardware in question is/was never intended to be a serious  device, but more of a tinker box for hobbyists with money to spend...

Really, I would welcome something different, but unless you've got a new, user-friendly and powerful OS (which AmigaOS used to be, about 33 years ago), what could you possibly use it for that a $30 Kano kit can't already do?

Wayne


Wow, you mean there's someone here who actually understands that Amigas are a hobby, not a religion, and not something to obsess over?  You gotta be sh@tting me!  LOL!

You're a rare breed here.  I honestly think we have forum members here who haven't touched a non-Amiga computer since the 80's and who still believe that the hardware and the OS are relevant in 2017.  Rip Van Winkles of the computer world!  LOL!

That ship sailed around 1991.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Gulliver on August 10, 2017, 08:27:29 PM
@Wayne

Yes, it is true, with an old OS there is no reasonable point in new hardware beyond hobbysts.

But then its objective is to be a commercial endeavour, and as such it will work as long as people are willing to buy.

Many people have already pointed out many alternative compatible hardware FPGA choices which are indeed much cheaper, like the one you propose.
 
But then, if someone is willing to pay for something expensive, then there will allways be someone eager to sell exactly that.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 08:30:54 PM
Quote from: kolla;829399
Yes, they are indeed crippled in a whole lot of ways. Who would not agree to this?



Yes, I do agree with you on that point.  And I too am waiting for an FPU in the Vampire core, but an FPU isn't what I'd consider an urgent need.  I can wait and use the softFPU until then, or fire up WinUAE and run my FPU apps there.

I'm also waiting for an MMU but I can be patient there too.  These things will come in time.  The Vampire is a work in progress, but I also understand your frustration.  Nothing ever happens quickly in Amiga land.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 10, 2017, 08:35:13 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829396
Any further classic development that I undertake will be on a Vampire standalone when it's available


Oh, you are one of those who don't have a Vampire, yet are full of opinions about it :hammer:

Well, maybe your views change once you have one and realise that it isn't really that much of a big deal after all.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 08:49:36 PM
Quote from: kolla;829404
Oh, you are one of those who don't have a Vampire, yet are full of opinions about it :hammer:

Well, maybe your views change once you have one and realise that it isn't really that much of a big deal after all.

Yes, maybe you're right.  I may find that development even on a standalone is a PITA and go back to AmiDevCPP and WinUAE.  When I was updating the PLPLOT library on my A1200, I kept asking myself, "Was computing really this slow back in 1992?"  LOL!

I guess it WAS really slow but we just didn't know any better.   We've gotten very spoiled these days and I have to keep reminding myself that the last time I was doing any Amiga coding prior to my latest PLPLOT update was 24 years ago.....that's like a couple centuries in dog years or around 12-16 generations under Moore's Law.

The Vampire has motivated me and I hope that once my standalone arrives that my motivation will continue.  For me, Amiga coding is a hobby that helps me stay sharp on my day job (LIDAR software development), not a religious experience or something that I obsess over, although some think otherwise which is fine.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 10, 2017, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829402
I can wait and use the softFPU until then, or fire up WinUAE and run my FPU apps there.

Well, SoftFPU is not an option with legacy software that you cannot recompile, you are stuck with traps and the FEMU emulator.

Quote
I'm also waiting for an MMU but I can be patient there too.

The MMU is there already, but Gunnar has no plans of exposing it, it is meant to only be used for "internal" stuff (I can imagine, mapping ChipRAM addresses for SAGA and legacy I/O, and many other things)

Quote
These things will come in time.  The Vampire is a work in progress, but I also understand your frustration.  Nothing ever happens quickly in Amiga land.

You don't even get what I am "frustrated" with, at this point I don't care if there is no FPU. I am "frustrated" how the FPU has been (and still is!) marketed as the most glorious piece of excellence for 3 years, without not even one single public demo - ever! Then there was the "68882 compatible" FPU that was "really soon now", but just never was good enough. Then it was "no software use FPU anyways!". Then it was "Oh, and I just have this amazing vision about an even greater FPU, for a bigger FPGA!".

But most of all, I was "frustrated" with being told that what I use my Amiga systems for, is pointless - that the software I use, has no use, that I am idiot for using my Amiga systems for other things than "entertainment". And then an idiot for not being impressed by MPEG1 on classic systems (I mean, come on!)?

And still I wonder where one is supposed to find the actual specs of the current Apollo Core, as neither of the two web sites involved in the project have that information, and only tout superlatives (some very exaggerated), and are very eager to point out "potential features" rather than actual features.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ALB42 on August 10, 2017, 09:07:04 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829396
You're actually helping me make my point because a couple individuals here keep stating that there is no real Vampire development occurring and that anything "new" being developed is simply a re-compile of some very old projects.  Mapparium is not an old project in Amiga terms.  And even you admit that it is crazy to use MUIMapparium on an 030 or lesser CPU.  So you obviously weren't developing this on a classic system for classic bog-standard 68K Amigas, but for accelerated 040/060 (which no one can afford or find anymore), WinUAE, or any other system that has more horsepower than an 030, including a Vampire.  The implementation may not have been triggered by the Vampire, but you say it was developed on one. There is almost zero development for classics on classics these days.  Most programmers use a cross-compiler paired with WinUAE for good reason, or a Vampire. I updated the PLPLOT programming library recently on a classic A1200 using Lattice C 6.58 and even with an 030 accelerator it was a painful experience.  Any further classic development that I undertake will be on a Vampire standalone when it's available and until then, under WinUAE and a Windows-based cross-compiler. Or on AROS and I will back port my AROS apps to OS3.

Oh I dont want prove you right or wrong... just move it to perspective..
I did not made MUIMapparium for Vampire. Point. I do not code more or less because i have it. I create Applications for 68k a long time already I compiled Mapparium, without MUI also for 68k even it make not much sense because too slow, even on a Vampire.
I do not develop on Vampire, thats too slow, because of HD speed. I use cross compilation on Linux. We designed FreePascal that way that you really can write stuff for one Amiga platform and it just compiles and runs for all, without to really care about... so to make an Amiga 68k version (an FPU/non-FPU or an OS4 version) it's just a button click more for me and usually I do dot even try them anymore, thats the reason it took a while before I noticed that SoftFPU slowness. Thats also the main reason for RTG only, because AGA/ECS would need special work

But your conclusion is right, there are some people still writing stuff for classic, even not many. But I'm proudly one of them. :lol:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 10, 2017, 09:09:02 PM
Quote from: kolla;829408
Well, SoftFPU is not an option with legacy software that you cannot recompile, you are stuck with traps and the FEMU emulator.



The MMU is there already, but Gunnar has no plans of exposing it, it is meant to only be used for "internal" stuff (I can imagine, mapping ChipRAM addresses for SAGA and legacy I/O, and many other things)



You don't even get what I am "frustrated" with, at this point I don't care if there is no FPU. I am "frustrated" how the FPU has been (and still is!) marketed as the most glorious piece of excellence for 3 years, without not one single public demo - ever! Then there was the "68882 compatible" FPU that was "really soon now", but just never was good enough. Then it was "no software use FPU anyways!". Then it was "Oh, and I just have this amazing vision about an even greater FPU for a bigger FPGA!".

And still I wonder where one is supposed to find the actual specs of the current Apollo Core, as neither of the two web sites involved in the project have that information, and only tout superlatives (some very exaggerated), and are very eager to point out "potential features" rather than actual features.


I'm not so sure that we will have to wait for Gunnar.  There are still some very talented coders out there.  The softFPU literally came from an unknown, novice assembly coder who wrote the emulator as an exercise to hone his skills.  He just popped up on the Vampire forums one day and offered his code.  We may see more of that in the future.

If you feel you've been cheated, then I suggest you sell your Vampire and just let things go.  You could probably get more out of it now than what you paid for it. It isn't worth making yourself angry over this in the long-term
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 10, 2017, 09:42:08 PM
Quote from: kolla;829399
Yes, they are indeed crippled in a whole lot of ways. Who would not agree to this?

I don't, for one. I have an A2000 because it is basically bullet proof. I upgraded it to ECS, and will upgrade it further with a Vampire.
I can't afford a decked out A4000, but I DO wish I'd bought an A1200 a few years ago since that strikes me as soon as a really nice, compact system.
And if you want to get weird, you can expand an A1200 pretty far.

And, unmentioned, I have my CD32, which will run just about anything that has reasonable specs.

Look, the Amiga chipset wasn't designed with '040 and '060 CPUs in mind.

By the time we got there, we were in sore need of a replacement system, which we never got.

High end Amiga are a kludged nightmare. Vampire helps simplify this situation by rendering the average Amiga a powerhouse.

Amiga snobs don't like it? Tough, because personally I think your investment in that maxed out A4000 makes you look like a fool.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 10, 2017, 09:49:16 PM
Quote from: kolla;829384
So what's special about the apollo version?

To answer myself - what's special is how trapping works differently on the various LC/EC CPUs. Most of emulation apparently is done using the math libraries of the OS, so essientially it is doing what ThoR suggests software should do in the first place when no FPU is found.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 10, 2017, 11:59:59 PM
Quote from: Iggy;829411
I don't, for one. I have an A2000 because it is basically bullet proof. I upgraded it to ECS, and will upgrade it further with a Vampire.


Just plain A2000 just chipram and 68000, no A2620 or A2630?

Quote
I can't afford a decked out A4000, but I DO wish I'd bought an A1200 a few years ago since that strikes me as soon as a really nice, compact system.
And if you want to get weird, you can expand an A1200 pretty far.


Yeah, been there, won't bother again.

Quote
Look, the Amiga chipset wasn't designed with '040 and '060 CPUs in mind.


I don't really see what the chipset has to do with anything here, but the chipset is much more tolerable with 040 and upwards.

Quote

By the time we got there, we were in sore need of a replacement system, which we never got.


Some would argue that we did get a replacement system in retargetable graphics and audio, and the result of this which today is MorphOS.

Quote
High end Amiga are a kludged nightmare. Vampire helps simplify this situation by rendering the average Amiga a powerhouse.


Vampirised Amiga is not less kludgy, in terms of software it is very often a lot more kludgy.

Quote

Amiga snobs don't like it? Tough, because personally I think your investment in that maxed out A4000 makes you look like a fool.


Ah yes, I must be a snob. Of course, that's it. After all, I make more than twice as much per month now than what I paid to "max out" my A3000 back in 1997 with CSPPC/CVPPC. What a foolish investment that was. Never mind that the snobbish Amiga hardware I have owned also was the learning platform for at least 10-15 years, thanks to the ability to not just run AmigaOS, but also capable and modern operating systems, Linux and NetBSD. One day I should sit down and write down all the stuff I have done with and on Amiga over the years. :laughing:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 11, 2017, 01:20:52 AM
Quote from: kolla;829414
Just plain A2000 just chipram and 68000, no A2620 or A2630?


It used to have an A2620 (so it had a math co-processor).

Quote from: kolla;829414
I don't really see what the chipset has to do with anything here, but the chipset is much more tolerable with 040 and upwards.


The chipset didn't evolve nearly as much as the processors (Paula didn't change at all). And the design didn't really work as well as it could have with processors after the '030 because of that.

Quote from: kolla;829414
Some would argue that we did get a replacement system in retargetable graphics and audio, and the result of this which today is MorphOS.


Yes, but the developers have focused on Abox and Amiga compatibility and haven't really added any new features since 2.0 was introduced.

Quote from: kolla;829414
Vampirised Amiga is not less kludgy, in terms of software it is very often a lot more kludgy.


Valid argument.


Quote from: kolla;829414
Ah yes, I must be a snob. Of course, that's it. After all, I make more than twice as much per month now than what I paid to "max out" my A3000 back in 1997 with CSPPC/CVPPC. What a foolish investment that was. Never mind that the snobbish Amiga hardware I have owned also was the learning platform for at least 10-15 years, thanks to the ability to not just run AmigaOS, but also capable and modern operating systems, Linux and NetBSD. One day I should sit down and write down all the stuff I have done with and on Amiga over the years. :laughing:


The couldn't get past the price of entry when the Amiga was current (I make more now too).
I was selling 68K based systems that started at $1000 back then.
So Amiga hardware seemed pretty overpriced.

And its current resale value is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Gulliver on August 11, 2017, 01:31:46 AM
If you feel emotionally attached to Amiga hardware, the Apollo core on a Vampire V2 is a good choice.
If you are looking for speed then Amithlon or Aros are better options. A PC with UAE is not only much faster, but more compatible than anything else.
MorphOS on a Mac is also a pretty decent choice in this regard.
If you are looking for cost efficient standalone hardware, you have the FPGA Arcade and the Mist. And even a Raperri Pi might do the trick.

So the good thing is that there are choices for everyone.
The Apollo-Core sure has its place and merits, the most important being a fast hack on Amiga hardware in a time where new 68060 accelerators are non existant.
The bad thing about it, as kolla has been mentioning, is the exagerated claims on what it can actually deliver.

And of course it doesnt help that the project leader has a lot of communication issues, despite the good will of its team and its community.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: LoadWB on August 11, 2017, 04:27:32 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;829419
And of course it doesnt help that the project leader has a lot of communication issues, despite the good will of its team and its community.


A lot of really good engineers suffer this, and this community lacks the luxury of a go-between for the community and the engineers.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BSzili on August 11, 2017, 07:27:44 AM
Quote from: kolla;829408
You don't even get what I am "frustrated" with, at this point I don't care if there is no FPU. I am "frustrated" how the FPU has been (and still is!) marketed as the most glorious piece of excellence for 3 years, without not even one single public demo - ever! Then there was the "68882 compatible" FPU that was "really soon now", but just never was good enough. Then it was "no software use FPU anyways!". Then it was "Oh, and I just have this amazing vision about an even greater FPU, for a bigger FPGA!".

But most of all, I was "frustrated" with being told that what I use my Amiga systems for, is pointless - that the software I use, has no use, that I am idiot for using my Amiga systems for other things than "entertainment". And then an idiot for not being impressed by MPEG1 on classic systems (I mean, come on!)?

And still I wonder where one is supposed to find the actual specs of the current Apollo Core, as neither of the two web sites involved in the project have that information, and only tout superlatives (some very exaggerated), and are very eager to point out "potential features" rather than actual features.
I think there are many people who agree with this, but don't really bother posting about it, because it will get drowned out by all the hype.
When it comes to the Vampire you are only allowed to praise it, even if you don't own it, or what you say is "inaccurate to say the least". On the other hand if you have any criticism, you better keep it to yourself even if you own multiple cards :roflmao:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 11, 2017, 08:24:27 AM
Quote from: Gulliver;829419
And of course it doesnt help that the project leader has a lot of communication issues, despite the good will of its team and its community.

He is communicating perfectly well, it's what he is communicating that is the issue.

He is a big fish in a small pond. There are loads of people in the world that could do what he is doing or are even better than him. But they are too busy earning money.

Normally it would then come down to it being a hobby where you appeal to the greatest audience, but he's not interested in that either.

It's a bit like how Trumps supporters in the US have enabled him to be in a position that he is not capable of dealing with. Sure the US is likely to survive Trump, and the apollo products are being released. It will just be less good than it could have been. Trump may have actually been a decent president if his supporters weren't alt right, sexist, racist, biggots etc as he would have more reason to appeal to decent people.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 11, 2017, 09:38:04 AM
Quote from: BSzili;829426
I think there are many people who agree with this, but don't really bother posting about it, because it will get drowned out by all the hype.
When it comes to the Vampire you are only allowed to praise it, even if you don't own it, or what you say is "inaccurate to say the least". On the other hand if you have any criticism, you better keep it to yourself even if you own multiple cards :roflmao:


Maybe a few think that way, but I dont have a problem with people critizising Vampire.

Just like when people have comments about AOS4 and PPC, they say what doesnt work, which is fine, but they quite often include to the effect "its %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!ing useless, omg, and anyone using it is deluded fanbois!".
I might agree with the issues they list, but why on earth they need to add less than helpful descriptions of the users and hardware/software that will only make the reciver hostile?
And then you have the predictable exchange that just makes the fronts agressive.

Same goes for Vampire. There are plenty of issues with AOS3, and things that doesnt run as everyone wants it to. The team knows, but as we all know, its WORK IN PROGRESS.
But as usual the comments is often followed by "omg omg omg, lol, useless, crap, fanboi" etc. You get my drift.
It kinda suprises me considering we are supposed to be adults, but just cant help outselves. If we had written at work a critique like we do on these forums, I think we would find ourselves in a human resource meeting pretty quickly. I realise this is a hobby forum, so drawing that paralell is a bit off, but Im sure you are catching my drift.

For some reason whoever prefer AOS3 enjoys bashing AOS4, and vice versa. Those that enjoy AOS4, bashes MorphOS or AROS, and vice versa.

Ive found the lack of communication from hardware/software developers somewhat annoying in the past, but Ive grown to understand it seeing it basically amounts to pissing into the wind for the most part.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 11, 2017, 09:53:10 AM
Quote from: Niding;829428
Same goes for Vampire. There are plenty of issues with AOS3, and things that doesnt run as everyone wants it to. The team knows, but as we all know, its WORK IN PROGRESS.

I understand it's work in progress, but it's not progressing towards a product that would be good for the amiga community as a whole. We could go round and round in circles with me trying to explain why it's not good, but it would be like trying to explain to a pro trump supporter why upsetting mexico is a bad idea. People who don't understand it, don't want to understand it.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-risky-is-it-really/201007/why-changing-somebody-s-mind-or-yours-is-hard-do

Quote from: Niding;829428
But as usual the comments is often followed by "omg omg omg, lol, useless, crap, fanboi" etc.

I only started calling them fan boys after years of dreadful behaviour by the pro apollo supporters acting childishly towards any suggestion that gunnar disagreed with. The behaviour comes from the top down, so get gunnar to fix his attitude and the problems will all disappear. Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 11, 2017, 09:54:08 AM
Quote from: psxphill;829429
I understand it's work in progress, but it's not progressing towards a product that would be good for the amiga community as a whole.



I only started calling them fan boys after years of dreadful behaviour by the pro apollo supporters acting childishly towards any suggestion that gunnar disagreed with. The behaviour comes from the top down, so get gunnar to fix his attitude and the problems will all disappear. Good luck with that.


Maybe we should raise above the kid like behaviour instead of reeinforcing it? Just a thought ;)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 11, 2017, 10:10:28 AM
Quote from: Niding;829430
Maybe we should raise above the kid like behaviour instead of reeinforcing it? Just a thought ;)

There is no point in unilaterally doing it, because then it's seen as a sign of a weakness in the argument. Like taking a knife to a gun fight, "you're so stupid you think you can have a reasonable discussion with me, therefore your argument must be false".

It has to be all parties on both sides, you'll find the people who want Apollo to be the best it can be will fall in when gunnar and his supporters act reasonably.

In any event. Calling someone, who is exhibiting fan boi tendancies, a fan boi is on the tame side compared to what comes back if you give a reasoned argument for why a compatible fpu and mmu would be a good idea.

And yeah it does suck, because I want something good to buy.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BSzili on August 11, 2017, 10:23:03 AM
Quote from: Niding;829428
Maybe a few think that way, but I dont have a problem with people critizising Vampire.

Just like when people have comments about AOS4 and PPC, they say what doesnt work, which is fine, but they quite often include to the effect "its %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!ing useless, omg, and anyone using it is deluded fanbois!".
I might agree with the issues they list, but why on earth they need to add less than helpful descriptions of the users and hardware/software that will only make the reciver hostile?
And then you have the predictable exchange that just makes the fronts agressive.

Same goes for Vampire. There are plenty of issues with AOS3, and things that doesnt run as everyone wants it to. The team knows, but as we all know, its WORK IN PROGRESS.
But as usual the comments is often followed by "omg omg omg, lol, useless, crap, fanboi" etc. You get my drift.
It kinda suprises me considering we are supposed to be adults, but just cant help outselves. If we had written at work a critique like we do on these forums, I think we would find ourselves in a human resource meeting pretty quickly. I realise this is a hobby forum, so drawing that paralell is a bit off, but Im sure you are catching my drift.

For some reason whoever prefer AOS3 enjoys bashing AOS4, and vice versa. Those that enjoy AOS4, bashes MorphOS or AROS, and vice versa.

Ive found the lack of communication from hardware/software developers somewhat annoying in the past, but Ive grown to understand it seeing it basically amounts to pissing into the wind for the most part.
Basically NAxALT.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: amyren on August 11, 2017, 11:28:31 AM
I was looking forward to following this thread, hoping that it could be a refreshing discussion about this new hardware and its current and possible features.
Instead it turned into what seems like an endless rant about its shortcomings and what it probably can't do at the moment (missing FPU etc), and even personal critisism of development team members.

Considering the years of non existent or very expensive hardware for the classic amiga, I can so far only manage to see the positive sides of the vampire series.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 11, 2017, 11:43:37 AM
Quote from: amyren;829434
I can so far only manage to see the positive sides of the vampire series.

Do you want to be bombed with this kind of stuff?

Without and with FEMU.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: PPC on August 11, 2017, 01:01:41 PM
Kolla only the negative side i guess, so that should cancel each other out lol
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 11, 2017, 01:20:17 PM
Quote from: kolla;829435
Do you want to be bombed with this kind of stuff?
An incomplete FPU emulation and a bad JPEG implementation working hand in hand. You don't need an FPU for JPEG.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 11, 2017, 01:44:41 PM
You don't need to make this excuse everytime Vampire fails.
Floating point routines have been a part of our software base for decades.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: clusteruk on August 11, 2017, 02:14:19 PM
Sadly you do with Adpro if you do not have a 68000 :-(

Quote from: Thomas Richter;829438
An incomplete FPU emulation and a bad JPEG implementation working hand in hand. You don't need an FPU for JPEG.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: clusteruk on August 11, 2017, 02:16:02 PM
Amiga emulation on Raspberry Pi out performs all my Amiga's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HZXM6cLVUg

Quote from: Gulliver;829419
If you feel emotionally attached to Amiga hardware, the Apollo  And even a Raperri Pi might do the trick.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 11, 2017, 02:17:59 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;829438
An incomplete FPU emulation and a bad JPEG implementation working hand in hand. You don't need an FPU for JPEG.

I know, but legacy software being what it is, that is how it works.

I am more puzzled by the occasional 8000000B errors that sometimes may pop up during filesystem validation (FFS).
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Pat the Cat on August 11, 2017, 02:49:54 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;829438
An incomplete FPU emulation and a bad JPEG implementation working hand in hand. You don't need an FPU for JPEG.

Correct, I used to load and save JPEGs fine on a standard A2000...

... Kolla, where did you get your copy of AdPro from? It should not behave like that...

... although femu is very new, so the problem could lie there. Or perhaps the combination is the source of the error messages.

Quote from: clusteruk;829442
Sadly you do with Adpro if you do not have a 68000 :-(

WTF? Am I the last Amigan with an original copy? AdPro FPU versions were fine up to and including 68040 based Amigas. Never tried 060.

(deeply puzzled)
 
 Have you the FPU version of AdPro installed? Always included with the install, which defaults to 68000. Use Expert Install to get the FPU version, or drag the icons from floppy to a current install (
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Wayne on August 11, 2017, 03:08:41 PM
Quote from: clusteruk;829443
Amiga emulation on Raspberry Pi out performs all my Amiga's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HZXM6cLVUg
Well done video, and actually something that looks like it'd be fun to have to play with.  Still have no idea what I'd actually DO with it, but it looks like fun..

Wayne
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Gulliver on August 11, 2017, 03:33:44 PM
Great video.

Thanks
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 11, 2017, 04:42:13 PM
Quote from: Wayne;829449
Well done video, and actually something that looks like it'd be fun to have to play with.  Still have no idea what I'd actually DO with it, but it looks like fun..

Wayne


What? You don't do what I do, struggle to get it set up and working and then immediately move on to another project?
You actually DO things with your hardware? :roflmao:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: David Wright on August 11, 2017, 06:05:52 PM
Quote from: psxphill;829427
He is communicating perfectly well, it's what he is communicating that is the issue.

He is a big fish in a small pond. There are loads of people in the world that could do what he is doing or are even better than him. But they are too busy earning money.

Normally it would then come down to it being a hobby where you appeal to the greatest audience, but he's not interested in that either.

It's a bit like how Trumps supporters in the US have enabled him to be in a position that he is not capable of dealing with. Sure the US is likely to survive Trump, and the apollo products are being released. It will just be less good than it could have been. Trump may have actually been a decent president if his supporters weren't alt right, sexist, racist, biggots etc as he would have more reason to appeal to decent people.

If you are going to insult us, get it right. You spelled bigot wrong.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: NorthWay on August 11, 2017, 06:45:46 PM
The Vampire and Apollo core are massive achievements. Well impressive and a prod in the back to others that there are possibilities (and a market that might be cornered if thumbs are twiddles too much).

But I can't for the life of me understand why they expect sw developers to thrive and flock to it when they throw out the best debug tools with the inherent design.WTF seems wholly appropriate here.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 11, 2017, 07:51:30 PM
Quote from: clusteruk;829443
Amiga emulation on Raspberry Pi out performs all my Amiga's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HZXM6cLVUg


Very well made video. Thanks for sharing :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 11, 2017, 08:11:26 PM
Quote from: kolla;829444
I am more puzzled by the occasional 8000000B errors that sometimes may pop up during filesystem validation (FFS).
The FFS certainly does not use the FPU. It goes through the utility.library for some 64bit math, though. The Guru is a line-F trap, though the long arithmetic is in line 4. Hard to say what goes wrong there.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 11, 2017, 08:22:55 PM
Quote from: NorthWay;829468
...they throw out the best debug tools with the inherent design.
 WTF seems wholly appropriate here.


What tools are you referring to and why do you say they were thrown out?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: NorthWay on August 11, 2017, 11:42:24 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;829480
What tools are you referring to and why do you say they were thrown out?

Enforcer and Angel type tools, which are kinda essential to catch many classes of bugs. If you want to use 68080 features then you can't really debug them on a 68060/40 machine either.

"Thrown out" because Gunnar - as far as I understand it and have seen it re-told - does not want to support a Motorola-compatible MMU as it will add slowdowns to memory accesses. A full-blown MMU will have to sit as a filter in-between the cpu and memory, whether it results in slowdowns or not. And it seems Gunnar chose speed.

I don't see myself getting any Apollo powered product without an MMU as I know I'm by far not fault-free enough to do without the tools, and there is plenty enough sw out there that is no better.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ferrellsl on August 12, 2017, 12:04:39 AM
Quote from: NorthWay;829493
Enforcer and Angel type tools, which are kinda essential to catch many classes of bugs. If you want to use 68080 features then you can't really debug them on a 68060/40 machine either.

"Thrown out" because Gunnar - as far as I understand it and have seen it re-told - does not want to support a Motorola-compatible MMU as it will add slowdowns to memory accesses. A full-blown MMU will have to sit as a filter in-between the cpu and memory, whether it results in slowdowns or not. And it seems Gunnar chose speed.

I don't see myself getting any Apollo powered product without an MMU as I know I'm by far not fault-free enough to do without the tools, and there is plenty enough sw out there that is no better.



Ah, I see.  I'm a C/C++ developer so I wasn't even thinking about assembler tools.  I wonder if Philippe Flype who wrote CPUMon080 used some tools available only to the Vampire team to debug and test his code.  I can't imagine he wrote this tool without a debugger as it was written in 100% assembly.  I know he used DevPac 3.18 and here is his code: http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/files/CPUMon080_summer17.s

The Apollo core has an MMU which is not compatible with current 68K CPUs, but Gunnar hasn't released any info on how to access it.  I'm wondering if he's written or modified some tools to use it?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 12, 2017, 12:10:57 AM
But who would buy a Vampire if it came with a core that is slower, but fully replicates existing 040 or 060?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: LoadWB on August 12, 2017, 01:41:42 AM
Quote from: kolla;829496
But who would buy a Vampire if it came with a core that is slower, but fully replicates existing 040 or 060?


But what if it had SATA ports? ;)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 12, 2017, 01:56:11 AM
Quote from: kolla;829496
But who would buy a Vampire if it came with a core that is slower, but fully replicates existing 040 or 060?

Umm...I would. :rtfm:

Quote from: LoadWB;829498
But what if it had SATA ports? ;)

Oh shut up, Butters.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 12, 2017, 01:20:21 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;829479
The FFS certainly does not use the FPU. It goes through the utility.library for some 64bit math, though. The Guru is a line-F trap, though the long arithmetic is in line 4. Hard to say what goes wrong there.


Right. If I find time I may set up a card with whole lot of FFS and trash them on purpose, see if I can find some pattern in the behaviour. For now I use PFS3. :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 12, 2017, 01:22:07 PM
Quote from: Iggy;829500
Umm...I would. :rtfm:


Yeah, same here. Then I would want Vampire for all my systems instead of just goofing around with it on a couple.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: gertsy on August 13, 2017, 02:31:13 AM
Quote from: David Wright;829466
If you are going to insult us, get it right. You spelled bigot wrong.


IMO the label bigot is a bit of a self fulfilling term. By action or by insinuation. You can either do nasty things(negative) or nice things(positive). That makes it really simple but also very difficult.

Back on topic.  Bit keen on the standalone.  Be good if you could kit it to work in an existing Amiga with keyboard.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 13, 2017, 03:10:16 AM
Quote from: gertsy;829529
IMO the label bigot is a bit of a self fulfilling term. By action or by insinuation. You can either do nasty things(negative) or nice things(positive). That makes it really simple but also very difficult.

Back on topic.  Bit keen on the standalone.  Be good if you could kit it to work in an existing Amiga with keyboard.


+1

A floppy port would be nice for replacing an old MB though.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 13, 2017, 04:43:19 AM
Quote from: QuikSanz;829530
+1

A floppy port would be nice for replacing an old MB though.


Silly question: what prevents USB floppy drive?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 13, 2017, 05:14:16 AM
USB floppy that reads Amiga disks? Didn't know one was ever made.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Acill on August 13, 2017, 05:58:47 PM
Will cores for those of us with the V2 500+ still get core updates I hope? Kinda bummed that I have two 500 versions now, but thats life.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Djole on August 13, 2017, 09:30:36 PM
Quote from: Acill;829541
Will cores for those of us with the V2 500+ still get core updates I hope? Kinda bummed that I have two 500 versions now, but thats life.


Gunnar has stated v2 users will still receive updates so you dont need to worry for now....
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 13, 2017, 09:41:55 PM
Quote from: kolla;829507
Yeah, same here. Then I would want Vampire for all my systems instead of just goofing around with it on a couple.


That has been kind of the point we've been making, and I don't know about you, but I feel like I've been butting my head against a wall.
'Sounds like a good idea, if compatibility with standard fpu and mmu operations is incorporated into the design'.

I still don't see why that is an unreasonable request.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Hattig on August 13, 2017, 11:02:06 PM
Yes, without and FPU some software is affected, but the FEMU will allow software that uses the FPU, but is not dependent upon it being performant, to run whereas it wouldn't before. There isn't a lot of this software as far as I know - most should have used the AmigaOS IEEE libraries which would have abstracted the problem of FPU-availability away.

The lack of MMU is clearly a big problem for developers who make use of the tooling built around the MMU for debugging. Given the new custom instructions, this seems lacking to me - even if they have a developer core that is slower but has an MMU, and a fast core without. To me this feels more of a priority, but yeah, a lot of people are waiting on the FPU that has been promised.

I can understand people being a bit peeved that new custom instructions like their integer AMMX stuff have been done before a real FPU or MMU. On the other hand, these people are mostly doing it for not a lot, if they want to have some fun (likely hardware ALU blocks on the FPGA made wiring up AMMX a lot easier than doing a full FPU implementation) who am I to complain...

None of that takes away from the achievement of everyone involved in Vampire and the concept of replacing the Amiga CPU with an FPGA implementation initially. It feels like there is a lot more to come.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 14, 2017, 12:05:26 AM
Quote from: Hattig;829556
There isn't a lot of this software as far as I know - most should have used the AmigaOS IEEE libraries which would have abstracted the problem of FPU-availability away.


It's an interesting experiment to remove the math libraries, and see how much stops working.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 15, 2017, 12:05:16 PM
Quote from: Hattig;829556
On the other hand, these people are mostly doing it for not a lot, if they want to have some fun (likely hardware ALU blocks on the FPGA made wiring up AMMX a lot easier than doing a full FPU implementation) who am I to complain...

Gunnar may not be making much money now, but he has always been clear that he wants to market his softcore to the embedded market and that he makes decisions based on that rather than every single piece of 30 year old Amiga software. It's in his interest to appeal to the type of people who will evangelise his core.

The friction comes in because there are enough people who will be happy to see vampire as an expensive whdload card, with the added promise of the Amiga having completely new development that will make it viable against PC's. They fight off anyone who tries to get FPU/MMU on the table because they are scared that it will upset Gunnar. Who sees this support and has no reason to expand his base, because it's enough.

Which cuts out software that would actually quite cool to run. Because it's closed source, because of the embedded licensing, then Gunnar is able to exert whatever control he wants.

Hopefully someone else will produce a core for the vampire that does appeal to me.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: jj on August 15, 2017, 12:25:30 PM
Quote from: psxphill;829596
Gunnar may not be making much money now, but he has always been clear that he wants to market his softcore to the embedded market and that he makes decisions based on that rather than every single piece of 30 year old Amiga software. It's in his interest to appeal to the type of people who will evangelise his core.

The friction comes in because there are enough people who will be happy to see vampire as an expensive whdload card, with the added promise of the Amiga having completely new development that will make it viable against PC's. They fight off anyone who tries to get FPU/MMU on the table because they are scared that it will upset Gunnar. Who sees this support and has no reason to expand his base, because it's enough.

Which cuts out software that would actually quite cool to run. Because it's closed source, because of the embedded licensing, then Gunnar is able to exert whatever control he wants.

Hopefully someone else will produce a core for the vampire that does appeal to me.

 is the speed all about the core or is some of the underlying fgpa.  Could minimig or one of the others be converted to run on this hardware ?
 
 Do any of them have MMU/FPU ?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Gulliver on August 15, 2017, 01:24:20 PM
No embedded commercial endeavour and no hope for any asic will even surface if the Apollo core doesnt get rid of Intel and Motorola (now NXP) instructions (AMMX and ColdFire).

If you have a company will you use a design that will cause you an assured lawsuit?

Would you invest hundreds of thousands dollars for an asic on a design that infringes the IP of two of the biggest industry leaders, so they can sue you till death?

They havent sued Apollo guys yet, because their design is sold in a tiny niche on a very small market, that is why they have gone under the radar. And also there is still not much money to make out of them yet if they sue them right now.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 15, 2017, 02:51:40 PM
Quote from: Gulliver;829601
If you have a company will you use a design that will cause you an assured lawsuit?
Strangely, I made the very same comment years ago when Gunnar first told me about the Natami. He was quite confident that no such problem would arise. Whether that's true I cannot say, but at least any patent on the instruction set itself run out by now.

On the other hand, it's now Qualcomm, and yes, they are known for a very strict patent policy. )-:

Thus, if there are any IPs in it, they are probably not back from Motorola times, though IBM might claim them in worst case. Gunnar is AFAIK an IBM empolyee, and the typical statement in contracts is that IPs you generate in your spare time are with the employer. Probably not enforcable by German law, though.

So, while the instruction set itself is probably not quite the source of the problem, there might be other know-how in the design that may be "interesting" for the usual suspects.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 15, 2017, 02:58:34 PM
NXP actually allows Coldfire V1 to be incorporated into designs free of charge.
And I've never heard of anyone facing legal challenges for recreating 68K functionality in FPGAS.
In fact, many companies selling proprietary cores for the 6809 and the 68000, so I don't see this as being a serious problem.

The use and promotion of operating system software based on pirated code (ApolloOS)? That is a problem.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Djole on August 15, 2017, 05:58:21 PM
Quote from: JJ;829599
is the speed all about the core or is some of the underlying fgpa.  Could minimig or one of the others be converted to run on this hardware ?
 
 Do any of them have MMU/FPU ?



I am sure they could, but the soft cores used in minimig and any other (Amiga) FPGA 68k board are not even in the same ballpark as Apollo core....
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Nickman on August 15, 2017, 06:19:50 PM
Quote from: Hattig;829556

The lack of MMU is clearly a big problem for developers who make use of the tooling built around the MMU for debugging. Given the new custom instructions, this seems lacking to me - even if they have a developer core that is slower but has an MMU, and a fast core without. To me this feels more of a priority, but yeah, a lot of people are waiting on the FPU that has been promised.

I can understand people being a bit peeved that new custom instructions like their integer AMMX stuff have been done before a real FPU or MMU. On the other hand, these people are mostly doing it for not a lot, if they want to have some fun (likely hardware ALU blocks on the FPGA made wiring up AMMX a lot easier than doing a full FPU implementation) who am I to complain...

None of that takes away from the achievement of everyone involved in Vampire and the concept of replacing the Amiga CPU with an FPGA implementation initially. It feels like there is a lot more to come.


Think Gunnar said that a FPU takes like 15000LE and AMMX is less then 1000LE. Plus the foundation used in AMMX could be reused for a simpler FPU then the full 80bit apollo FPU that they have now.
And Gunnar and the rest of the team has on several occations said that buy the Vampire and only look at existing features not things that can or will come in the future. Dont think they have forced anyone to buy anything?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 15, 2017, 09:46:23 PM
So what are the existing features?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BozzerBigD on August 16, 2017, 12:09:02 AM
@Hattig

Most of the software that would benefit from a speed up probably needs a FPU; Quake, Lightwave, etc. AlienBreed 3D 2 seems to be the exception but Lightwave would be more fun as would Quake and Quake 2. BOR is fun but limited in longevity. MP3 playing is fun but a Prisma would do the same thing. FPU support would silence the nay-sayers to be honest. It was a good idea to get some AGA functionality and 060 speeds on A600 and A500 machines but for A1200 and Big Box Amigans I'm guessing the Vampire will be a harder sell as most of them have an accelerator already with MMU and FPU support!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Crom00 on August 16, 2017, 01:17:04 AM
So is anyone making accelerators that can match an 060 in performance that we can purchase today?

Vampire is, but sans FPGA FPU. I'd be happy with a 100mhz 060ec card with 128 megs, SD card, Network capability, RTG gfx with HDMI out and flicker fixing (via ecs and AGA through HDMI). But that type pf  060 card doesn't exist at a reasonable price....it has never existed... sadly it may never exist so I Got a Vampire.

Sure it's got some kinks but 060's don't exist anymore, they stopped making them.
The late Dave Needle said in the special edition VIVA Amiga interview that if he was doing an Amiga product today he would use an FPGA. That's good enough for me.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 16, 2017, 01:19:54 AM
Quote from: BozzerBigD;829627
@Hattig

Most of the software that would benefit from a speed up probably needs a FPU; Quake, Lightwave, etc. AlienBreed 3D 2 seems to be the exception but Lightwave would be more fun as would Quake and Quake 2. BOR is fun but limited in longevity. MP3 playing is fun but a Prisma would do the same thing. FPU support would silence the nay-sayers to be honest. It was a good idea to get some AGA functionality and 060 speeds on A600 and A500 machines but for A1200 and Big Box Amigans I'm guessing the Vampire will be a harder sell as most of them have an accelerator already with MMU and FPU support!


Except maybe for the A2000 owners as they do not have access to really fast accelerators. These Amigans are quite likely to find this attractive, especially with AGA functionality.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Crom00 on August 16, 2017, 01:29:10 AM
Quote from: Iggy;829629
Except maybe for the A2000 owners as they do not have access to really fast accelerators. These Amigans are quite likely to find this attractive, especially with AGA functionality.


Damn straight. I route all the cables out of the back and AGA on an A2000 is pretty neat.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 16, 2017, 02:03:51 AM
Quote from: Crom00;829631
Damn straight. I route all the cables out of the back and AGA on an A2000 is pretty neat.

Yep, I may come off as a bit 'dicky' because of my push for an MMU and an FPU, but outside of that, I think this will do quite nicely on my old tank A2000.
And you simply can't kill these systems, they generally don't even need recapping.
Big, solid, looks like a serious desktop computer.
Once I get the hard drives sorted out, I want to move to IDE, I'll be quite set.

Gunnar and I have had our differences (we're both an bit excentric and outspoken), but with the Vampire V4, he's definitely forgiven.

This should operate at warp speed.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 16, 2017, 02:21:02 AM
As you will see I am not knowledgeable in this area but, if a full FPU was put in the FPGA could some MMU functions be put in software as it looks as though Gunnar is opposed to a full MMU in the FPGA?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: gregthecanuck on August 16, 2017, 09:25:53 AM
@QuikSanz -

The Apollo core does have an MMU implementation. However it is not backwards-compatible with previous Motorola designs.

It supports new features such as non-executable memory. This is pretty much an expectation of any modern MMU. The MMU has a "modern, forward-looking" design instead of being compatible with 20+ year old designs in the 68060 and earlier generations.

There are rumours the full FPU will make its debut in the V4 product but that is all they are at the moment. My understanding is the FPU took a back seat to getting the chipset reimplementation logic completed for the V4. An interim FPU emulator "femu" has released that works for all non-FPU Amigas. It does not run at the speed one would expect of a native FPU on a 100+ MHz 68060 but it allows programs to run that would otherwise fail.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 16, 2017, 10:28:14 AM
Quote from: gregthecanuck;829640
it allows programs to run that would otherwise fail.


Or allows programs to fail that would otherwise not run :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 16, 2017, 10:36:23 AM
Quote from: gregthecanuck;829640
@QuikSanz -

The Apollo core does have an MMU implementation. However it is not backwards-compatible with previous Motorola designs.

It supports new features such as non-executable memory. This is pretty much an expectation of any modern MMU. The MMU has a "modern, forward-looking" design instead of being compatible with 20+ year old designs in the 68060 and earlier generations.


I am speculating that the MMU in Apollo Core is mostly used to move memory addresses around so that AmigaOS and its apps find what they expects at the addresses they expects. With multithreaded I/O-operatings, legacy I/O, DMA, SAGA and kickstart protection, it should be quite busy already.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: gregthecanuck on August 16, 2017, 02:10:40 PM
I believe it is also a dual-ported design. It also solves cache coherency issues present in older 68K generations... but don't quote me on that...  going by my conveyor-belt memory.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 16, 2017, 03:53:24 PM
But my question is: can some missing stuff be dealt with by some programming (software).
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: gregthecanuck on August 17, 2017, 02:11:31 AM
Quote from: QuikSanz;829652
But my question is: can some missing stuff be dealt with by some programming (software).


Sure.

On the FPU - there is the 'femu' emulation software.

On the MMU - any tools or utilities that use MMU functionality would need an update to detect the 68080 MMU and call it correctly. However, as far as I know, the MMU has not been exposed to programmers at the point. The design may still be in flux...
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 17, 2017, 03:13:49 AM
Quote from: gregthecanuck;829662
Sure.

On the FPU - there is the 'femu' emulation software.

On the MMU - any tools or utilities that use MMU functionality would need an update to detect the 68080 MMU and call it correctly. However, as far as I know, the MMU has not been exposed to programmers at the point. The design may still be in flux...


One more time. There is FEMU emulation software and ZERO FPU on board.

There is MMU unknown software onboard. So MEMU? emulation possible?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BSzili on August 17, 2017, 08:30:40 AM
Quote from: kolla;829626
So what are the existing features?
It's very strange that people who say "buy it for the existing features" have no answer to this ;)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: gregthecanuck on August 17, 2017, 08:50:51 AM
Quote from: QuikSanz;829664
One more time. There is FEMU emulation software and ZERO FPU on board.

There is MMU unknown software onboard. So MEMU? emulation possible?


I see where this is going. I am trying to give you what I understand to be the most up to date information. If this product isn't for you then there are other great accelerator products out there.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 17, 2017, 08:54:54 AM
Quote from: BSzili;829669
It's very strange that people who say "buy it for the existing features" have no answer to this ;)


Thats because you seemingly dont want to read what many has been saying;

-I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision.
-I enjoy the responsive Workbench.
-I enjoy the productivity + music in the background without the system grinding to a halt.

Im not a developer or a poweruser, so my list probably seems like "lol", but Im pretty sure userfriendliness and responsiveness of the system is a BIG positive for most people.

Ofcourse its a mixed bag for developers based on what Ive read. More powerful design, but lackluster in development tools for the Vampire spesific core features. I get that.

I guess you could respond with "The points you listed you could get from WinUAE and Amikit!" or "a beefed up A4000 with xyz cards would be able to deliver the same".
Yes, but at what pricetag?
Emulation is free ofcourse, but A4000 and legacy hardware, nope.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 17, 2017, 09:06:29 AM
Quote from: Niding;829671
-I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision.


Why do you hate Indivision?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 17, 2017, 09:12:31 AM
Quote from: psxphill;829672
Why do you hate Indivision?


Who says I hate Indivision? I got a Mk 2 in my A1200, but compared to the overall exprience I have with my V600, I dont miss using it.
It defintly served its purpose (and still does, the few times I boot up my A1200).
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 17, 2017, 09:26:46 AM
Quote from: Niding;829673
Who says I hate Indivision?

You said that you enjoyed using HDMI without Indivision, which implies that using HDMI with Indivision wasn't enjoyable.

If you were neutral about Indivision then you wouldn't have mentioned it.

How do you think your girlfriend would feel if you said "I enjoy going to the cinema without my girlfriend".

Quote from: Iggy;829552
That has been kind of the point we've been making, and I don't know about you, but I feel like I've been butting my head against a wall.
'Sounds like a good idea, if compatibility with standard fpu and mmu operations is incorporated into the design'.

I still don't see why that is an unreasonable request.

It appears to me that all requests are considered unreasonable, because if it was reasonable then Gunnar would have implemented it already.

He has previously said that he wants to sell apollo as an embedded softcore, similar to arm, where most people don't need 680x0 fpu and mmu compatibility. Even if he targeted people looking for a coldfire or cpu32 replacement, most of them didn't have an fpu or mmu and those that did weren't 680x0 compatible either. This is his justification, you would need to show that there is money to be made by supporting them. He only needs enough people in the Amiga market to prove that his design works & there are enough people that overlook the lack of fpu & mmu to achieve that.

If apollo does take off like arm has, then I think it's incredibly likely that he'll walk away from the ungrateful Amiga market and take his closed source code with him.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 17, 2017, 09:33:14 AM
@psxphill

You are just fishing for conflicts.

Indivision is something many of us can compare and relate to. I enjoy Jens's hardware, and as I said, it has served its purpose. But compared to the userfriendliness of Vampire it has its shortcomings. That is obviously not only down to the Indivision, but the fact that my Blizzard 030 lacks the power to run Workbench well enough when you increase the resolution and colors+music in the background.

Making the girlfriend argument is pure bullcrap. Shes not a tool to be used for a certain pupose. Computers are, and they dont have feelings. Im sure Jens dont mind and understand the difference in hardware, plus he has gotten money from me several times.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Linde on August 17, 2017, 09:52:57 AM
Quote from: psxphill;829672
Why do you hate Indivision?


The logical leap from "I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision" to this is almost impressive.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 17, 2017, 10:22:49 AM
Quote from: Linde;829676
The logical leap from "I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision" to this is almost impressive.

No, it's exactly what was written. I cannot be held responsible if english is not your first language.

It's a much bigger leap from:

"I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision"

to:

"I enjoy Jens's hardware, and as I said, it has served its purpose. But compared to the userfriendliness of Vampire it has its shortcomings. That is obviously not only down to the Indivision, but the fact that my Blizzard 030 lacks the power to run Workbench well enough when you increase the resolution and colors+music in the background."

Which is still not clear why vampire hdmi output is more enjoyable than Indivision. If it's only the CPU the affects it then it nullifies the point entirely.

Quote from: Niding;829675
Making the girlfriend argument is pure bullcrap.

My interpretation is the correct english interpretation, there are no magic get out clauses because one is a person.

Here is another analogy: "I enjoy going out without my phone". It's safe to infer that you don't enjoy going out WITH your phone, or you'd write the sentence differently.

You either meant what you wrote or you didn't. Being so defensive about it makes it look like I was right, I'm prepared to accept that you didn't really think about what you wrote and you like being abusive when questioned.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 17, 2017, 10:40:16 AM
"there are no magic get out clauses because one is a person."

Wow.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: mongo on August 17, 2017, 10:55:26 AM
Quote from: psxphill;829677
No, it's exactly what was written. I cannot be held responsible if english is not your first language.


English is my first language. You're wrong.

Quote from: psxphill;829677
Here is another analogy: "I enjoy going out without my phone". It's safe to infer that you don't enjoy going out WITH your phone, or you'd write the sentence differently.


No. It's not safe to infer that at all. It is totally possible to enjoy going out without your phone and enjoy going out with your phone. Also, that statement in no way implies that you hate your phone, as you seem to think.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Linde on August 17, 2017, 11:07:48 AM
Quote from: psxphill;829677
No, it's exactly what was written. I cannot be held responsible if english is not your first language.


I'm not sure "exactly" means what you think it means. Niding never even used the word "hate" and a reasonable person would not draw the conclusion that he does. You're the outlier here, and it's not because you're exceptionally good at English.

Quote from: psxphill;829677
Here is another one: "I enjoy going out without my phone". I think it's safe to infer that you don't enjoy going out WITH your phone.


Here are a couple of other examples: I enjoy taking a bath, I enjoy a cold beer and I enjoy being awake. Is it safe to infer that mean I *hate* not taking a bath, *hate* not drinking and *hate* sleeping? Because it's true that I like all those things, but somehow I'm not a wrinkled, sleep deprived alcoholic. Maybe you can help me figure this out, since English is not my first language. Apparently, one can use the English language to take a baseless illogical conclusion and turn it into "exactly what was written" without a hint of reasoning. You must teach me this magic language.

Quote from: psxphill;829677
You either meant what you said or you didn't, however being so defensive about it makes it sound like I was right.


To whom? I am pretty sure that you only speak for yourself in this matter, and why should anyone care what you think?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 17, 2017, 11:15:35 AM
Quote from: mongo;829679
No. It's not safe to infer that at all. It is totally possible to enjoy going out without your phone and enjoy going out with your phone. Also, that statement in no way implies that you hate your phone, as you seem to think.

If you enjoyed both then you wouldn't bother specifying it, OR expect that people who do understand english would not be able to understand you.

Quote from: Linde;829680
I'm not sure "exactly" means what you think it means. Niding never even used the word "hate" and a reasonable person would not draw the conclusion that he does.

He didn't use the word hate, but it's an antonym of enjoy. Which he implied in the way he wrote the sentence.

Quote from: Linde;829680
To whom? I am pretty sure that you only speak for yourself in this matter, and why should anyone care what you think?

Ah, so it's ok to bully the person who bothers to learn english. Gotcha.

Quote from: Linde;829680
Here are a couple of other examples: I enjoy taking a bath, I enjoy a cold beer and I enjoy being awake. Is it safe to infer that mean I *hate* not taking a bath, *hate* not drinking and *hate* sleeping?

No it's not safe to infer that, but your analogies aren't relevant as they don't cover the "without ...".

If he'd said "I enjoy Workbench RTG/HDMI" then that is equivalent to "I enjoy taking a bath".

If you said "I enjoy taking a bath without hot water" then it changes when you enjoy taking the bath to only include the times there is no hot water.

If you meant something like "I can enjoy taking a bath without hot water", "I sometimes enjoy taking a bath without hot water" or "I prefer taking a bath without hot water". Then you should say so. If instead the temperature of the water is irrelevant, then it's weird to even mention it.

Words mean something, it's impossible to know if someone used the wrong words or meant what they wrote. If you're vague then don't get defensive if someone questions what you meant. It's pretty pointless to guess what someone means and then argue that that is what they definitely meant.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Djole on August 17, 2017, 11:46:08 AM
I hate Indivision ! It sucks, Vampire HDMI out is much better... :P
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BSzili on August 17, 2017, 11:59:06 AM
Quote from: Niding;829671
Thats because you seemingly dont want to read what many has been saying;

-I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision.
-I enjoy the responsive Workbench.
-I enjoy the productivity + music in the background without the system grinding to a halt.

Im not a developer or a poweruser, so my list probably seems like "lol", but Im pretty sure userfriendliness and responsiveness of the system is a BIG positive for most people.

Ofcourse its a mixed bag for developers based on what Ive read. More powerful design, but lackluster in development tools for the Vampire spesific core features. I get that.

I guess you could respond with "The points you listed you could get from WinUAE and Amikit!" or "a beefed up A4000 with xyz cards would be able to deliver the same".
Yes, but at what pricetag?
Emulation is free ofcourse, but A4000 and legacy hardware, nope.
Thanks for proving my point :lol:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 17, 2017, 12:09:42 PM
@BSzili

How so?

Just cause some of us, like myself, isnt developers, it invalidates what Vampire brings to the table? The performance boost and memory is on its own a big sellingpoint (again, for me).

Does the current lack of compiler support of different flavours (other than asm) invalidate the features of the core itself? The potential is there, but not utilized unless you are familiar with ASM (correct me if Im wrong, thats my impression).

I would personally like to see higher level languages like Hollywood support/have plugins for Vampire. But again, the raw performance boost thru processing power is enough to make good use of Hollywood.

The way you comment basically signals to me "Thanks for proving my point, but by the way, we should all ditch all Amiga flavours (hardware and OS), cause Wintel does it all better! Be it AROS, Morphos, AOS etc.
I assume thats not what you are saying tho.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 17, 2017, 12:16:29 PM
Quote from: psxphill;829677
No, it's exactly what was written.


Oh shut up, butthead, stop being such a dumbass - the quote was...

Quote

what many has been saying;

-I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision.


Niding was paraphrasing Vampire users, not stating an opinion.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Djole on August 17, 2017, 12:23:51 PM
Quote from: BSzili;829669
It's very strange that people who say "buy it for the existing features" have no answer to this ;)


Is it that hard to read about the features on the official site ?

Or should Gunnar pay a visit to every Amiga user and draw it out to them ?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 17, 2017, 12:24:11 PM
Quote from: BSzili;829669
It's very strange that people who say "buy it for the existing features" have no answer to this ;)


Because there is no answer to this, there is nowhere to point for info.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 17, 2017, 12:27:27 PM
Quote from: Djole;829686
Is it that hard to read about the features on the official site ?

And which site is that?

I thought http://www.apollo-accelerators.com - but Gunnar said information there is questionable at best, because it is maintained by volunteers outside the team.

Also - it not at all updated.

Quote
Or should Gunnar pay a visit to every Amiga user and draw it out to them ?

No, he should just maintain a relevant feature list, very much like
http://www.apollo-core.com/index.htm?page=features

The product page
http://www.apollo-core.com/index.htm?page=products
does not spell out features in any meaningful way.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: jj on August 17, 2017, 12:30:04 PM
Quote from: Djole;829682
I hate Indivision ! It sucks, Vampire HDMI out is much better... :P

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Djole on August 17, 2017, 12:33:19 PM
Quote from: kolla;829688
And which site is that?

I thought http://www.apollo-accelerators.com - but Gunnar said information there is questionable at best, because it is maintained by volunteers outside the team.

Also - it not at all updated.



No, he should just maintain a relevant feature list, very much like
http://www.apollo-core.com/index.htm?page=features

The product page
http://www.apollo-core.com/index.htm?page=products
does not spell out features in any meaningful way.


I am sure you are aware of the HW features. You can read more about the softcore here: http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/start

And you can always visit the IRC channel and communicate with the team directly....
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Linde on August 17, 2017, 12:35:17 PM
Quote from: psxphill;829681
If you enjoyed both then you wouldn't bother specifying it, OR expect that people who do understand english would not be able to understand you.


What if you enjoy both but one more than the other? Does that case simply not exist in your world?

Quote from: psxphill;829681
He didn't use the word hate, but it's an antonym of enjoy. Which he implied in the way he wrote the sentence.


All right, so not doing something automatically implies the antonym, gotcha. That's flawless reasoning. I am not searching for my remote control, so I am hiding it. The glass isn't empty, so it is full. You're not my husband, so you're my wife.

Quote from: psxphill;829681
Ah, so it's ok to bully the person who bothers to learn english. Gotcha.


I'm asking you why we should care what you think. No one agrees with you and you haven't been able to make a single reasonable point in your favor, so the question is an honest call for you to give us sufficient reason to care about your opinion, not made with the intention to bully.


Quote from: psxphill;829681
No it's not safe to infer that, but your analogies aren't relevant as they don't cover the "without ...".


But that shouldn't matter, since the antonym of "enjoy" is "hate," right? Your reasoning isn't only flawless, it's consistent too, right? Let's for a moment assume your magical system of logic, though, and think of some more examples that further cement your impeccable reasoning and outstanding comprehension of English. How about: I enjoy walking without a particular destination, I enjoy drinking soda without a straw, I enjoy resting without a care in the world and I enjoy bathing without bath salts. Again, all apply to me and of course I absolutely hate going places, drinking soda without a straw, having responsibilities and bath salts. Those are obviously the worst things I can think of! Can you help me with this English language thing now?

It must be fun setting up your own personal system of semantics with convoluted criteria that no one else agrees with just to be rude to someone on an Amiga forum. The fact remains that this is what *you* think, and I can only imagine the awkward situations you must have ended up in throughout your life if you actually apply this consistently.

Quote from: psxphill;829681
Words mean something, it's impossible to know if someone used the wrong words or meant what they wrote. If you're vague then don't get defensive if someone questions what you meant. It's pretty pointless to guess what someone means and then argue that that is what they definitely meant.


You didn't question what he meant. You decided that he meant that he hated the Indivision and asked a different question based on that assumption. Even after Niding explained what he meant you insist on your esoteric interpretation although no one else does. Again, you're the outlier here, and the basis of language is consensus.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: jj on August 17, 2017, 12:35:21 PM
Quote:
      Originally Posted by Niding (http://www.amiga.org/forums/web/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=829671#post829671)
 -I enjoy being able to run Workbench RTG/Thru HDMI without Indivision.

 
 
Quote from: psxphill;829672
Why do you hate Indivision?

I do not know anyone who would infer that, from that sentence.  I think it would be safe to assume that using the vampire is a better/more enjoyable experience, not that the person hates Indivision.
 
 That is some truly impressive purposeful misinterpretation of that sentence.
 
 The best you could infer is that using Indiviison  with HDMI is not enjoyable,  which is a country mile away from hate
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BSzili on August 17, 2017, 01:18:59 PM
Quote from: Djole;829686
Is it that hard to read about the features on the official site ?

Or should Gunnar pay a visit to every Amiga user and draw it out to them ?
If by official site you mean http://apollo-accelerators.com, then the information there "less than accurate" according to the Apollo Team. If you are talking about http://www.apollo-core.com, then you probably don't know that the features listed there doesn't reflect what the Vampire has, because they are separate products. This information also comes from the Apollo Team, it's from this very forum.
If you have any other "official website" which has a list of features the Vampire currently has, please share it with us.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 17, 2017, 02:22:24 PM
Quote from: Djole;829691
I am sure you are aware of the HW features. You can read more about the softcore here: http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/start

And you can always visit the IRC channel and communicate with the team directly....


... where Gunnar will tell you not to trust anything on the wiki you mention.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Djole on August 17, 2017, 03:12:08 PM
Quote from: kolla;829698
... where Gunnar will tell you not to trust anything on the wiki you mention.

 The HW specs are very clear, right ? Type of FPGA, amount of memory, slots, connectors....

If you dont trust the wiki, go and ask Gunnar or other team members, they are very happy to answer any technical question.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BSzili on August 17, 2017, 04:22:28 PM
Quote from: Djole;829686
Is it that hard to read about the features on the official site ?

Or should Gunnar pay a visit to every Amiga user and draw it out to them ?

Quote from: Djole;829699
The HW specs are very clear, right ? Type of FPGA, amount of memory, slots, connectors....

If you dont trust the wiki, go and ask Gunnar or other team members, they are very happy to answer any technical question.

Which one is it? Should everybody go and ask Gunnar individually about what features the Vampire has, or shouldn't? :confused: Also I'm still looking for that official website with this info.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Djole on August 17, 2017, 04:43:28 PM
Quote from: BSzili;829700
Which one is it? Should everybody go and ask Gunnar individually about what features the Vampire has, or shouldn't? :confused: Also I'm still looking for that official website with this info.


Vampire features are very clear. Altera Cyclone 3 FPGA, 128MB Ram, microSD card slot, V500+ version has IDE and expansion port as extra. But you can keep waiting, I dont think anybody cares....
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BSzili on August 17, 2017, 05:15:03 PM
Quote from: Djole;829701
Vampire features are very clear. Altera Cyclone 3 FPGA, 128MB Ram, microSD card slot, V500+ version has IDE and expansion port as extra. But you can keep waiting, I dont think anybody cares....
Thanks for you too for proving my point. Next! :hammer:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Nickman on August 17, 2017, 05:42:50 PM
Vampire 600 v2 and Vampire 500 V2+ is delivered with the Gold 2 version of the Apollo core.

What you get is a 100% 68k cpu that is:
-Fully Pipelined
-Superscalar
-Executes up to 4 instructions per clock cycle
-Two address calculation engines
-Two integer execution engines
-Market leading code density
-Optimal cache utilization
-Separate data and instruction caches, supporting concurrent fetch/read/write per clock cycle
-Automatic memory prefetching
-Memory stream detection
-Store buffer
-Branch prediction

also upgrades as
- New Special Purpose Register (including rich set of Performance counters)
- 64 Bit wide Register (Als Dn-Regs are 64 bit wide)
- Apollo has 16 Pointer Registers and 32 Data register it can use.
- These Registers can be used both with AMMX and with every normal instruction.
- AMMX
- MPU 'Memory Protection' Unit, that allows to detects and protects from Illegal Memory Access
- CPU counters

AMMX is the 68k version of the MMX instruction set from INTEL.
-Both MMX and AMMX allow to run SIMD instructions.
-Both support the same type of operations.
-Both allow to operate directly on Register or to use Memory as Input operand.
-AMMX enhanced MMX in such a way that if offers
a) 3 Operand operations
b) Does not limit the programmer to 8 Register but allows him to use up to 32 Registers.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: David Wright on August 17, 2017, 06:13:06 PM
Quote from: Nickman;829706
Vampire 600 v2 and Vampire 500 V2+ is delivered with the Gold 2 version of the Apollo core.

What you get is a 100% 68k cpu that is:
-Fully Pipelined
-Superscalar
-Executes up to 4 instructions per clock cycle
-Two address calculation engines
-Two integer execution engines
-Market leading code density
-Optimal cache utilization
-Separate data and instruction caches, supporting concurrent fetch/read/write per clock cycle
-Automatic memory prefetching
-Memory stream detection
-Store buffer
-Branch prediction

also upgrades as
- New Special Purpose Register (including rich set of Performance counters)
- 64 Bit wide Register (Als Dn-Regs are 64 bit wide)
- Apollo has 16 Pointer Registers and 32 Data register it can use.
- These Registers can be used both with AMMX and with every normal instruction.
- AMMX
- MPU 'Memory Protection' Unit, that allows to detects and protects from Illegal Memory Access
- CPU counters

AMMX is the 68k version of the MMX instruction set from INTEL.
-Both MMX and AMMX allow to run SIMD instructions.
-Both support the same type of operations.
-Both allow to operate directly on Register or to use Memory as Input operand.
-AMMX enhanced MMX in such a way that if offers
a) 3 Operand operations
b) Does not limit the programmer to 8 Register but allows him to use up to 32 Registers.

Can you be more specific?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BSzili on August 18, 2017, 09:04:13 PM
@Nickman (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=40)
Thanks! Is this verified by the Apollo Team? I remember Gunnar saying that the GOLD 2 core has no 64-bit support.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: whiteb on August 19, 2017, 06:50:31 AM
http://distrita.com/alert-important-notice-apollo-team-is-asking-for-your-help/

Someone explain to me what is happening with this registration stuff ???

The Facebook Amiga group is discussing it..., So the Apollo team kick out Kipper2k from the group over a disagreement, (Vampire would not be what it is today without kipper), and now want people with boards to send them back so they can implement a registration system ?

Uhhhh no thanks !
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 19, 2017, 07:56:22 AM
Quote from: whiteb;829783
http://distrita.com/alert-important-notice-apollo-team-is-asking-for-your-help/

Someone explain to me what is happening with this registration stuff ???

The Facebook Amiga group is discussing it..., So the Apollo team kick out Kipper2k from the group over a disagreement, (Vampire would not be what it is today without kipper), and now want people with boards to send them back so they can implement a registration system ?

Uhhhh no thanks !


So where is the source of the info you have about Brian getting kicked?

From his own homepage;

http://www.kipper2k.com/

Quote
Hi all,  Just a quick note to give you update on my status. I took a big hit on bad board production recently which has put a huge dent money wise on what  i can and want to do in the future.  I am going to exhaust all my supply of different projects that i have sitting about and will then kinda fizzle away and just do a few projects only. I don't intend on continuing with making the Vampire 600 boards and i will be exhausting those items also. Thanks for everyones support.

 

Brian
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: PPC on August 19, 2017, 08:41:50 AM
Quote from: whiteb;829783
http://distrita.com/alert-important-notice-apollo-team-is-asking-for-your-help/

Someone explain to me what is happening with this registration stuff ???

The Facebook Amiga group is discussing it..., So the Apollo team kick out Kipper2k from the group over a disagreement, (Vampire would not be what it is today without kipper), and now want people with boards to send them back so they can implement a registration system ?

Uhhhh no thanks !

This is not true, Brian left himself because of issue's with lots of faulty boards he got from the manufacturer that produced it for him.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 19, 2017, 08:50:16 AM
And I will add gronds post on EAB;

Quote
Kipper was not kicked from the team. He decided to leave because he was burnt out from all the stress and exhaustion which accumulated over the years. Him having become a grandad recently surely also has played a role. Whoever spreads this nonsense on facebook has no clue or is trying to harm the project.


http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1179157&postcount=128
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Nickman on August 19, 2017, 10:01:22 AM
Quote from: BSzili;829767
@Nickman (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=40)
Thanks! Is this verified by the Apollo Team? I remember Gunnar saying that the GOLD 2 core has no 64-bit support.

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=223
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=758

Apollo was always 64-bit. But over time the support has improved and refined.

Maybe you are thinking of this?
Using such features APOLLO is able to accelerate and improve old existing 68k programs. Several of these "intelligent-rewrites" will be enabled in the next GOLD release of APOLLO.
from this post 18-jan 2016.
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=251
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Kremlar on August 19, 2017, 11:16:00 AM
Quote from: whiteb;829783
http://distrita.com/alert-important-notice-apollo-team-is-asking-for-your-help/

Someone explain to me what is happening with this registration stuff ???

The Facebook Amiga group is discussing it..., So the Apollo team kick out Kipper2k from the group over a disagreement, (Vampire would not be what it is today without kipper), and now want people with boards to send them back so they can implement a registration system ?

Uhhhh no thanks !


Huh??  Send them back???
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: David Wright on August 19, 2017, 02:59:02 PM
I feel bad for Kipper, this bad production must have been truly soul crushing.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BSzili on August 19, 2017, 07:21:03 PM
Quote from: Nickman;829791
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=223
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=758

Apollo was always 64-bit. But over time the support has improved and refined.

Maybe you are thinking of this?
Using such features APOLLO is able to accelerate and improve old existing 68k programs. Several of these "intelligent-rewrites" will be enabled in the next GOLD release of APOLLO.
from this post 18-jan 2016.
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=251
I'm not privy to the internal workings of the Apollo Core, nor the core used by the Vampire 2. I tried to look it up quickly, but I couldn't find the quote about the 64-bit support. I thought it was on aros-exec, but I remembered wrong. Maybe it was from grond here?
You didn't answer my other question, so I wager this is an unofficial list compiled by you. If that's the case, kudos to you :) I hope they will add it to their website after it has been checked against the actual feature list. Then again, the V2+ will probably be EOL by that time :o
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ALB42 on August 19, 2017, 08:07:08 PM
I have in mind 64 bit is still not implemented
because the
LOAD   (A0)+,D1       ; load 8 bytes

(thats how you load 64 bit from memory to a 64 bit register, of course you have to enable the AMMX stuff before)

is not implemented in Gold 2 / Gold 2.5, I guess thats the reason for Gold 2.7

see also:
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=6763&x=1 (http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=6763&x=1)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: magnetic on August 19, 2017, 08:26:05 PM
Quote from: David Wright;829796
I feel bad for Kipper, this bad production must have been truly soul crushing.


It crushed his finances from the sound of it thats terrible. Though im not sure why the company doesnt refund the money for a bad prodcution......
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Nickman on August 19, 2017, 10:28:31 PM
Quote from: BSzili;829810

You didn't answer my other question, so I wager this is an unofficial list compiled by you. If that's the case, kudos to you :) I hope they will add it to their website after it has been checked against the actual feature list. Then again, the V2+ will probably be EOL by that time :o


Well I didn't make the list from nothing. All I typed is from apollo-core.com and http://forum.apollo-accelerators.com

So depends on how you want define official.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BSzili on August 20, 2017, 10:54:22 AM
Quote from: Nickman;829822
Well I didn't make the list from nothing. All I typed is from apollo-core.com and http://forum.apollo-accelerators.com

So depends on how you want define official.
Sure, but we were told continually that the Apollo Core and Vampire are "two separate products", and we shouldn't expect the features listed there to be available on the Vampire. We are also told to buy the Vampire "for the features in currently has", yet no one can really tell which ones it has and which ones hasn't. Know what I mean?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 20, 2017, 12:08:20 PM
@bszili
i understand your considerations. especially its a matter of opinion if the whole apollo approach is (even if closed for most part) a community driven anarchist project or already a business with all its consequences.

however from (potential) users practical point of view it seems that all that is actually a non issue. the vampire boards are sought for, im certain if you putchase and actually got hold of one and then realize that the product is not up to your expectations, you should still be able to sell it, perhaps even with some gain on your part.

i see these all discussions, arguments valid or not, as an attempt on forcing the project in certain direction. alas, for better or worse, its not possible to satisfy everybody, and so the choices that also in this case may be unpopular with some, will always be taken.

i see vampire/apollo project simply as an interesting option. it may not be completely along the lines, what i think is best. but im satisfied with dynamics it wakes. and if i have doubts, i might propose an alternative but would never think of demanding anything from people who do actual work.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BSzili on August 20, 2017, 01:12:49 PM
Quote
trying to find out what features the Vampire currently has = trying to force the project into a certain direction
Honk-honk!

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRHJAIETf4aqlCzkDV8nvW4kSPURm1sRMsEiCVhmrzUBmbY2mpW)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 20, 2017, 10:59:27 PM
@bszili
i wasnt talking particularly about you but about the kind of discussions arising around the apollo/vampire project. even if i dont know the internals about the state of the project i personally dont mind waiting till situation clarifies. certainly whoever needs to have fastest amiga ever just immediately, may take some risks, such as the project may develop its mechanisms and concepts as they go and eventually even drop support for previous models.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BSzili on August 21, 2017, 04:24:54 PM
Again, you are moving the goalpost. Since we've come full circle, it's safe to conclude that information about the features currently available in the Vampire cards is not available.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: SpaceMonkey on August 21, 2017, 06:34:30 PM
Quote from: BSzili;829870
Again, you are moving the goalpost. Since we've come full circle, it's safe to conclude that information about the features currently available in the Vampire cards is not available.
Maybe you should reread the first post.

Or look here.
http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/files/V4_announcement_v1_5.pdf
http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php#specifications
http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/apollo_core
http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/saga_core_registers
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Djole on August 21, 2017, 08:15:15 PM
Quote from: SpaceMonkey;829873
Maybe you should reread the first post.

Or look here.
http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/files/V4_announcement_v1_5.pdf
http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php#specifications
http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/apollo_core
http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/saga_core_registers


Maybe he is just blind, or a standard troll....
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 21, 2017, 08:44:22 PM
Quote from: Djole;829878
Maybe he is just blind, or a standard troll....

bszili is certainly not a troll. he delivered really a lot of software (ports) for all amigoid platforms and been supportive even though sometimes critical about them all. the more i wonder about his insistence in this case, even though i can sense and partly understand his disappointment. i think a number of people who have been either closely involved in or expectant about this project, became now critical. love lost..
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Crom00 on August 21, 2017, 10:19:27 PM
Re Kippa:

Kippa had said he was going to leave Vampire production after the run of V600's were done.

But he took a bath on a bad board run, when the factory stopped replying to messages on the matter he lost quite a bit of time and money. He decided to just retire from the project after the loss as it was a bit much.

Not trying to speak for him but he wasn't "kicked". I don't see him doing production again as the rigors of it all are a bit much.

All in all a stand up guy... A real prince in the Amiga scene with all the add ons he's produced over the years.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Crom00 on August 21, 2017, 10:26:01 PM
Quote from: BSzili;829870
Again, you are moving the goalpost. Since we've come full circle, it's safe to conclude that information about the features currently available in the Vampire cards is not available.


This has some info
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=6¬e=3607
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 22, 2017, 01:53:26 AM
Quote from: Crom00;829885
This has some info
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=6¬e=3607


That link appears to have been edited, no mention of FPU.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Nickman on August 22, 2017, 02:14:20 PM
Quote from: BSzili;829836
Sure, but we were told continually that the Apollo Core and Vampire are "two separate products", and we shouldn't expect the features listed there to be available on the Vampire. We are also told to buy the Vampire "for the features in currently has", yet no one can really tell which ones it has and which ones hasn't. Know what I mean?


Only thing missing from the full Apollo core is the FPU that i know of.
And that is what most "trolls" like to point out.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 22, 2017, 07:41:04 PM
Quote from: Nickman;829899
Only thing missing from the full Apollo core is the FPU that i know of.
And that is what most "trolls" like to point out.


By trolls, I assume you mean those that have software that requires a real fpu to shine.
You forgot about the lack of a Motorola compatible MMU, which means no BSD.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Nickman on August 22, 2017, 08:15:32 PM
Quote from: Iggy;829901
By trolls, I assume you mean those that have software that requires a real fpu to shine.
You forgot about the lack of a Motorola compatible MMU, which means no BSD.


You talk about something completely different. (Most of this post is not directed at you personally Iggy and I sincerely apologize if you get offended)

What I answered and what "trolls" point out in this thread and other places comes from the fact that the FPU that Gunnar and Chris has is not included in the core made for Vampire V2, 500 and 600. So all features of Apollo is not in the Vampire cards. And that ALL information about apollo core on Apollo-core.com is not relevant to the vampire cards.

Because Gunnar said so..... Or did he.... Trolls scream YES. and the rest listen and use common sense.

Everything boils down to some people like to demand and force their beliefs on others.
Now that i think of it they remind me of religious fundamentalists in a lot of ways.

So. Asking and talking civilized about things you like to come in the future and listening to what the other side says and reflect on that answer vs screaming, spreading lies and trying to sabotage with false rumors is a lot better in my book.

The Apollo team have the code for a full FPU is a fact.
The Apollo team does not have that said code adapted for the Vampire cards.. also a fact.
The Apollo team has repeatedly said that they do not think a 68040/060 MMU clone is the way they will go.

Like always.
You want a full 68060 ? Then buy that.
You want/require an FPU. Buy a card with that.
You want/require an MMU. Buy a card with that.

If you on the other hand can live with the fact that today (2017-08-22) neither of these are in the core you get when you buy a Vampire card and you do not even know if it will ever come. Then buy a Vampire card.
It relay is that simple.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: utri007 on August 22, 2017, 08:46:05 PM
Quote

You want a full 68060 ? Then buy that.
You want/require an FPU. Buy a card with that.
You want/require an MMU. Buy a card with that.


That is what I did. Now I have two 68060 equipped Amigas. :)

Apollo team main priority should be 100% compatibility 68040/060 cpus. Any other way to do it is pointless. That is just my opinion.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Kremlar on August 22, 2017, 08:57:17 PM
Quote
Apollo team main priority should be 100% compatibility 68040/060 cpus. Any other way to do it is pointless. That is just my opinion.

It's a valid opinion, but it's difficult to argue with the success they have had.  They sell them faster than they can make them and have developed a large loyal following.  When they're outselling PPC offerings many times over, in such a small market, how can you argue with their success?

A couple of people complaining about the lack of FPU/MMU isn't going to change their course.  A lack of sales might, but that's not going to happen when the vast majority of users care more about other features that have higher priority.

They will likely get to an FPU/MMU in time, but they will prioritize to their liking.

The amount of progress and success that they have had is really quite amazing.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: utri007 on August 22, 2017, 09:52:25 PM
Quote
It's a valid opinion, but it's difficult to argue with the success they have had. They sell them faster than they can make them and have developed a large loyal following. When they're outselling PPC offerings many times over, in such a small market, how can you argue with their success?


Thanks for accepting my point of view, but your point is nonsense. You are basicly saying that if something is popular / succesful it some kind of shield for cristisim.

I expressed interest when price was 150 euros. I would have paid that even if I wouldn't ever use card. Current price is just too much for "maybe I just put it in to drawer" situation. So when it was my turn, I didn't take it. I would have like to use it with my CDTV. They say it works with CDTV, wich is not excatly true. Using it with CDTV would require disabling CDTV's extend roms.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 22, 2017, 10:23:55 PM
Quote from: utri007;829907
Thanks for accepting my point of view, but your point is nonsense. You are basicly saying that if something is popular / succesful it some kind of shield for cristisim.

go on and criticize them all day long, if you ask me.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Kremlar on August 22, 2017, 10:26:25 PM
Quote from: utri007;829907
Thanks for accepting my point of view, but your point is nonsense. You are basicly saying that if something is popular / succesful it some kind of shield for cristisim.


Not what I'm saying at all.  I'm just saying they would likely not adjust their course to placate a small number of people when the vast majority are happy with their current feature roadmap.  Again, their success speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: utri007 on August 22, 2017, 10:46:34 PM
Quote from: Kremlar;829909
Not what I'm saying at all.  I'm just saying they would likely not adjust their course to placate a small number of people when the vast majority are happy with their current feature roadmap.  Again, their success speaks for itself.


True. Usually I just ignore these kind of threads, as there is very little change to that anything said here could make them change their mind.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TheMagicM on August 23, 2017, 12:29:00 AM
Quote from: Nickman;829902


Everything boils down to some people like to demand and force their beliefs on others.
Now that i think of it they remind me of religious fundamentalists in a lot of ways.



But you and everyone knows that this is the way the Amiga community is.  They will alway nitpick and think of any excuse to bring down whatever is being marketed.  People like that arent who products like these are geard towards selling.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 23, 2017, 12:35:39 AM
Quote from: Nickman;829902
You talk about something completely different. (Most of this post is not directed at you personally Iggy and I sincerely apologize if you get offended)


Don't sweat it, I'm not offended.
I know that there is a difference between the complete Apollo core and the core used in Vampire.
I've been quietly discussing the former as it looks like its got some real possibilities outside of Amiga applications.
And Vampire is Amiga focused.
Also, I don't understand the confusion over the specs, those published are fairly accurate.

Finally, I don't get the PPC vs Vampire argument, as neither is a replacement for the other.
I can buy both, after all.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 23, 2017, 11:46:57 PM
Quote from: Kremlar;829909
Not what I'm saying at all.  I'm just saying they would likely not adjust their course to placate a small number of people when the vast majority are happy with their current feature roadmap.  Again, their success speaks for itself.


Yes, like Microsoft Windows on x86 was more successful than Amiga on 68000.. Wait....
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Kremlar on August 24, 2017, 01:03:26 AM
Quote from: psxphill;829927
Yes, like Microsoft Windows on x86 was more successful than Amiga on 68000.. Wait....


Huh???
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 24, 2017, 01:13:12 AM
Quote from: Kremlar;829930
Huh???


I believe he's saying they should listen to the market.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Kremlar on August 24, 2017, 03:18:10 AM
Not following the analogy.  I think Gunnar is listening to his market.

C= certainly didn't, and paid the ultimate price.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: QuikSanz on August 24, 2017, 03:52:05 AM
Quote from: Kremlar;829933
Not following the analogy.  I think Gunnar is listening to his market.

C= certainly didn't, and paid the ultimate price.


I hope there is an internal audio header for Repulse. That way I can switch between Internal, CDRom and Paula.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 24, 2017, 08:07:12 AM
Quote from: Kremlar;829933
Not following the analogy.  I think Gunnar is listening to his market.

C= certainly didn't, and paid the ultimate price.


Gunnar doesn't appear to listen to his market, the market is so desperate that they are listening to him.

The analogy is that just because people buy things, doesn't mean it's any good.

Also if it were better (i.e. compatible fpu and mmu) then more people would want it. Unless you are saying they purposefully crippled the design to reduce demand.

That does fit my observations that apollo isn't meant for amiga, this is just a test ground so people can do his QA and marketing and then he'll be off.

FWIW Commodore also had more people wanting to buy hardware than they could produce. It was the XOR patent license fee that did them in, not a lack of customers.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 24, 2017, 09:32:08 AM
Quote from: psxphill;829938
That does fit my observations that apollo isn't meant for amiga, this is just a test ground so people can do his QA and marketing and then he'll be off.


may be. but then what market would that be for?

030 embedded replacement? but then why even 040 and 060 instruction compatibility? why extra features?

060 replacement? but then why no full mmu and fpu compatibility?

coldfire replacement? it isnt compatible at all, in the shape its tested and provided for amiga community? if it was meant as coldfire replacement why even bother for amiga compatibility?

and what about superaga? of what value is it washing mashine or aircaraft industry? why even bother with amiga chipset if you want an embedded chip?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Kremlar on August 24, 2017, 10:31:48 AM
Quote from: psxphill;829938
Gunnar doesn't appear to listen to his market, the market is so desperate that they are listening to him.

I disagree.  

Quote
The analogy is that just because people buy things, doesn't mean it's any good.

I think that's a poor excuse for your reasoning.  Clearly if Vampire did not have features people wanted they would go with a difference accelerator.  There are reasons why Microsoft and Apple could sell an inferior product, none of which apply to the Apollo team.

Quote
Also if it were better (i.e. compatible fpu and mmu) then more people would want it.

True, but more people would also want it if it were:
 - faster
 - standalone
 - had full AGA support
 - etc.

FPU/MMU aren't the only features left to add.


Quote
That does fit my observations that apollo isn't meant for amiga, this is just a test ground so people can do his QA and marketing and then he'll be off.

Which explains why AGA support is such a high priority.  Oh wait...

Quote
FWIW Commodore also had more people wanting to buy hardware than they could produce. It was the XOR patent license fee that did them in, not a lack of customers.

LOL!  Commodore was in serious trouble way before then.  You're looking back through rose colored glasses if you think Commodore would have lasted.  The  CD32 was OK, but was not going to save the company.  Now, if  you told me that AAA or Hombre or better, along with a new generation of machines was about to be released, I might be slightly on board.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 24, 2017, 11:20:00 AM
Quote from: wawrzon;829940
coldfire replacement? it isnt compatible at all, in the shape its tested and provided for amiga community? if it was meant as coldfire replacement why even bother for amiga compatibility?

https://web.archive.org/web/20150901065243/http://www.apollo-core.com:80/

Quote
Apollo is code compatible with the Motorola M68K and ColdFire families.

This was two years ago. Since then, the project has turned left and right and left again a few times, for various reasons. Maybe someone realized that his amazing new cpu was not so amazing after all? Maybe he realized that the embedded market already have 68k softcores that takes care of its legacy needs? Who knows.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 24, 2017, 11:50:33 AM
Quote from: kolla;829944
https://web.archive.org/web/20150901...o-core.com:80/
yes, buts its not whats being tested with the amiga community, so if they aim at coldfire replacement why dont they test coldfire features and instead test 68k and amiga features with the amiga community.

besides, what you obviously dont know, gunnar was considering coldfire as base for his project, or as cpu solution for natami project at that time. the threads about it are certainly preserved on a1k, in german. he and his associates have been even sponsored wit coldfire evaluation boards by former bplan owners. and they evaluated it and confirmed it inappropropriate for amiga acceleration task, which was exactly the reason to develop an own faster 68k core.

Quote
Who knows.

yes, who knows. so simply draw you occam razor, treat it as a black box and stop trying to find some scar on that project, that only exists in your prejudice. its not for you, it may not be for me, fine. but why refrain to poetry to make it look bad for others?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 24, 2017, 11:51:29 AM
Quote from: psxphill;829938
Gunnar doesn't appear to listen to his market, the market is so desperate that they are listening to him.


The biggest challenge is attracting developers, people willing to commit to the rather big effort it is to move to a new 68k architecture. Gunnar has repeatedly uttered his frustration over lack of people interested in coding for him. He said this why there is no FPU - lack of interest from develeopers. But then he also says that they don't need any more people to "test" the FPU, and the few developers who did offer to help were shunned off because they rather want compatibility than new bling-bling, since new bling-bling means no support in existing developer tool chains, and assembler only. I wonder how long this situation will persist, if someone is willing to update the 68k backends for gcc and clang/llvm to support the Apollo Core - that would be a mile stone.

I also wonder if the Apollo Team has done _any_ research or survey among developers regarding what features they want or lack.

Anyways, if Apollo Core cannot offer the solution wanted, something else will show up.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: grond on August 24, 2017, 12:16:07 PM
Quote from: psxphill;829938
Gunnar doesn't appear to listen to his market, the market is so desperate that they are listening to him. ... That does fit my observations that apollo isn't meant for amiga, this is just a test ground so people can do his QA and marketing and then he'll be off.
 Gunnar knows enough about the Amiga to build one from scratch. Why do you think he does not know what needs with regard to compatibility there are? Because he said that nobody would notice any difference if the FPU only computed with 64 bits of precision instead of 80 and that there is an opportunity for a trade-off?  The final core will have FPU and MMU. For technical reasons (the Apollo Core has two independent memory controllers like many modern CPUs do and unlike any 680x0 before it) the MMU will not be 100% compatible to the previous 68k-MMUs as it seems. Perhaps only at first, perhaps forever. The core will also have SAGA. Why would he spend that much work on SAGA if he didn't care about the Amiga market and only used us as guinea pigs?  It's so simple: the stand-alone needs a chipset implementation more than an FPU. Would be stupid to be able to use those great Amiga FPU-programs without being able to see their output, wouldn't it?  Accordingly the scarce development resources are being used for developing the chipset.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 24, 2017, 04:34:39 PM
Quote from: grond;829948
Gunnar knows enough about the Amiga to build one from scratch.
You always seem to believe that the Amiga is a piece of hardware, whereas it is not. It is a combination of software and hardware in one entire system. I do not doubt that Gunnar has sufficient knowledge on the hardware part, though I have my doubts about "all the rest".

Certainly, as a hardware engineer, the software is usually seen as the "minor inconvenient part that must be somehow made working", but if you look at what the Amiga experience is about, it is also on the software around it.

Quote from: grond;829948
Why do you think he does not know what needs with regard to compatibility there are?
Well, experience so far?

Quote from: grond;829948
Because he said that nobody would notice any difference if the FPU only computed with 64 bits of precision instead of 80 and that there is an opportunity for a trade-off?
Is that the case? Do you have evidence for this? I'm not so certain at all. No problem offering a fast 64-bit option, but I would be better safe than sorry.

Quote from: grond;829948
The final core will have FPU and MMU. For technical reasons (the Apollo Core has two independent memory controllers like many modern CPUs do and unlike any 680x0 before it)
Huh? The 68060 already had a data and a code unit, as two independent units. Also two MMUs, the code and the data unit.


Quote from: grond;829948
The MMU will not be 100% compatible to the previous 68k-MMUs as it seems.
No problem with that as long as it is "powerful enough" to address the needs of developers. Just to let you know again: 256K "page size" is certainly not sufficient for debug tools like MuGa. A PPC-type MMU would be, however, "powerful enough" even though it is completely different from the user (supervisor?) perspective.


Quote from: grond;829948
Perhaps only at first, perhaps forever. The core will also have SAGA. Why would he spend that much work on SAGA if he didn't care about the Amiga market and only used us as guinea pigs?  It's so simple: the stand-alone needs a chipset implementation more than an FPU. Would be stupid to be able to use those great Amiga FPU-programs without being able to see their output, wouldn't it?  Accordingly the scarce development resources are being used for developing the chipset.
No argument about the priorities - that's certainly alright. I'm just not fine with general statements like "who the f*ck needs feature XXX". You never know what feature XXX in an Amiga was actually used for, at a certain point in history, and preserving legacy software is at the very heart of the project - as I understand it at least.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: psxphill on August 25, 2017, 11:07:20 AM
Quote from: grond;829948
Gunnar knows enough about the Amiga to build one from scratch. Why do you think he does not know what needs with regard to compatibility there are?

Because of his refusal to produce a compatible fpu and mmu.

Quote from: grond;829948
The final core will have FPU and MMU.

He has repeatedly said that it won't have a compatible one. Even the disabled fpu doesn't produce the same results as a real fpu, because of his design.

Quote from: grond;829948
Accordingly the scarce development resources are being used for developing the chipset.

It's simple. He is only wasting scarce resources on developing SAGA because he can't use code from minimig/replay because he's keeping apollo closed source for his intended commercial use.

I know you want to believe the best in him and I don't actually blame him for wanting to make money. I just think it's a pain in the arse as I don't think he'll succeed in the embedded market and it would be nicer if he'd focus on compatibility first. Apollo core in minimig on replay would be awesome, if we had the code then we could make changes where we don't like his decisions.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: mikej on August 25, 2017, 11:31:58 AM
Meanwhile we (FPGAArcade) have a very stable/accurate chipset implementation.

The 68060 daughterboard is about to go to manufacture (pictures at Datastorm next week), and the CM3 compute module approach for CPU emulation looks very promising.

Our new (open source) CPU core continues to develop based on reverse engineering and the Replay main board is being updated with 28nm Spartan7. The current Reply1 board will continue to be supported.

More info on my forum or come chat at Datastorm if you are in Scandinavia.
Cheers,
Mike
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: grond on August 25, 2017, 12:01:00 PM
Quote from: psxphill;829978
Because of his refusal to produce a compatible fpu and mmu. He has repeatedly said that it won't have a compatible one. Even the disabled fpu doesn't produce the same results as a real fpu, because of his design.
 This is just wrong. The publically not available FPU is fully 040 compatible. May be you are a little confused about the compatibility among the different Motorola FPUs? The FPU in the 080 can even reach 882-compatibility level with some microcode.  
Quote
It's simple. He is only wasting scarce resources on developing SAGA because he can't use code from minimig/replay because he's keeping apollo closed source for his intended commercial use.
 This is wrong for several two reasons but let me tell you the most obvious: he has an agreement with Thomas Hirsch of Natami fame to have access to the Natami AGA implementation. No license problems at all. However, he has decided to code the chipset himself because he thinks it will be easier to incorporate it into the design and to expand it to become SAGA if he writes the code himself. This in addition to the fact that he already had his own untested AGA-implementation to build on.  
Quote
I know you want to believe the best in him
 I don't believe in him, I have been working with him. I have his VHDL-code on my harddisk.  
Quote
I don't think he'll succeed in the embedded market and it would be nicer if he'd focus on compatibility first.
 There is no either-or question. If you pay him, he will make a ColdFire-derivative of his core for you. That doesn't mean the 080 as seen in the Vampire were ColdFire-compatible (and thus partly 68k-incompatible). There is an 80 bit FPU but it is obviously much slower than a 64 bit FPU, even more so if you use 64 bit FPU macros available in more recent FPGAs.  
Quote
Apollo core in minimig on replay would be awesome, if we had the code then we could make changes where we don't like his decisions.
 Yes, and you could save the cost for a M.D. by doing open heart surgery yourself, get yourself a knife. You have NO idea how complex the core is. The entire idea of doing changes to the core yourself is ludicrous. Just the instruction decoder of the 080 is FAR more complex than the ENTIRE open-source 68k cores available (which, btw, have no FPU or MMU AT ALL, are quite buggy, have only partial 020 support at best and thus are far less compatible than the 080 could ever be). I am a microchip developer by profession, I know VHDL. There is no chance in hell I could do architectural changes to Gunnar's core.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: grond on August 25, 2017, 12:01:38 PM
Quote from: mikej;829980
Our new (open source) CPU core continues to develop

Does it have an MMU and FPU?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: mikej on August 25, 2017, 12:18:10 PM
Quote from: grond;829982
Does it have an MMU and FPU?


The 68060 and CM3 softcore does yes. The new hardware core is designed to replace the TG68K and the first priority is accuracy (required for the AtariST demo scene amongst others).  

The fact it goes an order of magnitude faster than the current core in the Spartan7 is a nice bonus when required. We'll see how it develops. For the 68060/MMU/FPU the ARM SOC emulation offers the best price/performance ratio while keeping the rest of the system in the FPGA. I switch back to the internal core when accuracy is important (A1200/600/500 etc). I agree the TG68K is hard to maintain ( I do a lot of it), and it's important for the whole community we have a next gen open source core.

"I am a microchip developer by profession, I know VHDL. There is no chance in hell I could do architectural changes to Gunnar's core. "

So I am (actually a CPU designer). ^^ So, what you are saying is the core is unmaintainable by anybody else? Sounds like some poor design decisions there. Even very complex ARM designs are quite clean and can be maintained, which is a requirement obviously in a commercial environment. What happens to your customers if Gunnar gets bored then?

/Mike
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: grond on August 25, 2017, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: mikej;829983
The 68060 and CM3 softcore does yes.
 The verb is singular but you mention two things to go along with it? What is the CM3 softcore? Farther below you mention an ARM SOC, so are you referring to some ordinary microcontroller running some qemu-type software CPU emulator?  
Quote
Even very complex ARM designs are quite clean and can be maintained
 You are a CPU designer and yet compare the complexity of a clean and orthogonal RISC architecture to that of the 68k?    
Quote
which is a requirement obviously in a commercial environment.
 Rest assured that Gunnar knows the requirements of the commercial environment. He has designed parts of the POWER8 and recently of some ARMv8 processor.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: mikej on August 25, 2017, 12:45:15 PM
Quote from: grond;829984
The verb is singular but you mention two things to go along with it? What is the CM3 softcore? Farther below you mention an ARM SOC, so are you referring to some ordinary microcontroller running some qemu-type software CPU emulator?     You are a CPU designer and yet compare the complexity of a clean and orthogonal RISC architecture to that of the 68k?      Rest assured that Gunnar knows the requirements of the commercial environment. He has designed parts of the POWER8 and recently of some ARMv8 processor.


The 68060 clearly contains both. The CM3 is a Rasp Pi ARM SOC
http://www.fpgaarcade.com/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=1221

We are experimenting with a CPU running an emulation for the 68K processor.  It's pretty good at this. Given there is a massive open source effort here, they are pretty refined - and we don't care about the cycle timing as long as it's fast. The rest of the chipset is still held in the FPGA, so all the timing critical video stuff is spot on - and the CPU can get on with it's stuff. Very Fast. It also has build in "fast" memory, and an HDMI for RTG etc.

"clean and orthogonal RISC architecture to that of the 68k? "
No, I'm asking why Gunnar's implementation is difficult to maintain.

The 68000 die is extremely simple and elegant actually, the complexity being in the microcoding.
/Mike
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: grond on August 25, 2017, 01:04:37 PM
Quote from: mikej;829985
The 68060 clearly contains both. The CM3 is a Rasp Pi ARM SOC
http://www.fpgaarcade.com/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=1221

We are experimenting with a CPU running an emulation for the 68K processor.
 OK, so there is no new open-source 68k softcore. A pretty good software emulator has been around for quite a while even though its CPU emulator isn't 100% bugfree and thus incompatible (yuck!): WinUAE.  
Quote
No, I'm asking why Gunnar's implementation is difficult to maintain.

For the same reason the LHC is difficult to build and maintain: it's complicated.  
Quote
The 68000 die is extremely simple and elegant actually, the complexity being in the microcoding.
/Mike

Um, yes. The 68k family didn't end with the 68000. And 8 or 16 MHz and an IPC of something like 0.25 doesn't cut it today. Having all flags available for the subsequent instruction to evaluate and executing several such instructions in the same cycle along with the complex address modes available for each of the instruction is something that makes the 68k a few orders of magnitude more complicated than an ARM.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 25, 2017, 01:18:24 PM
Quote from: psxphill;829978

It's simple. He is only wasting scarce resources on developing SAGA because he can't use code from minimig/replay because he's keeping apollo closed source for his intended commercial use.


SAGA is supposed to be open sourced at some point, maybe you can find a fitting speculation as for why that is? :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: mikej on August 25, 2017, 01:18:53 PM
Quote from: grond;829986
OK, so there is no new open-source 68k softcore. .


Yes, there will be, based on the layout extraction. Initially targeted as a very accurate 68000 replacement, but will be expanded to 68020 asap and replace the TG68K. Meanwhile the 68060 real CPU and CM3 projects cover the top end.

/MikeJ
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: grond on August 25, 2017, 01:25:44 PM
Quote from: mikej;829988
Yes, there will be, based on the layout extraction. Initially targeted as a very accurate 68000 replacement, but will be expanded to 68020 asap

Layout extraction? So you are going to do a Register-Transfer Level clone of the 68000? While that is interesting from a tech-archaeological point of view, how do you think such a "core" could be expanded for higher speed, newer architecture, superscalarity and so on? The only practical way to improve the outcome of the layout extraction would be to clock it faster than it was in the original silicon. The 080 already reaches the speed of a GHz 020 in a consumer level FPGA, though. No current FPGA could reach those speeds let alone the fact that you would somehow have to get the "core" to interoperate with more recent peripherals such as DDR3 RAM and the like. I wouldn't want to dig through a network of flip-flops and logic gates and try add a more modern memory controller...
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 25, 2017, 01:27:13 PM
Quote from: grond;829986
OK, so there is no new open-source 68k softcore. A pretty good software emulator has been around for quite a while even though its CPU emulator isn't 100% bugfree and thus incompatible (yuck!): WinUAE.  
Presumably, Tony is doing is best to get the bugs out. However, bugs are normal, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Apollo core also has bugs, too, given that all the mot processors had some issues here and there.

The problems I see with software emulation are not really bugs. Bugs happen, such is life.

The problem I see is inconsistent performance. On eUAE, I see situations where the emulator crawls so slowly it is simply unusable, while a couple of moments later at a different task it runs ahead at light speed. This is simply not acceptable for a good quality of experience.

WinUAE: well, it runs on Windows. I don't have Windows, and I don't pay Microsoft to be able to emuate an Amiga. I already have a perfectly working Os, without spyware, thank you.

Quote from: grond;829986
Having all flags available for the subsequent instruction to evaluate and executing several such instructions in the same cycle along with the complex address modes available for each of the instruction is something that makes the 68k a few orders of magnitude more complicated than an ARM.
Hard to judge from here. It seems that the Apollo core is an out-of-order design which is necessarily more complicated, and there aren't many people around that know how to design such beasts. So yes, I have no doubt that Gunnar knows his business. I can hardly judge.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: mikej on August 25, 2017, 01:33:33 PM
Quote from: grond;829990
Layout extraction? So you are going to do a Register-Transfer Level clone of the 68000? While that is interesting from a tech-archaeological point of view, how do you think such a "core" could be expanded for higher speed, newer architecture, superscalarity and so on? The only practical way to improve the outcome of the layout extraction would be to clock it faster than it was in the original silicon. The 080 already reaches the speed of a GHz 020 in a consumer level FPGA, though. No current FPGA could reach those speeds let alone the fact that you would somehow have to get the "core" to interoperate with more recent peripherals such as DDR3 RAM and the like. I wouldn't want to dig through a network of flip-flops and logic gates and try add a more modern memory controller...


It's done. I'm using the layout to understand the low level operation. A lot of the quirks arise from the way it's built. This allows us to build a clean(er) implementation which fits nicely within our current FPGA SOC.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 25, 2017, 01:45:28 PM
Quote from: mikej;829993
It's done. I'm using the layout to understand the low level operation. A lot of the quirks arise from the way it's built. This allows us to build a clean(er) implementation which fits nicely within our current FPGA SOC.

That's all certainly nice as an academic exercise, but why does it help the end user to address his computing/emulation needs?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: mikej on August 25, 2017, 01:55:55 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;829995
That's all certainly nice as an academic exercise, but why does it help the end user to address his computing/emulation needs?

We end up with a more accurate, open source, 68000/20 FPGA soft core - and potentially a faster one as well.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: grond on August 25, 2017, 02:04:42 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;829991
Presumably, Tony is doing is best to get the bugs out. However, bugs are normal, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Apollo core also has bugs, too, given that all the mot processors had some issues here and there.

Sure. And we have reported bugs we found in UAE which we use for comparison with what the 080 does. All well.  
Quote
The problem I see is inconsistent performance. On eUAE, I see situations where the emulator crawls so slowly it is simply unusable, while a couple of moments later at a different task it runs ahead at light speed. This is simply not acceptable for a good quality of experience.

I totally agree!  
Quote
WinUAE: well, it runs on Windows. I don't have Windows, and I don't pay Microsoft to be able to emuate an Amiga. I already have a perfectly working Os, without spyware, thank you.

I don't have any Windows either. But I understand that WinUAE is the mother-of-all-UAEs today.  
Quote
It seems that the Apollo core is an out-of-order design

No, it is still in-order but already very complex. ooo would be another order of magnitude more complex.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: grond on August 25, 2017, 02:07:49 PM
Quote from: mikej;829996
We end up with a more accurate, open source, 68000/20 FPGA soft core - and potentially a faster one as well.

Faster than what?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 25, 2017, 02:16:59 PM
Quote from: mikej;829985
We are experimenting with a CPU running an emulation for the 68K processor.

thats what i proposed for years. i hope all the best for your project. however it is completely different approach than gunnar and apollo team. and its a bit misleading, not to mention the obsious differences. also im not sure if mmu can be run with jit, which, if enabled, would certainly cripple the performance below that of apollo core. emulating 040 on a fast pc without jit doesnt reach integer performance of apollo core in current vampire hardware implementation.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 25, 2017, 02:19:06 PM
Quote from: mikej;829996
We end up with a more accurate, open source, 68000/20 FPGA soft core - and potentially a faster one as well.
Hold on. If that's the goal, why do you start with the 68000 design in first place? It's purely microcode-based, and certainly completely outdated. If you'd want a "fast" 68000 design, why not start with a better performing member of the family?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: mikej on August 25, 2017, 02:22:37 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;830000
thats what i proposed for years. i hope all the best for your project. however it is completely different approach than gunnar and apollo team. and its a bit misleading, not to mention the obsious differences. also im not sure if mmu can be run with jit, which, if enabled, would certainly cripple the performance below that of apollo core. emulating 040 on a fast pc without jit doesnt reach integer performance of apollo core in current vampire hardware implementation.



MMU is problematic with jit correct.
With jit, and note the ARM is Only emulating the CPU core, it flies. And its a ~$25 BOM cost.

We are aiming for different things here, my model is something like an A1200 with a fast accelerator card and RTG plugged in.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 25, 2017, 02:23:18 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;829991
WinUAE: well, it runs on Windows. I don't have Windows, and I don't pay Microsoft to be able to emuate an Amiga. I already have a perfectly working Os, without spyware, thank you.


i currently mostly use fs-uae under lubuntu under vmware player for immediate testing of changes to aros 68k. it isnt fast, especially that it runs without jit (testing) virtualized on so to say low mem machine (have only 4gb ram to date) but is is usable. you can also run winuae with wine under linux, no problem. you dont need windows.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: mikej on August 25, 2017, 02:24:24 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;830001
Hold on. If that's the goal, why do you start with the 68000 design in first place? It's purely microcode-based, and certainly completely outdated. If you'd want a "fast" 68000 design, why not start with a better performing member of the family?


I need a cycle accurate 68000. I can extend this to 68020 and faster performance, but I think ARM emulation for the CPU core is the way to go for 68060/MMU/FPU etc.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 25, 2017, 02:30:09 PM
Quote from: mikej;830002
MMU is problematic with jit correct.


thanks for confirmation. thats what also toni says however psxphill has been always challenging that statement.

Quote
With jit, and note the ARM is Only emulating the CPU core, it flies. And its a ~$25 BOM cost.

fine, its expectable, as it is the case on a x86 with jit, but what precizely does it mean it files on your arm? are there benchmark results?

Quote
We are aiming for different things here, my model is something like an A1200 with a fast accelerator card and RTG plugged in.


sounds pretty close to what an amiga with vampire is supposed to be. curious which approach proves better in a long run ;)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 25, 2017, 02:37:01 PM
Quote from: mikej;830004
I need a cycle accurate 68000. I can extend this to 68020 and faster performance, but I think ARM emulation for the CPU core is the way to go for 68060/MMU/FPU etc.


i think cycle exact 68000 and everything above are two different things.
certainly it doesnt make sense to build a faster porcessor based on pure 68000 design. software that requires it expects it to run precisely at specified speed. all te software that reuires faster 68k cpus are better served with a reimplementation without strictly sticking to 68000 restrictions and design. good deal of binary compatibility is enough.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: grond on August 25, 2017, 03:04:05 PM
Quote from: mikej;830004
I need a cycle accurate 68000. I can extend this to 68020 and faster performance

This sounds like taking a steam engine apart in order to build a formula 1 car from the insights you get while doing it.  
Quote
but I think ARM emulation for the CPU core is the way to go for 68060/MMU/FPU etc.

MMU only if without jit and thus a lot slower than the 080. As Wawa already mentioned, the 080 is faster than WinUAE without jit even when running it on a PC. The ARM SoC certainly is a lot slower than a standard PC.

In any case, it's good to have options. Go ahead with your project, it will certainly find its market. I don't think you need 060 speed at all for your project/product to succeed. After all there even is a market for 020 and 030 accelerators 20 or 50 times slower than the 080. I'm not going to sell my Blizzard 1230 and I can see that there will always be people that want the original Amiga experience and not the what-could-have-been Amiga experience so to say.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: mikej on August 25, 2017, 03:09:26 PM
"Go ahead with your project, it will certainly find its market. "

Why thank you, I'm sure it will.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 25, 2017, 04:36:18 PM
Quote from: grond;830007
...I can see that there will always be people that want the original Amiga experience and not the what-could-have-been Amiga experience so to say.


'What could have been'...hmm, nope 68K was dying. What WOULD have been was a shift to RISC.
And Vampire users don't want to admit that, they want to live in a fantasy where Motorola would have continued to develop to 68K.
That wasn't going to happen, and now we have these fantastic predictions that an FPGA reimplementation of the 68K is somehow going to outperform a modern cpu.

Let's face it, Vampire IS for those that want a higher performing implementation of the original Amiga experience.
There's nothing wrong with that, it's what I'm interested in.
But pretending it's competitive with more powerful hardware is foolish and only discredits the people proposing that argument.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: grond on August 25, 2017, 05:11:21 PM
Quote from: Iggy;830010
'What could have been'...hmm, nope 68K was dying.

I didn't specify the assumptions this hypothetical scenario would have been based on, did I?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: pierre on August 25, 2017, 07:41:09 PM
So where and when are these going to be sold.  So far the whole Vampire thing is just vapor to me. I've seen them in youtube.  PPL talk like you can buy them but so far I can tell you can't.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 25, 2017, 07:59:55 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;830006
i think cycle exact 68000 and everything above are two different things.


That is what I understand from MikeJ here - use the FPGA for 68000 (and possibly 68020), when cycle exact is important, and move to emulation on ARM when cycle exact is not important, and things like speed, FPU and optionally MMU is required. People should keep in mind that FPGA Arcade is not just about Amiga, but a whole range of systems, of which many need cycle exact 68000.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 25, 2017, 08:28:37 PM
Quote from: Iggy;830010
But pretending it's competitive with more powerful hardware is foolish and only discredits the people proposing that argument.


Yeah, Gunnar did not exactly take it kindly that I pointed out how a 5 dollar Raspberry Pi Zero outperforms the Vampire cards on his own benchmark tests.

Ironically, I have a Zero W in the A600 along with the Vampire :laughing:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 25, 2017, 08:30:42 PM
Quote from: pierre;830018
So where and when are these going to be sold.  So far the whole Vampire thing is just vapor to me. I've seen them in youtube.  PPL talk like you can buy them but so far I can tell you can't.


Its not vapor. I have a V600, like alot of others do.

http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/

That said; since they have moved away from manual production, and will shift to vendors, you can soonish purchase from a webshop.

Details about Vendors; http://www.apollo-accelerators.com/files/V4_announcement_v1_5.pdf

Amedia Computer France SAS https://www.amedia-computer.com/fr/
Leaman Computing Ltd http://amigakit.com/
RELEC http://www.relec.ch
AmigaStore http://amigastore.eu
Amiten Store http://amiten.es/
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: LoadWB on August 25, 2017, 09:05:55 PM
@mikej

You looked familiar...  (http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1091)

I only just put two and two together.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: pierre on August 25, 2017, 09:06:23 PM
Ohh boy, that site look like well maybe.... not holding my breath.  Too bad this can't be managed better.  We can only hope AmigaKit gets them in stock.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 25, 2017, 09:32:27 PM
Quote from: pierre;830024
Ohh boy, that site look like well maybe.... not holding my breath.  Too bad this can't be managed better.  We can only hope AmigaKit gets them in stock.


Thats the point; it IS getting managed better going forward. Its why they recently switched to factory production, and will use vendors.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 25, 2017, 09:42:53 PM
Quote from: Niding;830027
Thats the point; it IS getting managed better going forward. Its why they recently switched to factory production, and will use vendors.


So it is becoming a business, with everything that implies. Curious what the price tag eventually will be, and whether enough people are prepared to pay that much for it.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 25, 2017, 09:59:18 PM
Quote from: grond;830007
MMU only if without jit and thus a lot slower than the 080. As Wawa already mentioned, the 080 is faster than WinUAE without jit even when running it on a PC.

So, WinUAE without accessible MMU is faster than 080 without accessible MMU, and that is somehow great for the 080? At least with WinUAE (and FS-UAE that I use) that is a choice left to the user - MMU, or damn bloody fast - and with functional FPU too! :)

Have you tried comparing with Aranym instead of WinUAE? Aranym can be configured to pretty much emulate just the CPU, and provide access to resources of the host operating system (typically linux) using optimal virtualised devices instead of emulation of hardware.

Oh, and here is some software that the 68080 is not capable of running...

http://ftp.ports.debian.org/debian-ports/pool-m68k/main/
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: mikej on August 25, 2017, 10:08:40 PM
Quote from: LoadWB;830023
@mikej

You looked familiar...  (http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1091)

I only just put two and two together.


Lol. I've been quiet (and busy).

This is the image map of the netlist the tools are running. Credit to Oliver Galibert for the hard work.

http://fpgaarcade.com/68k/

Data IO pins are round the bottom. Op-code flows bottom left to right then up through the microcode on the RHS of the die.
The A and D registers are the vertical strips on the left, along with a very simple ALU slice.
/Mike
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 25, 2017, 10:31:44 PM
Quote from: kolla;830020
Yeah, Gunnar did not exactly take it kindly that I pointed out how a 5 dollar Raspberry Pi Zero outperforms the Vampire cards on his own benchmark tests.

Ironically, I have a Zero W in the A600 along with the Vampire :laughing:

It is what it is, one nice enhancement over the 68000. You would think they'd be satisfied with that, but no...
Their going to kick ARM, PPC, and X64's ass too.

For God's sake, it an FPGA.  That limits it to begin with.

But it definitely does outperform a Motorola processor (as long as fpu or mmu functions are not required).
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: sean_sk on August 26, 2017, 04:15:12 AM
Quote from: kolla;830020
Yeah, Gunnar did not exactly take it kindly that I pointed out how a 5 dollar Raspberry Pi Zero outperforms the Vampire cards on his own benchmark tests.

Yeah and? Who of us would react any differently if we put in a lot of time and energy into a project only to have someone sledge our work. Sure Gunnar goes on a bit about his core, but you know what? I would to if I worked on something that I was proud of. OK so the Apollo core doesn't have an FPU or MMU. So what! It's highly unlikely that it will continue to be this way indefinitely.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: magnetic on August 26, 2017, 04:23:48 AM
Quote from: sean_skroht;830046
Yeah and? Who of us would react any differently if we put in a lot of time and energy into a project only to have someone sledge our work. Sure Gunnar goes on a bit about his core, but you know what? I would to if I worked on something that I was proud of. OK so the Apollo core doesn't have an FPU or MMU. So what! It's highly unlikely that it will continue to be this way indefinitely.


So what? lol. The whole point of running a classic amiga, at least to me, is legacy classic compatibility and MMU and FPU is important for this..
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: sean_sk on August 26, 2017, 05:00:24 AM
Quote from: magnetic;830047
So what? lol. The whole point of running a classic amiga, at least to me, is legacy classic compatibility and MMU and FPU is important for this..

If Commodore were still around I  can tell you now their current line up would not be beholden to your  idea of legacy compatibility. In fact, far from it. And I certainly  can't see why the Vampire project should be either.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: PPC on August 26, 2017, 06:28:20 AM
Quote from: magnetic;830047
So what? lol. The whole point of running a classic amiga, at least to me, is legacy classic compatibility and MMU and FPU is important for this..


Rome wasn't build in one day either, For Apollo core to come at this point has taken years of development.
MMU you don't really need with AmigaOS and applications, the FPU is really nice to have to run more of the newer software/games (quake)/scene demos etc.
All i can say is be patient, keep in mind it's being developed continuously every day.
I think the current Vampire packs enough really cool features&speed never seen before on A500 and A600 for lots of fun.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 26, 2017, 06:58:55 AM
Quote from: sean_skroht;830048
If Commodore were still around I  can tell you now their current line up would not be beholden to your  idea of legacy compatibility. In fact, far from it. And I certainly  can't see why the Vampire project should be either.
If CBM would still be around, there would also be new products around, and updates of old products to new interfaces. However, they are not, so the situation is a completely different one. The entire platform lives from its legacy, and ignoring that is not exactly helpful.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: sean_sk on August 26, 2017, 07:02:33 AM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;830053
If CBM would still be around, there would  also be new products around, and updates of old products to new  interfaces. However, they are not, so the situation is a completely  different one. The entire platform lives from its legacy, and ignoring  that is not exactly helpful.

Not necessarily saying that legacy compatibility should be ignored but holding back development and progression of the platform for the sake of compatibility purposes is not helpful either.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 26, 2017, 07:49:10 AM
Quote from: sean_skroht;830046
Yeah and? Who of us would react any differently if we put in a lot of time and energy into a project only to have someone sledge our work.


Most people. It is a normal event that takes place every day, and especially in the field of technology. Gunnar is also among the first to sledge other people's work, and boasting about the superiority of his own without any modesty.

Quote
Sure Gunnar goes on a bit about his core, but you know what? I would to if I worked on something that I was proud of.


You know what? Most people manage to be proud of their work without having illusions of grandeur. I am really sorry that you don't have anything that you are proud of, maybe time to step up the game somehow? :)

Quote
OK so the Apollo core doesn't have an FPU or MMU. So what! It's highly unlikely that it will continue to be this way indefinitely.


Well, it has both FPU and MMU. The fastest FPU and the most advanced MMU, of course. But neither are available, nor compatible with existing 68k software. For the MMU I can understand it. For the FPU I am less forgiving, since it is something that was "real soon now" for years already.

But - the lack of compatible FPU and MMU is not the big problem. What pisses people off is when we are told that we have no use for FPU and compatible MMU, and that we are stupid to ask for such silly things.

As for Gunnar's knowledge about the Amiga... considering how surprisingly ignorant he has been about various operating system fundamentals (which for example led him to state out of the frustration that AROS was to be future OS for Vampire), I am not so sure. It will surprise me if Vampire boards for A3000 and A4000 will ever show up, since they then will have to deal with a whole can of worms in terms of legacy problems (Zorro3). I totally expect them to say "buy standalone instead!".
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 26, 2017, 08:01:26 AM
Quote from: sean_skroht;830054
Not necessarily saying that legacy compatibility should be ignored but holding back development and progression of the platform for the sake of compatibility purposes is not helpful either.

You know what's holding back development and progress? Shunning off developers. The Amiga has _very few_ developers left, and it is extremely hard to attract new developers, so when you make a new processor for Amiga, keeping developers happy should really be priority number one! Gunnar has been under the illusion that developers somehow automatically show up if only the core is super fast. But they are not, much to his frustration (I guess).
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: sean_sk on August 26, 2017, 08:55:08 AM
Quote from: kolla;830055
I am really sorry that you don't have anything that you are proud of, maybe time to step up the game somehow? :)

No need to make insulting assumptions mate. No one insulted you.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: grond on August 26, 2017, 09:36:11 AM
Quote from: kolla;830055
Gunnar is also among the first to sledge other people's work, and boasting about the superiority of his own without any modesty.

You know what? Most people manage to be proud of their work without having illusions of grandeur. I am really sorry that you don't have anything that you are proud of, maybe time to step up the game somehow? :)


And then there are those personalities who like to stalk other people's projects pointing out their deficiencies and expect to be thanked for it like "thank you for pointing out what an MMU and FPU may be used for; we know how to build a CPU but didn't know that!"
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 26, 2017, 01:46:44 PM
Quote from: grond;830062
And then there are those personalities who like to stalk other people's projects pointing out their deficiencies and expect to be thanked for it like "thank you for pointing out what an MMU and FPU may be used for; we know how to build a CPU but didn't know that!"

'Personalities' who 'stalk' others, wow, we're moving right into psychotic thought here.
I'm glad they're aware of the deficiencies of the core, and its never been my intent to be a irritant (unless those irritations help produce a pearl).

What we are, is potential consumers. And, now that the project has moved beyond a hobbyist venture, there IS an expectation of some level of professionalism on the part of the developers.
That would include addressing the market's concerns about the product, unless they intend to continue this 'Stanley Brothers' form of marketing (qualifying the buyers).
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: grond on August 26, 2017, 02:17:12 PM
Quote from: Iggy;830065
this 'Stanley Brothers' form of marketing (qualifying the buyers).

Are you referring to the famous Bluegrass act?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 26, 2017, 03:01:39 PM
@kolla
ok, we already really well know how gunnar is ignorant and hurting people who know better, how he should proceed with his project. and good to know, that an amiga compatible is not capable of running a linux distro, because it is very important for every true amiga user to run linux on his hardware. thanks for pointing this out constantly.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 26, 2017, 06:00:19 PM
Quote from: grond;830066
Are you referring to the famous Bluegrass act?

No, the inventors of the Stanley Steamer automobile, who interviewed customers to see if they were right for their car.

Quote from: wawrzon;830068
@kolla
ok, we already really well know how gunnar is ignorant and hurting people who know better, how he should proceed with his project. and good to know, that an amiga compatible is not capable of running a linux distro, because it is very important for every true amiga user to run linux on his hardware. thanks for pointing this out constantly.

Screw Linux, you can't run BSD either.
I can run Linux on my PPC hardware, but BSD has been part of our history for a long time.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Kronos on August 26, 2017, 07:13:42 PM
Quote from: Iggy;830073

Screw Linux, you can't run BSD either.
I can run Linux on my PPC hardware, but BSD has been part of our history for a long time.


BSD is YALD for 99.99% of those that might be concerned..........

What Gunnar fails to see, no matter how good the Vampire will turn out, it will never be anything that people need.

It might be something that some people want, but that number is reduced everyday has rants or refuses to listen to his potential costumers.


Personally I'm somehow more impressed with the idea of the FPGArcarde guys, use an rPi as an 68k CPU in combination with an FPGA-AGA chipset.......
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 26, 2017, 07:28:02 PM
Quote from: wawrzon;830068
@kolla
ok, we already really well know how gunnar is ignorant and hurting people who know better, how he should proceed with his project.

He is not hurting anyone, this is a splash in a fish pond.
He is also not ignorant, but a lot of the "minions" indeed are.

Quote
and good to know, that an amiga compatible is not capable of running a linux distro, because it is very important for every true amiga user to run linux on his hardware. thanks for pointing this out constantly.

You are welcome.

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5¬e=7064

The job of the MMU of the Apollo Core, is to map memory so that it makes sense for AmigaOS (and map it differently when running Atari TOS), do funny stuff like keeping a copy of chip ram available in fast ram for faster access, map out "video ram" for the P96 driver (I guess), provide DMA for various I/O, map kickstart into memory at right address etc (I suppose it is the MPU that protects the kickstart). All without the operating system being involved, for all practical purposes turning the operating system into an embedded applience. And soon with multithreading - in essence do what ARM processors are doing on Minimig, MiST and MiSTer, only doing it with 68k code - hardware abstraction, not within AmigaOS, but under it. All this makes old debugging tools pointless, since they can only see what AmigaOS sees, and that may be far from what actually is going on. Unlike on "real" Amiga.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Zooz on August 27, 2017, 09:39:03 AM
Map it differently when running Atari TOS => this is false, the vampire do not map any atari stuff.

Map out "video ram" for the P96 driver => this is false, video memory is allocated at end of fastram (MEMF_REVERSE) by default, just that. The video can address any allocated memory with MEMF_FAST|MEMF_PUBLIC.

That gunnar do not brings now a mmu is because, one again, prios are elsewhere at moment.

Again, i see kolla continues to insult vampire users as so called minions, which seriously starts to bother me, he indeed desperately needs a life.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 27, 2017, 09:57:17 AM
Quote from: Zooz;830085
and map it differently when running Atari TOS => this is false, the vampire do not map any atari stuff.

map out "video ram" for the P96 driver => false, video memory is allocated at end of fastram (MEMF_REVERSE), just that. the video can address any ram from any allocated memory with MEMF_FAST|MEMF_PUBLIC.

and that gunnar do not brings now a mmu is because, one again, prios are elsewhere at moment.

again, i see kolla continues to insult vampire users as so called minions, which seriously starts to bother me, he indeed desperately needs a life.


Well, kolla says alot/some of Vampire users are ignorant, which depends how you define it.
I most certainly feel quite ignorant about the inner workings of both AOS and 68k hardware. I coded some ASM back in the 90s, but has forgotten it all basically. So in kollas world Im one of those ignorants. Thats fine. I dont care what he thinks, just like he doesnt  care what I think.
I personally look at what I currently need from a computer, just like he does. Vampire works just fine for my personal needs, and thats what is my refrencepoint. A computer is a tool, not a religious icon.

I realise that some developers have issues with the lack of MMU for debugging purposes, and as a non-developer I cant speak to that point. Is there ways around this issue, or will it require new tools to get around it?

But these subjective stabs isnt really helping anyone. Personally I cant be bothered reading or posting forums much anymore, cause they usually just stray off course, instead of staying objective. And to be fair, that goes for people very much in favour of Vampire too.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 27, 2017, 10:16:51 AM
Quote from: Niding;830086
So in kollas world Im one of those ignorants.


No, you are not. Rather the contrary, you are probably the most moderate and decent person writing and posting about Vampire and Apollo Core. There are a few others who go out of their way with caps-lock and exclamation marks on the apollo core forum, and ironically none of them even have Vampire cards AFAIK.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 27, 2017, 10:32:03 AM
Quote from: Zooz;830085
Map it differently when running Atari TOS => this is false, the vampire do not map any atari stuff.

Not currently, but it was to work in (or as) an Atari ST, that would be the way to go.

Quote
2016-10-14. - 13:53:22 Vampire seems to be working on ATARI.. So yes why not make a ATARI release too.. Looks not that complicated only include TOS and set the MMU table to match ATARI memory map

I take it Gunnar knows what he talks about?

Quote
Map out "video ram" for the P96 driver => this is false, video memory is allocated at end of fastram (MEMF_REVERSE) by default, just that. The video can address any allocated memory with MEMF_FAST|MEMF_PUBLIC.

Allright, fine, I was guessing, I said so. How is that memory mapped to the framebuffer?

Quote
That gunnar do not brings now a mmu is because, one again, prios are elsewhere at moment.

Gunnar has repeated over and over that the Apollo Core has MMU, and it makes total sense that it does.

Quote
Again, i see kolla continues to insult vampire users as so called minions, which seriously starts to bother me, he indeed desperately needs a life.

Vampire users are not the minions, the minions typically don't even have Vampire boards, but wow do they plan to! ;)  Mind you, I am a Vampire user myself.

And I am quite content with my life thank you.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 27, 2017, 10:53:02 AM
Quote from: Niding;830086
I realise that some developers have issues with the lack of MMU for debugging purposes, and as a non-developer I cant speak to that point. Is there ways around this issue, or will it require new tools to get around it?

It requires new tools, as Gunnar has said many times. I am not sure, but doesn't such new tool also exist, using the MPU? I cannot recall. The way the Vampire works, it solves many issues that normally is solved by the operating system, in hardware instead. Naturally, as the people involved are hardware people. If the Apollo Core MMU was exposed to Amiga OS, and programs could poke around in it, the Amiga would stop working. Gunnar's words.

Oh, the "solving things in hardware" thing is another reason why many developers are not so happy about Vampire, it puts limits on what "dirty tricks" you can do with software.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 27, 2017, 12:06:18 PM
Quote from: kolla;830087
There are a few others who go out of their way with caps-lock and exclamation marks


look, what you describe isnt a pattern with whoever is a vampire interested audience. you described a generic "fanboi" (or whatever it is called) who will hype whatever he sees an opportunity in. the particulars have usually been banned everywhere else, having previously hyped beyond reason and recognition something completely different.

Quote
the minions typically don't even have Vampire boards, but wow do they plan to!


yeah, here goes another characteristic of the kind, as if anybody was concerned to know their opinion or whatever they want to buy or not every other post.

do i need to mention, that i dont have a vampire an im still hesitant, if ill be ever getting one;)?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Zooz on August 27, 2017, 03:20:16 PM
@kolla

About Atari, well ok, this was old discuss, never applied. Currentely there seems to be more opportunities to run FreeMiNT upon EmuTOS, at native speed, on SAGA screen (already working and demo'ed).

About the video memory, the framebuffer is the FastRAM, there is no intermediates from a coder/user point of view, what you poke is what you see, there is no recopy or mapping needed.

About MMU, i totally agree the discuss about the need to provide debugging tools. That said, and not having a MMU on my vamp, i (had to) learn how to do without, and there is many way to debug without a MMU with some good or bad habbits. Also using UAE as companion, helps in this task.

I might have misunderstood about the minions, sorry then, english is not my native language, thus i agree there are such guys on the apollo forums, yes.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wawrzon on August 27, 2017, 08:15:07 PM
Quote from: Zooz;830098
Currentely there seems to be more opportunities to run FreeMiNT upon EmuTOS, at native speed, on SAGA screen (already working and demo'ed).


funny enough atari people are far more reasonable in applying their available open options that the majority of amiga crowd. i really envy these people. their practical approach gains my full sympathy.

Quote
That said, and not having a MMU on my vamp, i (had to) learn how to do without, and there is many way to debug without a MMU with some good or bad habbits. Also using UAE as companion, helps in this task.


vamp or no vamp, me mostly working on aros68k would be great to find out some way or share experience on debugging stuff, except of having a to put a debug statement every other function in the code. on aros we have gdb, but i have never got it working reliably with 68k.

Quote
I might have misunderstood about the minions, sorry then, english is not my native language, thus i agree there are such guys on the apollo forums, yes.


we cannot reduce a wider community to some maybe not so positive examples.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Nickman on August 28, 2017, 07:46:52 PM
Go online on irc and speak with flype.
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=2258
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Rotzloeffel on August 29, 2017, 08:38:38 AM
Quote from: kolla;830088
 Mind you, I am a Vampire user myself.

Me too :D And for me, there is absolutely no need for this massiv speed, running "old" Software.... There is a need for this massiv speed for doing grazy things with your Amiga, as I did in the past or do actually on my 060 and my PPC´s.... (NetBSD/Linux :) )

And, doing these grazy things requieres to have a compatible MMU and an FPU.... so for me, I still waiting for these both features.... meanwhile I have no usefull aplication which would require a Vampire :laughing:

for playing video, you can use a stock A500... thanks to AVI4HV :) check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2fUj14mF40
and how do do it for example on Linux :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2fUj14mF40
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BozzerBigD on August 29, 2017, 10:21:09 AM
@Rotzloeffel

AGA support, the ability to play AB3D 2 at a decent speed and with FPU support the ability to render faster on Lightwave. These seem to be the good points for me. I already have an 060 & RTG enabled big box Amiga so this isn't primarily aimed at me.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Rotzloeffel on August 29, 2017, 10:51:48 AM
Quote from: BozzerBigD;830203
@Rotzloeffel

AGA support, the ability to play AB3D 2 at a decent speed and with FPU support the ability to render faster on Lightwave.

That´s what I said.... no FPU no grazy things :) same with MMU...

If these applications you mentioned above are "grazy Things" for you, it is OK....

For me, the 68080 is the fastest available 68k CPU... why not use it for existing grazy 68k applications WITHOUT limits ?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 29, 2017, 12:15:07 PM
Quote from: Rotzloeffel;830204
That´s what I said.... no FPU no grazy things :) same with MMU...

If these applications you mentioned above are "grazy Things" for you, it is OK....

For me, the 68080 is the fastest available 68k CPU... why not use it for existing grazy 68k applications WITHOUT limits ?


WTF is a 'grazy' thing?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: David Wright on August 29, 2017, 01:53:54 PM
Crazy x2.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 29, 2017, 02:47:09 PM
Quote from: David Wright;830210
Crazy x2.


OK...and how are apps that require an mmu or an fpu crazy X2?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: David Wright on August 29, 2017, 04:31:30 PM
No, I am saying my interpretation of grazy must mean crazy times two.
I want fpu and mmu.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 29, 2017, 05:47:50 PM
"V4 will of course have 68882 compatible FPU."
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 30, 2017, 05:59:46 PM
Quote from: kolla;830222
"V4 will of course have 68882 compatible FPU."


Source for that quote?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on August 30, 2017, 06:31:16 PM
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=5931&order=&x=6

Quote

Gunnar von Boehn
(Apollo Team Member)
Posts 2726
29 Aug 2017 16:08

Vojin Vidanovic wrote:

Rod March wrote:
  Not looking for a promise, just an indication if it's even on the cards?
   

   
    I am not part of the team, but ...
   
  Its likely we will have Apollo FPU that might be used in new apps, likely in V4 Vampires.
  This means that 080 will be able of fast FPU operations with its optimized apps, but no 8882 compatibility there.
    That is my personal understanding of the situation.


Your understanding is all wrong
V4 will of course have 68882 compatible FPU.


Ofcourse, I never know if Gunnar is trolling for lolz, or serious. Time will show :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 31, 2017, 01:30:47 AM
"APOLLO HardFPU is 100% identical to the 68060 FPU from instructions."

Wonder which it really is, not that it matters much.
A little interesting that focus was said to be all on SAGA and not FPU :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: guest11527 on August 31, 2017, 10:13:11 AM
Quote from: kolla;830252
"APOLLO HardFPU is 100% identical to the 68060 FPU from instructions."
This can mean a lot of things. For example, it could mean "double precision only". This is probably ok for many applications. However, if this is a 68060 FPU, it also means that the transcend functions are missing. This is per se not a problem, there is a known good, known working solution for it. However, if you want to compute a function such as "sin" with double precision, you need some extra precision on top for the internal approximation. The Motorola FPSP uses extended precision internally where necessary, and ensures double precision output.

I do not know how to get a double-precision-precise sin-function without extended precision math. sin() is slow anyhow, so it would not be necessary to have an extra-fast-math for this.

Then again, to be fair, I do not know which Amiga software exactly required this either... I'm probably too much a mathematician here.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 31, 2017, 12:51:51 PM
Quote from: Thomas Richter;830261
Then again, to be fair, I do not know which Amiga software exactly required this either...


Maybe virus scanners can be trained to look for such code :roflmao:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 31, 2017, 02:11:22 PM
The Atari ST could use an accelerator that doesn't introduce timing issues into the chipset.
And the Vampires built-in MMU remapping ability may prove very useful once someone commits to exploring Vampire use in the ST more thoroughly.

Its also great to see a firm commitment to a Motorola standard FPU implementation.

Maybe we ought to come up with terms/phrases that differentiate between the hidden MMU remapping capabilities and any Motorola layer added later.

And its nice to see the realists and the 'fanbois' more unified behind this project.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 31, 2017, 03:24:44 PM
Quote from: Iggy;830264

Its also great to see a firm commitment to a Motorola standard MMU implementation.


???

:confused:
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 31, 2017, 06:17:46 PM
Quote from: kolla;830266
???

:confused:


Sorry...fpu.

That was confused, wasn't it.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on August 31, 2017, 09:50:03 PM
Quote from: Iggy;830274
Sorry...fpu.

That was confused, wasn't it.

Yes, especially since you wrote "remapping", as memory mapping is the job of an MMU :p
Ah, that part was about MMU. See? You threw me off, and brain stopped working :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on August 31, 2017, 09:58:21 PM
Quote from: kolla;830285
Yes, especially since you wrote "remapping", as memory mapping is the job of an MMU :p
Ah, that part was about MMU. See? You threw me off, and brain stopped working :)


Obviously, mine was on hold...:lol:

Guess I was still stunned at the announcement that an fpu would be part of the V4.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on September 01, 2017, 09:48:08 PM
Some words of wisdom from Apollo Core forum regarding the MMU and Amiga:

-- "it slows the computer down"
-- "98% or more of classic Amiga software development was done on a 68K processor which didn't have an MMU."
-- "Having an MMU to debug and trap illegal instructions was a nice feature that came along later and only served to encourage poor programming habits by assembly programmers."
-- "Some creative developers just wrote some tools to take advantage of the MMU for debugging later in the Amiga's life cycle since one had been integrated into the 68030 and above."
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Iggy on September 01, 2017, 09:53:02 PM
Quote from: kolla;830303
Some words of wisdom from Apollo Core forum regarding the MMU and Amiga:

-- "it slows the computer down"
-- "98% or more of classic Amiga software development was done on a 68K processor which didn't have an MMU."
-- "Having an MMU to debug and trap illegal instructions was a nice feature that came along later and only served to encourage poor programming habits by assembly programmers."
-- "Some creative developers just wrote some tools to take advantage of the MMU for debugging later in the Amiga's life cycle since one had been integrated into the 68030 and above."


"Wisdom", huh?
MMUs provide functionality unrelated to debugging or trapping illegal instructions.
And poor programming habits seem to be a frequent problem in the Amiga community that limiting hardware functionality is not going to improve.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: QuikSanz on September 02, 2017, 04:05:36 AM
I'll be ready for a V4 in a couple months, Need to take out the MB on my A2000 and send to Acill first for a good refurbishing. I hope I have the timing about right!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: SHADES on September 03, 2018, 10:24:04 AM
MMU is needed to perform things like Virtual Memory. Much like the swap file in Linux or Windows page file.
Very useful to have.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: SamuraiCrow on September 03, 2018, 05:17:51 PM
Just because the 68080 will have an incompatible MMU to the 68060 doesn't mean it won't have one.  In fact, the new "split" MMU style is one of the more advanced features of the CPU.  Memory protection has its own seperate unit with byte-level granularity while the PMMU will have a much larger page size than previous models to keep overhead to a minimum.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: outlawal2 on September 03, 2018, 11:04:17 PM
Ok am interested in the standalone. Other than the standard "2 weeks!" any idea on availability of this item? (Pretty much given up on the Tabor at this point)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: SamuraiCrow on September 04, 2018, 05:18:44 AM
The circuit boards are in production but the SAGA graphics core is still in development.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: ronniebeck on September 04, 2018, 09:14:37 AM
The circuit boards are in production but the SAGA graphics core is still in development.

Incorrect.  The SAGA core has been released for quite some time.  What we are waiting on is the testing of the AGA re-implementation which is currently with beta testers.  This will be released as the Apollo Core version Gold 3 and is due, according to the developers, very soon (end of summer was the quoted time).  But as is always the case in the Amiga world, it takes time.

The latest official information we have is here:  http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1&note=15593

Better to go to the Apollo Core forums to get information than from here.  The developers of the project are highly active there:  http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on September 07, 2018, 10:04:15 AM
Skipp is a beta tester of Gold 3, and publishes them onto youtube.

Here is a nice demo and its performance;
Push Entertainment "Mental" Amiga AGA Demo (Vampire 600 V2)

Apollo Core rev. 5282 (beta GOLD3 AGA core) running "Mental" by Push Entertainment (2003). Realtime 50fps capture from HDMI (576p video and Paula 16 bit audio via digital stream) with StarTech PEXHDCAP. 1280x720 crop.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5qBscKdJiA
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on September 07, 2018, 09:29:50 PM
http://forum.apollo-accelerators.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1937

September Activity Report

As summer is ending soon, people are coming back from the sea to what really matters: Amiga love. After a general slowdown in team this summer, we are also back again at work and here are the news!

Events

Apollo Team will be attending some events in next months and we are very excited to meet people there and discuss about Vampire:

    Classic Computing 2018 on 22+23th of September in Oedheim-Degmarn (Germany)

    µAlchimie V on 20+21th of October in Clérieux (France)

We will bring nice surprises at those events but I won’t tell more about it, you just have to be there ;-)

GOLD2.11

GOLD2.x development branch is still ongoing and we should soon release a new iteration of that core series with name of GOLD2.11 (our marketing team took weeks to choose that incredible and over original name). GOLD2.11 will introduce some very interesting feature like blitter improvement, which should fix lot of badly written games running on WHDLoad that where messing with IRQ a bit too much.

FPU has also been improved by a large margin: we were able to use bit of remaining FPGA space to extend precision of FPU up to 50Bit. This improvement fixes Elude RTG demos that were affected by the « date bug » reported on A1k. MacOS emulation was also affected by this (you could see it when running Warcraft 2, intro movie was a slideshow). Kiero helped us to address this issue and we thank him for that, thanks man!

We also introduced Out-of-Order execution on FPU instructions, which speeds up operation by another great margin when software takes advantage of it. For example, POVray likes it very much and calculation is now faster on 3D rendering scenes.

Team is also working on ICache Prefetch. This feature will also speed up lot of programs that can take advantage of it. This one is not trivial and need to be implemented conscientiously to not introduce unwanted behaviour. If it gets good enough, it will make its way in GOLD2.11.

All in one, we are super excited about bringing GOLD2.11 to all, it will make Vampire V2 even faster while improving compatibility with old games.

GOLD3

GOLD3 branch development has also continued during this summer. We went through quite a lot of games and fixed lot of them but it still requires some love. We are thinking about releasing GOLD3 as alpha and open a webpage to report bugs to help speeding up development.

Bug reports for GOLD3 would require some rules to be followed to be considered. Reporting « it doesn’t work » won’t be useful and time wasting for team.

In next days that webpage will be set up and more communication will flow accordingly. Stay tuned, AGA for everyone is around the corner.

Vampire V4

Vampire V4 is being actively tested and we are still in process of porting current core code from Cyclone III to Cyclone V. As Cyclone V FPGA cells responds very differently from the good old C3, we need to make sure that core behaves as expected on it on every case we throw at him. This process is long and very exhausting and is even involving people from Altera to make it happen.

Checkmate A1500 Plus

Our friend Stephen Jones just launched a kickstarter campaign for his checkmate A1500 Plus case, which is a perfect fit for a Vampirized Amiga. We fully support him and hope he will achieve full success on his campaign. If you haven’t yet baked it, it’s time to. Go get one here now.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wizzard_o on September 08, 2018, 09:09:20 AM
How is the A1200 version coming along?   ???

Wizz.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on September 29, 2018, 05:51:14 PM
Skipp, which is a beta tester, has finally gotten his hands on a V4, and have run thru a few demos.

Ghostown & Loonies "Human Traffic" Amiga AGA Demo (Vampire V4)

First ever capture from my shiny new Vampire V4 :) "Human Traffic" AGA/FPU demo by GTN&LNS (2011). Running on alpha AGA+FPU core revision 5484 (~92MHz, not 78MHz despite what "WhichAmiga" thinks). Recorded in realtime 720x576 50fps with StarTech PEXHDCAP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eseAQFySGzY

The Black Lotus "Ocean Machine" Amiga AGA Demo (Vampire V4)

One of TBL's finest productions so far, "Ocean Machine" AGA/FPU demo running on A500 with Vampire V4 and 68080 alpha 5484 core. Realtime recording with StarTech PEXHDCAP (PAL 720x576@50).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWtIAagvEeo

Focus Design "Aulun Baulund" Amiga AGA Demo (Vampire V4)

Apollo Core rev. 5484 (AGA/FPU) running "Aulun Baulund" by Focus Design on Amiga 500 and Vampire V4 (92MHz). Realtime 720x576@50fps recording (StarTech PEXHDCAP/HDMI).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQLDUaLgVUQ
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on September 29, 2018, 06:09:45 PM
Vampire V2 Is Now AmigaOS 3.1.4 Ready

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1&note=17502

Quote
Thanks to the awesome work of Bax, all Vampire V2 are now ready for AmigaOS 3.1.4
 
All instructions available on our Wiki
EXTERNAL LINK
 
Ready for landing !

http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/doku.php/amigaos314

Some of the newer demos has been an issue for the Apollo Core, and it seems to be improving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ2Hy_3vBqU

Focus Design "Teobstrrofarfeia" Amiga AGA Demo (Vampire V4)

A500 with Vampire V4 and Apollo Core GOLD3 alpha (rev. 5484) running "Teobstrrofarfeia" by Focus Design (2012). Recorded in realtime 50fps with StarTech PEXHDCAP (HDMI 720x576).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ceqEptW3nc
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on October 03, 2018, 12:00:00 PM
The Guru Meditation uploaded a overview of the V4, presented by Manuel Jesus.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zaDLI19RTU
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on October 18, 2018, 01:10:07 PM
GOLD2.11 is now out !

[GOLD2.11] (18.10.2018)
* Added Out of Order Execution for FPU
* Improved FPU to 52bit precision (fixes Elude demos)
* Forward bug fixed (thanks to neoman)

http://wiki.apollo-accelerators.com/

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=6&note=17984&z=9PiZVA
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: NinjaCyborg on October 18, 2018, 02:28:24 PM
Is it possible to buy/preorder a V4 standalone??
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BozzerBigD on October 18, 2018, 09:35:38 PM
Why throw your money at Kipper and co. before there is a functioning mass produced board in existence? I mean a Tabor from A-EON would be nice but not without sound chip support or some way of telling if the product is actually finished!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: outlawal2 on October 19, 2018, 01:29:19 AM
Did you actually read what the OP asked?  He said absolutely nothing about the Tabor, his question was regarding a possible pre order of the VAMPIRE...

Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BozzerBigD on October 19, 2018, 10:24:29 AM
I am using the Tabor as another example of a product that it would be unwise to invest in prior to it actually being finished!! The Vampire team are operating like a small cottage industry despite the costs and complexity of the product involved. Good will has gotten them a long way with the Amiga community but I like to see things in the flesh (or silicon in this case ;-)) before stumping up any money upfront! Saying that, Tower57 and Brian Bagnall's books definitely deserved my support and I was tempted by the CheckMate case from Stephen Jones. They were cheaper/simpler products however.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on October 19, 2018, 10:44:27 AM
Well, V4 has been provided to betatesters, and they have started to release recordings of their testing.

With regards to the question; I havent seen any pre-order options for V4 (I havent looked very hard tho).

BigD have a point that putting money up front before a product is released can be risky, so its a fair comment.
That said; the Vampire/Apollo team has delivered on the V2 front, so I wouldnt feel it to be a risky venture to pre-order V4 if that option was available.

I understand the intrest in such an option tho, since the V2 queue was/is quite long, and unless you ordered as soon as it was available, you where in for several months of wait.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BozzerBigD on October 19, 2018, 11:05:47 AM
Not an issue for me as I have an 060 with Picasso IV system to play with so the speed increases are not as significant for me. For an 030 AGA user I can understand the hussle ;-) Also, life is short and these projects take so long.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Niding on October 19, 2018, 11:23:55 AM
Yes, life is short.

Which is why Im not fuzzed about the speed of these projects, since I cant take anything with me to the grave (I can, but I wont care). I ordered the V2, and "forgot" about it. Then suddenly it appeared in the mail. The wait didnt hurt, since life goes on in parallel.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BozzerBigD on October 19, 2018, 12:21:28 PM
Money can be gaining interest in our accounts rather than theirs in the meantime. Holidays can be booked, plans made and even real tangible Amiga hardware bought off the shelf in the meantime. I'm sure the Apollo Team's 'war chest' is deep enough now that they don't need our money up front. Be patient and a constant supply will eventually come. That is if the operate like a normal 'supply and demand' company rather than a Nintendo-like company artificially restricting supply to drive up the demand and price!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: NinjaCyborg on October 19, 2018, 01:33:25 PM
Money can be gaining interest in our accounts rather than theirs in the meantime. Holidays can be booked, plans made and even real tangible Amiga hardware bought off the shelf in the meantime. I'm sure the Apollo Team's 'war chest' is deep enough now that they don't need our money up front. Be patient and a constant supply will eventually come. That is if the operate like a normal 'supply and demand' company rather than a Nintendo-like company artificially restricting supply to drive up the demand and price!

Why so bitter and twisted?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Crom00 on October 19, 2018, 02:17:10 PM
There is no conspiracy in terms or production or pricing. The team is working on the core, the team is small. I paid for my Vampire 4 in summer 2017 as a tester. It took a year to get one due to a nasty bug that prevented bringup. Once the board came to life I had a V4 within a couple of weeks for demos and testing. Happy to try and help .
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: NinjaCyborg on October 19, 2018, 06:53:30 PM
There is no conspiracy in terms or production or pricing. The team is working on the core, the team is small. I paid for my Vampire 4 in summer 2017 as a tester. It took a year to get one due to a nasty bug that prevented bringup. Once the board came to life I had a V4 within a couple of weeks for demos and testing. Happy to try and help .

Great, who do you contact to get on the list?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Lord Aga on October 20, 2018, 07:19:09 PM
^ Search for user 'Kolla' here on the board. He's happy to help with everything Vampire related.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: NinjaCyborg on October 21, 2018, 10:30:46 AM
^ Search for user 'Kolla' here on the board. He's happy to help with everything Vampire related.

LOL are you kidding? Reading his posts, he seems like quite a dick.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Lord Aga on October 21, 2018, 11:52:38 AM
You've passed the test with flying colors :D

Now seriously, PM me with anything you want to know about the V4.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: BozzerBigD on October 21, 2018, 08:43:43 PM
@Lord Aga

All anyone wants to know is when it'll go on general sale. Not who you have to secret handshake or bribe to get up the queue but when the regular man and his dog will get a chance to own one. The Amiga community would happily help drum up hype for the board if there was an official release date but this whole 'queuing at the factory gate' way of doing business really sucks IMHO!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: rmarkus on September 27, 2019, 12:54:29 PM
As disclosed some weeks ago, first batch will be sold at Amiga34 directly to people attending the event. Next batches will be sold indirectly only by our resellers listed in our WiKi.
     
The Vampire V4 Standalone comes in standard with aluminium case, corresponding PSU and shipped with AROS kickstart.
     
For A34, a special bundle will be made available with free "give-aways" add-ons like compatible Mouse, compatible Keyboard, CF-Adapter a 32GB CF card and an USB Blaster. Later, resellers will have the opportunity to sell their own bundles.
     
Terms & conditions
      * Payment will be accepted in cash or via PayPal.
      * Limitation of one unit per person
      * Offer is available until stock remains, even regarding accessories
      * No support is offered on accessories/give-aways
      * Complete warranty terms are available on our WiKi on EXTERNAL LINK     
Information regarding current state of the standalone core
      * Ethernet: work is in progress, driver is being written.
      * USB: support for some input devices like USB mice and keyboards. Support
      for more is in progress. Compatibility list available on WiKi ( EXTERNAL LINK )
      * Joystick : Status support of AMIGA Joy (like Competition Pro)
      * OCS/AGA: Many games and demos work perfectly, but not 100%.
      * Boot drives: boot from IDE/CF, microSD card for data exchange. Bootable
      microSD is in roadmap.
     
Price of that special A34 bundle is 549€
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: AmigaOldskooler on September 28, 2019, 07:40:48 PM
That is great news! :) Looking forward to it becoming available from resellers in the near future. Hopefully some of them will offer bundles with nice cases and extras.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TribbleSmasher on September 28, 2019, 07:50:27 PM
I am afraid that the price will scare people off, as stated here they included the extras for free. That would mean the case is the only piece costing money in this equation; lets settle this as high as 30€.
So, the barebone Vampire4 will still cost as much as 500€, which is a lot (i am not saying it is not worth it!).
I would like to see a 68080 Chip in the future, but i doubt this is going to be the way to achive this. One would have to sell thousands of those V4 for this to get the money in for funding an ASIC.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: wiser3 on September 28, 2019, 11:52:58 PM
That is great news! :) Looking forward to it becoming available from resellers in the near future. Hopefully some of them will offer bundles with nice cases and extras.

Adding a North American reseller like Amiga on the Lake would be great.
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TribbleSmasher on September 29, 2019, 01:15:51 PM
Preorder is already possible at Amedia-computer.com (France) for 589€ incl. tax.
https://www.amedia-computer.com/en/accueil/320-amiga-vampire-v4-standalone.html
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Crom00 on September 29, 2019, 02:28:42 PM
Hi price feels high BUT I remember when the Vampire cards were going for $175 euros. Folks would purchase 3, put two on ebay and keep one. So if the higher price puts money into hands of the developers and not ebay re sellers I am ok with that. Also they aren't just slapping an off the shelf 060 chip on there they are developing a modern day equivalent AND supporting lots of ports behind the scenes.

If someone want's to compete and offer something better for a better price go for it!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TribbleSmasher on September 29, 2019, 02:40:56 PM
The first Vampires were handmade; the developer literally worked himself to the hospital, so that initial price was far from fair.

I agree this price for the V4 is a little steep, but still cheaper than a snd hand Cyberstorm ;D
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TribbleSmasher on September 29, 2019, 03:04:43 PM
I found something other interesting. Gunnar has connected a V4 to a Motorola Lapdock, which is a little notebook-like device without a mainboard.
The real deal here is, this docks battery can power the V4, so one can finally create a mobile Amiga.
Quote
he Laptop is designed as "empty"
The Laptop has Monitor, and Speaker, and Keyboard and the battery -
but its designed that the "computing" is done outside of it.
This means you need to attach a "computer" to it on the back.
The V4-Standalone is plugged into it on the back.

The battery of the LAPTOP powers the V4-SA.
This gives you a mobile AMIGA.
(http://apollo-core.com/gfx/Arne_Laptop640.jpg)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: AmigaOldskooler on September 29, 2019, 03:30:50 PM
Preorder is already possible at Amedia-computer.com (France) for 589€ incl. tax.
https://www.amedia-computer.com/en/accueil/320-amiga-vampire-v4-standalone.html

Thanks for the heads-up!  :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Pgovotsos on September 29, 2019, 07:11:48 PM
I found something other interesting. Gunnar has connected a V4 to a Motorola Lapdock, which is a little notebook-like device without a mainboard.
The real deal here is, this docks battery can power the V4, so one can finally create a mobile Amiga.
Quote
he Laptop is designed as "empty"
The Laptop has Monitor, and Speaker, and Keyboard and the battery -
but its designed that the "computing" is done outside of it.
This means you need to attach a "computer" to it on the back.
The V4-Standalone is plugged into it on the back.

The battery of the LAPTOP powers the V4-SA.
This gives you a mobile AMIGA.
(http://apollo-core.com/gfx/Arne_Laptop640.jpg)

I actually blew the money on one of those to use with a Droid 4. This looks like a much better use for it! Do you have a link to where he is posting about it?
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: AmigaOldskooler on September 29, 2019, 07:48:29 PM
I found something other interesting. Gunnar has connected a V4 to a Motorola Lapdock, which is a little notebook-like device without a mainboard.
The real deal here is, this docks battery can power the V4, so one can finally create a mobile Amiga.
Quote
he Laptop is designed as "empty"
The Laptop has Monitor, and Speaker, and Keyboard and the battery -
but its designed that the "computing" is done outside of it.
This means you need to attach a "computer" to it on the back.
The V4-Standalone is plugged into it on the back.

The battery of the LAPTOP powers the V4-SA.
This gives you a mobile AMIGA.
(http://apollo-core.com/gfx/Arne_Laptop640.jpg)

I actually blew the money on one of those to use with a Droid 4. This looks like a much better use for it! Do you have a link to where he is posting about it?

Here is the link to the post about the laptop on the Apollo Core Forum:

http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5&note=19440&z=oozE9h

 :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TribbleSmasher on September 29, 2019, 08:10:39 PM
Yes, i like the idea as well.

You still have to get some weird adapters to make it happen:
a microHDMI(female!)->HDMI and
a microUSB (female!)->USB.

But then it is damn cool! 8)

We have to get numbers for runtime on battery, still...

EDIT
Adapter gender changed dep. point of view...
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TribbleSmasher on October 04, 2019, 03:29:03 PM
As the Vampire 4 is shipped with AROS, the team behind it shows an updated status on the matter, regarding what is running and what not.
16mins on Youtube:
https://youtu.be/ubSfTa_hhek

Src:
http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5&note=23753&z=HPfEZ4

Expansion port testing(local video):
http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5&note=23725&z=HPfEZ4
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Primax on October 06, 2019, 06:13:16 AM
May I ask a question about the V 1200?
Where it is installed? Does it replace my Blizzard 1230? Where can I look up it?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TribbleSmasher on October 06, 2019, 09:28:26 AM
That is right, it is the usual shaped turbocard and will replace your old one. It is due to be released in Q3 this year.


http://apollo-core.com/index.htm?page=products

http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5&note=22998&order=&x=0
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: kolla on October 06, 2019, 09:45:18 AM
Are we not in Q4 of this year already? :)
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: TribbleSmasher on October 06, 2019, 09:49:17 AM
Depends on which calendar they use. ;D
They say its postponed after V4 satandalone....
Title: Re: Apollo Team announces the Vampire V4
Post by: Pgovotsos on October 06, 2019, 12:53:35 PM
Changed my mind - deleted.