Amazing! New A500+ kit available at A1k!

[Iggy]

A lot of laws, including US/UK/EU, make it unlawful to be unfair in certain circumstances.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_competition

I think you misunderstood his point.

Making ROHS optional for businesses that aren't real businesses (honest) would mean that every single manufacturer would do whatever it took to become a not real business. It's plain to see what companies like Apple/Starbucks/etc did to make it look like they didn't make a profit in certain countries, so they could avoid paying taxes.

Wikis, got love 'em, they are always so fact based. :laugh1:
"This article needs additional citations for verification."

Yeah, it attempts to brand real criminal activities are merely "unfair competition", so its full of a great generalizations, but not terribly accurate.

And so far, we've ascertained that the bare board doesn't violate ROHS rules, so why continue to push this issue?

Also, say you give me money when I go out to buy a cup of coffee, so that I might get you one.
Does this put me in business as a supplier of coffee?

No guys, businesses are licensed entities.
Asking for compensation for your expenses in a group hobbyist venture is NOT a business activity.

[guest11527]

And so far, we've ascertained that the bare board doesn't violate ROHS rules, so why continue to push this issue?

Also, say you give me money when I go out to buy a cup of coffee, so that I might get you one.
Does this put me in business as a supplier of coffee?

If you just trade with me by pure chance, then likely no. If you offer a coffee service on the internet, then likely yes. There is no "clear cut" decision of whether you offer something "as a hobby" or "for a business", as almost always in legal issues.

ROHS is just one out of many aspects of the problem. Warranty is another. It's something *you have* to comply to if you run a business.

Look, apparently, you do not want to understand what you do not know. No worries. Those that want to make the board available apparently do. So respect their decision. Get it, or leave it, but do not critize something you do not (want to) know the backgrounds of.

No guys, businesses are licensed entities.

So now, what happens if you sell "sufficient quantities" without offering the services a business needs to provide?

If it would be so simple, then there would be an easy way around all the "anoying" parts of business, such as warranty or compliance to environmental regulations: "Do not register you business".

As you see, this is probably *not* a good idea.

Asking for compensation for your expenses in a group hobbyist venture is NOT a business activity.

And *who* decides this? The owner of the business, sorry, hobby? Probably not.

In reality, your competitor will send you a "call to order" through a lawyer, and yes, here in Germany, you - getting the order - have then to pay. No matter whether this is the first time you get such a "call to order" or not.

This has unfortunately become a "business model" for some lawyers, sending such calls in massive quantities to people for various reasons.

All of this can be prevented with a bit of precaution, and this precaution has been taken here. So, either register at a1k, or leave it.

[Oldsmobile_Mike]

All these comments about German business laws are making my head hurt.  They should just come over here and set up shop in the US!  :banana: :banana:

[paul1981]

Surely these old chips cause less harm to the earth if they are used as opposed to entering landfill?

[psxphill]

And so far, we've ascertained that the bare board doesn't violate ROHS rules, so why continue to push this issue?

They are two completely separate points.

We're doing A only because of B.
You don't need to do A because B doesn't apply.
Yes, we're doing A only because of B.
You don't need to do A because B doesn't apply.
Yes....

So this intrigues me as to the real motive/whether they are arguing disingenuously.

Also, say you give me money when I go out to buy a cup of coffee, so that I might get you one.
Does this put me in business as a supplier of coffee?

I don't know the people on a1k.org and they are controlling who can buy the board. So it's not a good analogy.

If you pursuaded starbucks to stock your own special blend of coffee which they would only supply to customers that you authorised and I gave you money and you told them to produce a cup of your special blend of coffee for me, then yes you are in business as a supplier of coffee.

No guys, businesses are licensed entities.

Licensed for what and by whom?

I can get up tomorrow and find someone who is willing to pay me to work tomorrow. That would be my business and I don't need a license. As a self employed person I may be required to fill in a tax return, but if I don't then that doesn't stop me from being a business.

Surely these old chips cause less harm to the earth if they are used as opposed to entering landfill?

I believe ROHS allows for the re-use of old chips for repairing equipment made before 2006. Of course https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus becomes relevant here. I certainly should be allowed to buy NOS chips to repair an a500+ and I should also be allowed to buy a brand new pcb. But getting cases, keyboards and pcbs manufactured and fitting them with NOS chips maybe not.

[Iggy]

All these comments about German business laws are making my head hurt.  They should just come over here and set up shop in the US!  :banana: :banana:

Honestly, I thought our lawyers were the biggest vermin on the planet until I heard of this "call to order" issue.

And as to not understanding manufacturing, I'll freely admit I don't understand the German restrictions on it.
But it seems obvious that those same restrictions could be a driving force influencing multi-nationals to not consider Gemany as a location for manufacturing.

I thought we had intense environmental regulation over here.
But I'd have no problem coping with US regulations covering this endeavor.

And come to think of it, since I have been using Chinese fabricators for the last several years, it really hasn't been an issue.

And yes, lead in landfills (my country's primary way of disposing of waste) could lead to long term problems.

Finally, throughout this thread we keep hearing how German regulations protect the consumer, but it seems like the costs of this protection AND the opportunistic activities of German lawyers are fairly injurious themselves.

[guest11527]

Honestly, I thought our lawyers were the biggest vermin on the planet until I heard of this "call to order" issue.

Similar instruments exist in the US in the form of "Cease and Desist" letters.

It is not exactly the same as the German instrument, and I cannot answer you whether the first letter is "for free" in the US, i.e. you just receive the letter and must then stop the activity under question "or else". In Germany, and this is really a problematic issue, the first such letter is *not* fo free. You - receiving such a letter - must pay the lawyer sending this letter, no matter whether you stop or do not stop your activity.

I personally consider this a very questionable instrument as it requires the receiver of such a letter to take a legal action against another lawyer, which again might (or will) cost money. Unless in some obvious cases...

So yes, better be safe than sorry.

And as to not understanding manufacturing, I'll freely admit I don't understand the German restrictions on it.

It is not a question of "manufacturing" primarely, though this also plays into the problem. It is a question of competition regulations. That alone is not solely a German problem either. The "Call to order" regulation is one.

But it seems obvious that those same restrictions could be a driving force influencing multi-nationals to not consider Gemany as a location for manufacturing.

Not exactly the same, but similar laws exist in other countries, one way or another, so that is not exactly a German-only problem with manufacturing.

We cannot be that unsuccessful, though. Our export surplus is larger than that of China (i.e. exports in relation to imports) in 2016 - actually, it is the largest in the world. No, I'm not making this up. In 2015, we were "only" at position 2 behind China:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance

(Probably to the surprise of many.)

Changed in 2016 (i.e. China behind Germany), but wikipedia does not yet list it.

The problem is that workforce is quite expensive over here (unlike China, but getting better? worse? there, too.). Not really the regulations. Every country has some. Countries that have less have other problems. I've been in China in October (Chengdu, a "small" town in the chinese province of ~14 million people) and haven't seen the sun for ten days due to smog.

No, I don't want that.

I thought we had intense environmental regulation over here.
But I'd have no problem coping with US regulations covering this endeavor.

I do not know whether you had been in contact with such regulations? I'm not an expert either, but there are a couple of other certificates you need (for Germany, or for the European Union, the CE certificate comes to my mind).

Finally, throughout this thread we keep hearing how German regulations protect the consumer, but it seems like the costs of this protection AND the opportunistic activities of German lawyers are fairly injurious themselves.

German lawyers are a class of themselves. Problem is probably similar to the US: If you look at the profession of politicians, then you find lawyers at position 1. So, why would they make laws that work against their profession? (Probably not so different in the US).

Second problem: More or less by definition, a lawyer is a man whose oppinion can be bought by money. (After all, you need one to defend your position in court). Now, which story does this actually tell about politics?

So yes, democracy is probably the worst political system, except all other possible political systems I can think of. (-:

[James1095]

In the quantities this sort of thing will be sold in, I seriously doubt anyone is going to be hassled by the ROHS police. This is a niche hobbyist product, I would be shocked if more than 100 are produced, not a mass produced consumer item where they are rolling off the assembly line by the hundreds of thousands.

I can only wonder where all these NOS chips are coming from though, did Commodore have a massive stock of them that was liquidated? They went under more than 20 years ago.

[psxphill]

And yes, lead in landfills (my country's primary way of disposing of waste) could lead to long term problems.

It's not just lead and the US has a history of poisoning it's population if it meant saving money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_groundwater_contamination

I'm glad that regulations like ROHS exist.

I can only wonder where all these NOS chips are coming from though, did Commodore have a massive stock of them that was liquidated? They went under more than 20 years ago.

You'd be surprised what turns up in warehouses. The NOS A1200's that turned up a couple of years ago had been sitting in a warehouse for over a decade.

[Iggy]

It's not just lead and the US has a history of poisoning it's population if it meant saving money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_groundwater_contamination

I'm glad that regulations like ROHS exist.

Since I live fairly close to one of the Dupont plants that developed tetra ethyl lead, I am fully aware that we have a history of promoting dangerous materials.
But ROHS restricions are really not a significant part of the solution to this.
And many substances beyond lead are problematic.

At least we have stepped away from the long chain chlorine related chemistry that was popular in my youth.
And significant strides have been made in improving water and air quality.

As a childhood asthmatic living near an oil refinery, I can testify to the fact that the environment in the area I grew up in is much healthier.

[James1095]

The issue I have with ROHS is that it's too draconian. It's one thing to reduce the amount of lead and other toxic substances used in products but banning substances outright tends to create unintended consequences, particularly when done so by politicians that lack a real understanding of the issue they are legislating. I'm far more concerned by the disposable trend that has become so prevalent, whenever anything has a minor problem people just throw it away and buy a new one. I have a 2 year old 60" LCD TV that I rescued from a dumpster, it only needed a new LED strip in the backlight and someone simply discarded the whole thing and bought a new one. There would be a FAR greater environmental benefit by building stuff for a longer life cycle and building it to be serviceable rather than simply thrown away, and then ensuring that all this stuff is properly recycled when it is disposed of.

On the topic of recycling E-waste, I would really like to see a re-use program where items dropped off for recycling are sent to a staging area where they can be grabbed by those who are able to repair or reuse rather than automatically dumping everything into containers for processing as is normally done now. By far the most efficient form of recycling is reuse, either of the entire item or salvageable components.

[Oldsmobile_Mike]

@James1095 - boy have you got that right!  I hate to see perfectly good stuff get thrown away.  You might enjoy this video, it's been making the rounds on Facebook lately (41 million views):

https://www.facebook.com/ATTNVideo/videos/1626807070957581/?pnref=story

Sure would love to have a "Repair Cafe" near me!

[a-pex]

ROHS:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive
CE:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking
WEEE:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive
...and there are more you have to take care.

You are always speaking about Germany, but Germany is part of the European Union
and all countries there have to apply the same EU laws. We take care for our enviroment.

[kolla]

Trump would be Trumpf in German...

Well, what is the traditional German name of Trondheim, the city I live in?

[kolla]

Led poisoning is a serious issue since it leads to mental disorders en mass. As demonstrated during this last election.

[David Wright]

Led poisoning is a serious issue since it leads to mental disorders en mass. As demonstrated during this last election.

Why, who did you people vote for?
Lead not Led unless you are talking about the other metal that is "Heavy"