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Offline kolla

Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #29 from previous page: December 12, 2015, 11:08:01 PM »
The m68k ISA is the same because it was an architecture with relatively short lifespan. Or one can easily say Coldfire is the same arch and that m68k hence struggle with same issues. The many incarnations of ARM is a result of evolution and what keeps it relevant. In context of Linux, this variation is not much of a problem, it is something we are used to, something we deal with all the time regardless of architecture. There is no "win32" for Linux, we use sources.

And yeah, I know what goes on with Linux on m68k, been on that boat since 1994. I believe my Minimig has a uCLinux disk image that I built some years ago. Those people you speak of, they all left because of limitations in Amiga OS, both technically and legally. Amiga OS can never replace uCLinux either, sadly.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 11:14:24 PM by kolla »
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Offline kolla

Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2015, 11:13:27 PM »
Btw, you should check out the Steam Machine, a Linux based gaming console.
http://store.steampowered.com/universe/machines/
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Offline matthey

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2015, 04:38:11 AM »
Quote from: kolla;800157
The m68k ISA is the same because it was an architecture with relatively short lifespan. Or one can easily say Coldfire is the same arch and that m68k hence struggle with same issues. The many incarnations of ARM is a result of evolution and what keeps it relevant. In context of Linux, this variation is not much of a problem, it is something we are used to, something we deal with all the time regardless of architecture. There is no "win32" for Linux, we use sources.


Well, x86/x86_64 primarily had one standard upgrade path. ARM branches out with 4 modes and hundreds of CPU variations. ColdFire is a different architecture than the 68k although there are many similarities in the ISA and hardware designs. They are incompatible which was really a dumb move or deliberately done to kill the 68k and force the users to the PPC. ColdFire is a cut down 68k which lost a significant amount of performance. Some of the ColdFire ISA changes make sense while others looks like bolt-ons with little forethought. IMO, there are too many ColdFire variations also although the base integer CPU has a standard upgrade path (ISA_A -> ISA_B -> ISA_C).

Quote from: kolla;800157

And yeah, I know what goes on with Linux on m68k, been on that boat since 1994. I believe my Minimig has a uCLinux disk image that I built some years ago. Those people you speak of, they all left because of limitations in Amiga OS, both technically and legally. Amiga OS can never replace uCLinux either, sadly.


AmigaOS would not fully replace uCLinux but Linux cut down and without an MMU is much closer to AmigaOS. I bet these guys would have loved to work with AmigaOS instead. You have all these Amiga guys who went off into different influential development directions while the Amiga has wasted away locked up by its "protectors" for a few rich elitists. I hope Jay Miner can't see what has become of his dream.

Quote from: kolla;800158
Btw, you should check out the Steam Machine, a Linux based gaming console.
http://store.steampowered.com/universe/machines/


The Steam Machine and SteamOS have some good ideas and some things I don't like. I would like more of a full fledged computer with the standard target for games. It is a little higher spec and thus price than I would think necessary. I can comfortably play games like Path of Exile and Dungeons and Dragons Online with a Core 2 Duo, 2GB of memory and a low end Radeon R7 250 with 1 GB GDDR5. Much more than that and a big loud fan in a big case with a big costly power supply (One Steam Box had something like a 450W power supply) that sucks juice like no tomorrow is necessary. My setup only costs about $150 total by the way. Let's not compare the performance to any of the next (last) generation "elite" Amigas either.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2015, 05:04:47 AM »
Those developers who left to become core BSD and Linux contributors have all been quite open about why Amiga OS was not an option. uCLinux on m68k was originally something made for palm pilots, then Atari ST, and then ported to Amiga by Geert Uytterhoeven, you know, the guy behind MuFS and many other things you can find on aminet. He is to this day main coordinator of Linux/m68k. uCLinux has strength over Amiga OS in that it is open source and hence customizable, mostly posix compliant and with subsets of the well known interfaces found on "full" Linux, including modern IP stack. Amiga OS falls short very quickly.
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Offline warpdesign

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2015, 09:12:31 AM »
Quote
ARM is cheap but weak at single core performance. Older games and many new games need good single core performance. Yes, the 68k has the potential to have single core performance as good as the x86
Who cares about CPU performance ? The GPU is the thing that's important today. Any CPU is fast enough for gaming today and that's what is important.

Have you seen how weak the CPU found in PS4/XboxOne is ? And it's fast enough to emulate correctly a 3-core Xenon from the Xbox 360...

Quote
Yes, the 68k has the potential to have single core performance as good as the x86
"Has the potential" ? Via reimplementation on a FPGA ? Seriously ?

The 68k is dead. You seem to be driven by your nostalgy of the eighties. Gamers want games... they don't care about the CPU/GPU you may be using.

Some may be interested in Amiga games, but it's far from the majority, and UAE is more than enough for these people.

Sony chose MIPS because it had a meaning, changed to Power with the PS3, and made another change to x86 with the PS4. And people are still buying Sony consoles.

If CBM was alive, they likely would have switched architectures too, and hopefully would have rewrote the OS to be ready for such changes.. Which hasn't been done yet on the Amiga.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 09:17:59 AM by warpdesign »
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2015, 12:25:01 AM »
Quote from: kolla;800176
uCLinux has strength over Amiga OS in that it is open source and hence customizable, mostly posix compliant and with subsets of the well known interfaces found on "full" Linux, including modern IP stack. Amiga OS falls short very quickly.


Customizable becomes important at the low level of embedded systems. POSIX compliance is less important but makes porting code easier. A modern IP stack is a benefit of being a relevant OS which the held prisoner AmigaOS is not anymore. The AmigaOS was probably in the top 5 of personal computer OSs at one time and now it wouldn't break the top 20. Tech savvy kids today have probably never even heard of it :(.

Quote from: warpdesign;800177

Who cares about CPU performance ? The GPU is the thing that's important today. Any CPU is fast enough for gaming today and that's what is important.

Have you seen how weak the CPU found in PS4/XboxOne is ? And it's fast enough to emulate correctly a 3-core Xenon from the Xbox 360...


GPU performance is likely more important than CPU performance for games but CPU performance still matters. Most ARM processors would create a bottleneck for better games today. Exceptions may be ARMv8 (AArch64) but it is a completely different ISA than Thumb 2 which more closely resembles PPC (and will probably be the end of PPC as another high end RISC architecture is attempted). The PS4 and Xbox 360 CPUs are not weak just not clocked very high (1.6GHz and 1.75GHz respectively) as consoles have to find a compromise between performance, power consumption, cooling in a small case and cost. They opted for GPU performance and CPU efficiency with parallelism. Each core is actually pretty strong being CISC which is why emulating a much higher clocked PPC is no problem :D.

Quote from: warpdesign;800177

"Has the potential" ? Via reimplementation on a FPGA ? Seriously ?

The 68k is dead. You seem to be driven by your nostalgy of the eighties. Gamers want games... they don't care about the CPU/GPU you may be using.


The 68k would eventually need to become an ASIC to surpass higher clocked Thumb 2 and ColdFire processors in performance. Processors are developed in FPGA and the Apollo core has shown very good performance considering (outperforming several hard processors in performance/MHz). FPGA CPU performance requires high parallelism and a significant amount of pipelining which is needed by higher clocked hard CPUs also. Several people involved with the Apollo project have worked for IBM in Germany so they have some CPU development experience. I modified a code analyzer for the Apollo project and looked at a lot of code. The 68k has several advantages over the x86 and the bottlenecks can mostly be worked around.

The 68k and Amiga are dead but so what? The Ouya raised $8.5 million with kickstarter which would be more than enough to make an Amiga SoC ASIC. The Amiga would not become instantly relevant again but maybe tens of thousands of new Amiga motherboards sold for <$200 U.S. would breath some life into the dead Amiga. Otherwise the Amiga disappears as an old has been and no one remembers the significant technology and contributions.

Quote from: warpdesign;800177

Some may be interested in Amiga games, but it's far from the majority, and UAE is more than enough for these people.


UAE may be helping to keep the Amiga memory from fading but it is not a sustainable path or viable development target.

Quote from: warpdesign;800177

Sony chose MIPS because it had a meaning, changed to Power with the PS3, and made another change to x86 with the PS4. And people are still buying Sony consoles.


Sony has made a lot of mistakes and has a huge debt as a result.

Quote from: warpdesign;800177

If CBM was alive, they likely would have switched architectures too, and hopefully would have rewrote the OS to be ready for such changes.. Which hasn't been done yet on the Amiga.


C= may not have had a choice on whether to switch architectures. Changing architectures is a lot of software work and creates incompatibilities. It may be possible for a larger company but it could spell the end for smaller companies like A-EON/Hyperion. Developing a 68k Amiga SoC would be going back to the Amiga user base (and roots) gaining users instead of away from it where it would lose more of its already small user base. Being vertically integrated owning the hardware intellectual property allows to control your own destiny (no more forced ISA changes). It would be a good idea to partner with a knowledgeable ASIC producing company and try to produce products which could also be sold into the embedded market. I was talking to some people before Gunnar (Apollo core designer) decided to be all high and mighty about his project. One company was thinking about how they could use a high performance 68k in their embedded products instead of ARM. The Amiga seems to be about protecting intellectual property instead of developing, marketing and selling products though.
 

Offline som99

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2015, 12:55:42 AM »
Quote from: warpdesign;800177
Have you seen how weak the CPU found in PS4/XboxOne is ? And it's fast enough to emulate correctly a 3-core Xenon from the Xbox 360...

No no and no. They are re-compiling binaries in-house, hence why you are required to download the game after inserting a disc (if all would be emulated why would you have to download the game after inserting disc instead of just copying from disc?) and it's why they release new titles over time and not large amounts instant since they gotta compile and optimize the binaries for another architecture one game at a time.

The x86-64 Jaguar can NOT emulate the 3 core PPC in the 360.

Why so many people belive the Xbone binary translates the 360 CPU is beyond me, it's not doing that, some parts of the 360 hardware is emulated but not the CPU.

The Jaguar in the xbone is way to weak to do that.

Quote
"It is essentially the exact same code," Rayner replied. "The Xbox team converts the 360 game and 360 flash PPC executables into native x64 executables, packages those up with the 360 game assets, 360 flash and emulator as a regular Xbox One game, and publishes it."

Also you underestimate the need of raw CPU power in todays games. Using the CPU in PS4/Xbox one in a PC setup with high-end graphics cards and the CPU would be a bottleneck and hold the GPU back.

Here is an example taken from Sweclockers benchmarks. The Jaguar performs somewhat like the FX8150 if the 8150 was underclocked a lot (the Jaguar is running 1.75GHz in the Xbox one and 1.6GHz in the PS4 and the 8150 in this test runs 3.6GHz, IPC is basically the same). So you will quickly see that the Jaguar would hold the GPU back a lot if high settings and a high-end GPU was used.


Edit:
Even when looking at a 5 year old game like Skyrim you will see that the Fx8150 performs really bad at about half the framerate of a top end CPU using the same graphics card. Then think how horrid it would perform when clocked at the same speeds as the consoles.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 01:31:35 AM by som99 »
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2015, 03:34:10 AM »
Quote from: som99;800212
No no and no. They are re-compiling binaries in-house, hence why you are required to download the game after inserting a disc (if all would be emulated why would you have to download the game after inserting disc instead of just copying from disc?) and it's why they release new titles over time and not large amounts instant since they gotta compile and optimize the binaries for another architecture one game at a time.

Why do you think you're getting 33% frame drops depending on games if apps are recompiled ?

Quote

The x86-64 Jaguar can NOT emulate the 3 core PPC in the 360.

Of course it does... The PPC found inside the 360 is more than 12 years old (if you consider R&D).

Any modern ARM CPU like Apple 9x is already a lot faster than Xenon's CPU, even though it needs a lot more power and runs without a fan... No wonder modern x86 CPU may emulate it with proper JIT.

Quote

Why so many people belive the Xbone binary translates the 360 CPU is beyond me, it's not doing that, some parts of the 360 hardware is emulated but not the CPU.

The CPU is the only thing that can be emulated: everything else can be wrapped to host chips.

Quote

The Jaguar in the xbone is way to weak to do that.

It is weak, in todays standard, but certainly not weak compared to 25 years old computers: that was my point.

Quote

Also you underestimate the need of raw CPU power in todays games. Using the CPU in PS4/Xbox one in a PC setup with high-end graphics cards and the CPU would be a bottleneck and hold the GPU back.

And you surestimate the power needed in most games.

Oh, and not to mention that most GPU packed with current ARM SoC are designed to perform correctly with current ARM, or do you mean most ARM GPUs need a faster CPU than they currently got ?
 

Offline som99

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2015, 11:43:20 AM »
Quote from: warpdesign;800215
Why do you think you're getting 33% frame drops depending on games if apps are recompiled ?
Because lack of propper optimazation when compiling for another architecture.
You do not need to search far to find out that many console ports released on PC are badly optimized and eats resourcesn (same case with this).

Quote from: warpdesign;800215
Of course it does... The PPC found inside the 360 is more than 12 years old (if you consider R&D).
Good then we can emulate multicore 3GHz PPC CPU's on sub 100USD x86 CPU's and outperform most NG Amiga PPC's then, no need for PPC chips anymore... (sarcastic)

You know you need a i5/i7 @ 4GHz+ to emulate the WII PPC CPU, sure the binary translation could be better but that should be a good reference for you to know how demaning the erchitecture emulation is.

Quote from: warpdesign;800215
The CPU is the only thing that can be emulated: everything else can be wrapped to host chips.
I have not dwelled enough in the 360 hardware to know what needs to be emulated/wrapped/virtulized, but the Jaguar is not powerfull enough to emulate the 360's CPU. Just doing some numbercrunching on both CPU's and you will see that it is not possible and it's not like the binary translation is 1:1 ratio. Emulating the entire PPC RISC architecture on x86 is not feasable.


Quote from: warpdesign;800215
And you surestimate the power needed in most games.
Oh, and not to mention that most GPU packed with current ARM SoC are designed to perform correctly with current ARM, or do you mean most ARM GPUs need a faster CPU than they currently got ?
You said that any CPU is fast enough today for gaming not just ARM. So you are saying the ARM CPU's is fast enough and only the GPU needs to be more powerful? But then the CPU will be a bottleneck. The ARM CPU's are far from the desktop CPU's performance.


We can go way deeper in the subject about emulation of other architectures but it's not worth the time in this case.
You want to belive that the 360 CPU is binary translated on the xbone CPU? Sure belive that be my guest.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 12:00:15 PM by som99 »
 

Offline som99

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2015, 11:43:53 AM »
Quote from: warpdesign;800215
Why do you think you're getting 33% frame drops depending on games if apps are recompiled ?
Because lack of propper optimazation when compiling for another architecture.
You do not need to search far to find out that many console ports released on PC are badly optimized and eats resourcesn (same case with this).

Quote from: warpdesign;800215
Of course it does... The PPC found inside the 360 is more than 12 years old (if you consider R&D).
Good then we can emulate multicore 3GHz PPC CPU's on sub 100USD x86 CPU's and outperform most NG Amiga PPC's then, no need for PPC chips anymore... (sarcastic)

Quote from: warpdesign;800215
Any modern ARM CPU like Apple 9x is already a lot faster than Xenon's CPU, even though it needs a lot more power and runs without a fan... No wonder modern x86 CPU may emulate it with proper JIT.
On what kind of workload?

Quote from: warpdesign;800215
The CPU is the only thing that can be emulated: everything else can be wrapped to host chips.
I have not looked in the rest of the 360 hardware to know what needs to be emulated and what can be wrapped/virtulized, but the Jaguar is not powerfull enough to emulate the 360's CPU. Just doing some numbercrunching on both CPU's and you will see that it is not possible and it's not like the binary translation is 1:1 ratio.


Quote from: warpdesign;800215
And you surestimate the power needed in most games.
Oh, and not to mention that most GPU packed with current ARM SoC are designed to perform correctly with current ARM, or do you mean most ARM GPUs need a faster CPU than they currently got ?
You said that any CPU is fast enough today for gaming not just ARM. So you are saying the ARM CPU's is fast enough and only the GPU needs to be more powerful? But then the CPU will be a bottleneck. The ARM CPU's are far from the desktop CPU's performance.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2015, 01:02:41 AM »
Matthey, the only thing I see Amiga has that is of any value currently in modern computing, is the user interface, Intuition along with ASL etc. You can easily make a lot of former Amiga users happy just by recreating that on *ix using for example Qt. The so called "most users" apparently shun CLI and scripting anyways.
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Offline matthey

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2015, 05:07:10 PM »
Quote from: kolla;800279
Matthey, the only thing I see Amiga has that is of any value currently in modern computing, is the user interface, Intuition along with ASL etc. You can easily make a lot of former Amiga users happy just by recreating that on *ix using for example Qt. The so called "most users" apparently shun CLI and scripting anyways.


I would not be satisfied with the Amiga over a Unix derived OS. It would just create incompatibility, inefficiency and bring in warts from another old OS (a QNX kernal was less distasteful but I would still rather see organic R&D). The AmigaOS design is efficient and compact even though the C= developers did not achieve its full potential. The problem is that most people want a leading desktop OS where the AmigaOS is not very competitive. The current Amiga ownership keeps trying this path despite falling farther and farther behind (the slow demise of PPC is not helping). I still see value in the AmigaOS and believe there is a market for it under the right leadership. You must see something special about the Amiga or you wouldn't be here ;).
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2015, 08:01:47 PM »
Quote from: warpdesign;800215
...Any modern ARM CPU like Apple 9x is already a lot faster than Xenon's CPU, even though it needs a lot more power and runs without a fan... No wonder modern x86 CPU may emulate it with proper JIT.


First, ARM is just reaching the speeds PPCs were at a decade ago.
Second, the Xenon is a fast but relatively simple in-order processor.

Its just another attempt to compare unrelated cpus.

Whoever pointed out that the gpu was the most important part of this equation hit the nail on the head.

All of these cpus are adequate.
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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2015, 10:33:19 PM »
Quote from: warpdesign;800177
The 68k is dead. You seem to be driven by your nostalgy of the eighties. Gamers want games... they don't care about the CPU/GPU you may be using.
The 68k was way way superior to the x86 chipset. Hell, if the IBM PC designers had it their way, the original PC would have been 68k (though the top of IBM and Intel had a deal). Fact is, the x86 infrastructure is still there to host a lot of legacy software, but on itself it's severely limited. I don't know about x64, how much it is crippled by the x86 legacy, if at all. If not, if x64 is well designed, the 68k discussion is futile.

But, a total redesign of a computer and it's software (and especially the approach to it) with todays knowledge would be totally Amiga :D
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Offline Surreal

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2015, 05:36:13 PM »
I always considered the 3DO to be pretty much the spiritual, if not literal successor.

~