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Author Topic: Successor to the CD32 in the console market  (Read 5316 times)

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Offline matthey

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2015, 08:13:56 AM »
Quote from: zylesea;800006
The RaspberryPi actually started with a huge software library: It runs Linux and its applications. Download sources and compile, just like on other Linux systems, too.


It wasn't that simple. There were "special" versions of Linuxes for the low end and uncommonly used for Linux ARM processor in the Pi 1. Code had to be downloaded and compiled. Executables were nearly non-existent. Depending on perspective, there were many games if a Linux and programming guru or no games for the more common case of kids expecting the ease of a console (the situation changed as sales numbered induced OS support and easy to use OS flavors created communities many times larger than the Amiga elite community). Linux games can be compiled for the Amiga with ixemul so we can say we have the same "huge software library", right?

Quote from: zylesea;800006

I could imagine though a pimped Amiga (AGA+Apollo core) in a joystick (with a few connectors to expand it to a full system) could sell quite a few copies - given the price would kept sane. Similar to C64DTV, but a bit more pimped.


A good portion of the work is already done but the Amiga Elites would rather beat their dead PPC horse.
 

Offline Robbie

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2015, 09:03:45 AM »
I think that if A-eon somehow designed something that was 20 years ahead in terms of capabilities and hardware, then people might notice it. Some kind of completely immersive virtual reality console that was also somehow affordable. (haha)
 

Offline kolla

Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2015, 02:01:05 PM »
Nothing "special" about Linux on RPi, it is the same old, not as if it was the first ARM system around running Linux. I suggest people stop repeating false claims about things they have marginal to no knowledge about.
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Offline matthey

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2015, 05:26:21 PM »
Quote from: kolla;800023
Nothing "special" about Linux on RPi, it is the same old, not as if it was the first ARM system around running Linux. I suggest people stop repeating false claims about things they have marginal to no knowledge about.


Some bloated OS flavors still don't work on the 256MB low end Raspberry Pi 1 instead supporting only the Raspberry Pi 2. There was initially problems with the ARM1176JZF-S CPU target as it was not the most popular and there are so many ARM variations that compiler support is difficult and confusing. Ever wonder why vbcc doesn't support ARM despite being a compiler designed for embedded systems and even supporting the Pi's Videocore IV GPU with OpenCL? There is nothing "special" about ARM support other that supporting all the modes and CPU variations. Maybe you are the Linux and ARM guru we need to add the non-special support?
 

Offline agami

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2015, 03:35:21 PM »
@RPi thread
It doesn't matter, Raspberry Pi was not attempting to enter the games console market. They were entering a DIY market which already had much of the tool chain and community in place.
 
Like others have pointed out, and others like OUYA, and Commodore have learnt: Consoles are appliances and they should Just Work and there should be content for it. An item without use is a useless item.

An Amiga console concept is not a slam dunk. Sure, you could put a RPi style board into a nice looking case, include a wireless controller, brand it Amiga and then what? What games is this relatively inexpensive device going to play?
On the other hand if you covet the existing library of classic games then you will quickly find that you need more than a $30 DIY board as your base. And even if you somehow manage to get it all working with a relatively low hardware cost, how will you market it? As a retro console? Retro consoles have almost no staying power. Nostalgic users buy them, play a few minutes or hours of their favourite titles and then they gather dust.

Ask Team 17 how much money they've made selling Superfrog and Alien Breed on the PS Vita? I was one of the people that bought both. I played Superfrog in one sitting up to the witch and I haven't picked it up again. And I haven't even played Alien Breed yet.

As good a concept as the Amiga in a joystick is, it limits you to only the simple joystick games. What about games that bring up a map when you press M on the keyboard? Or mouse based games like Lemmings?

About the only thing possible would be to work with Cloanto to build an Amiga Player dedicated box based on something like the Intel NUC barebones system. The final product would cost around US$600-$800. Call it the Amiga Playbench. How many of us would buy something like that?
---------------AGA Collection---------------
1) Amiga A4000 040 40MHz, Mediator PCI, Voodoo 3 3000, Creative PCI128, Fast Ethernet, Indivision AGA Mk2 CR, DVD/CD-RW, OS 3.9 BB2
2) Amiga A1200 040 25MHz, Indivision AGA Mk2 CR, IDEfix, PCMCIA WiFi, slim slot load DVD/CD-RW, OS 3.9 BB2
3) Amiga CD32 + SX1, OS 3.1
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2015, 05:15:49 PM »
Quote from: tonyvdb;799983
I think the CD32's replacement is the Wii and now the WiiU I dont think that an Amiga version would sell well at all now.


IMO the CD32 (or Amiga) replacement was:

1. PlayStation
2. GameCube
3. Wii
4. PlayStation 3
5. WiiU as long as PlayStation 4 isn't hacked soon.

OT: The Atari ST replacement was:
1. Saturn
2. Dreamcast
3. Xbox
4. Xbox 360
5. Xbox one
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2015, 06:28:50 PM »
Quote
The Raspberry Pi didn't start with a single game where a low priced Amiga could start with thousands of Amiga retro games.
The Raspberry isn't a game console, people do not buy it to play games (other than retro). And actually it started with one game: Minecraft Pi edition.

Ouya already tried to release a console that was quite cheap and with ok performance but still, it failed.

What your "Amiga" console have that would make millions (btw that's more than what Commodore sold Amigas in its entire lifetime) people buy ?

You have to bring more to the table than retro Amiga games...

- Nintendo have several huge software licences and great designers that make them survive despite technological gap.

- Sony & Microsoft are throwing millions of dollars to buy exclusivities.

What would you do to make players buy your console ? What would you do that Ouya didn't ?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 07:22:46 PM by warpdesign »
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2015, 06:35:33 PM »
Quote from: agami;800091
@RPi thread
It doesn't matter, Raspberry Pi was not attempting to enter the games console market. They were entering a DIY market which already had much of the tool chain and community in place.

They also targeted a low end educational market. The Amiga has a rag tag general community and a tiny elitist community already in place. The Raspberry Pi was subsidized as an Amiga Pi could be with Kickstarter and/or private financing.

Quote from: agami;800091
Like others have pointed out, and others like OUYA, and Commodore have learnt: Consoles are appliances and they should Just Work and there should be content for it. An item without use is a useless item.

General purpose computing should be nearly as easy as using a console.

Quote from: agami;800091
An Amiga console concept is not a slam dunk. Sure, you could put a RPi style board into a nice looking case, include a wireless controller, brand it Amiga and then what? What games is this relatively inexpensive device going to play?
On the other hand if you covet the existing library of classic games then you will quickly find that you need more than a $30 DIY board as your base. And even if you somehow manage to get it all working with a relatively low hardware cost, how will you market it? As a retro console? Retro consoles have almost no staying power. Nostalgic users buy them, play a few minutes or hours of their favourite titles and then they gather dust.

...

As good a concept as the Amiga in a joystick is, it limits you to only the simple joystick games. What about games that bring up a map when you press M on the keyboard? Or mouse based games like Lemmings?

I would make an expandable computer with the base of Amiga software as a selling point (retro Amiga compatibility). I would use USB and bluetooth keyboards and controllers and allow existing console's controllers to work. I would have a couple of SATA ports for HD and CD if wanted. Jay Miner had the right idea when he snuck in an expandable general purpose computer into his Amiga video game system.

Quote from: agami;800091
About the only thing possible would be to work with Cloanto to build an Amiga Player dedicated box based on something like the Intel NUC barebones system. The final product would cost around US$600-$800. Call it the Amiga Playbench. How many of us would buy something like that?

The NUC has the right idea as far as size and expandability. It is just a reduced PC which is not unique and the Intel graphics are uninspiring. The NUC cost is cheap enough it would sell to Amiga users at least (not so well at US$600-$800 though).

Quote from: warpdesign;800096
What would you do make players buy your console ? What would you do that Ouya didn't?

Current consoles are not open in the least. This is annoying. It should be possible to connect a keyboard and mouse and browse the internet for example. They have standard hardware which is nice but it is unaccessible. Of course an Amiga could not compete in performance with the newest consoles but a retro system doesn't have to. I do think the hardware should be good enough to encourage creating new software and allow semi-modern porting of software.

Ouya wasted too much money on creating custom cases and controllers (kickstarter generated $8.5 million for them to spend!). I would use existing ones and maybe a sticker for the case. Ouya is ARM with nothing unique while a 68k Amiga would be unique, cool and retro. I would keep an FPGA at least for the custom chips to simulate an Amiga, CD32, AtariST, NeoGeo, Sega Genesis, X68000, 68k based standup video games, etc. Think Natami or FPGA Arcade on steroids.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2015, 07:10:08 PM by matthey »
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2015, 07:35:07 PM »
Quote
Current consoles are not open in the least. This is annoying.
To you, maybe. It doesn't seem to annoy the hundred of millions that are buying Nintendo, Sony or Microsoft consoles.

Quote
It should be possible to connect a keyboard and mouse and browse the internet for example.
You have a point: browsing the web sucks with current consoles. But plugging a keyboard on my console ? no...

Quote
Of course an Amiga could not compete in performance with the newest consoles but a retro system doesn't have to. I do think the hardware should be good enough to encourage creating new software and allow semi-modern porting of software.
True. And any ARM-based machine would be more than enough.

Quote
Ouya is ARM with nothing unique while a 68k Amiga would be unique, cool and retro.
Sure, it would be unique: so what ? Do you think people bought their PS4 because of the AMD x86 processor inside ?
Do you think a people bought the Wii because of the PowerPC chip inside or in order to play nice games with the wii mote and... have fun ? (Remember when computing was fun ?)

People don't care about the hardware. And the cheaper it is, the better it may sell. Choosing ARM means you may lower the costs a lot on these chips. So you may spend it elswhere.

Quote
I would keep an FPGA at least for the custom chips to simulate an Amiga, CD32, AtariST, NeoGeo, Sega Genesis, X68000, 68k based standup video games, etc. Think Natami or FPGA Arcade on steroids.
Why would you add an expensive FPGA when UAE is more than enough for 99.9% of the games ever released for the Amiga ?

Even the 30$ Pi 2 can emulate it correctly using UAE.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2015, 08:18:26 PM »
Quote from: matthey;799988
The Raspberry Pi is coming up on 6 million units sold. An Amiga would sell if the price was right.

The Raspberry Pi can run AROS already and there is no reason that AmigaOS4 or MorphOS couldn't also be ported. If you want PPC then to carve out market share it would need to be cheaper and faster than the Raspberry Pi, which I don't believe is possible (*). However it would need to be able to run Linux etc as well, because most people aren't interested in "Amiga".

(*) The Raspberry Pi 2 was launched early because another competitor was going for faster at a price premium, so I would expect a Raspberry Pi 3 if it looks like someone gets close to competing (which may already happen with the pine64).
 

Offline BozzerBigD

Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2015, 09:08:34 PM »
warpdesign wrote:
Quote
You have a point: browsing the web sucks with current consoles. But plugging a keyboard on my console ? no...

@Warpdesign
The PS3 was the closest in concept to the CD32 with the ability to run Yellow Dog Linux in the early days and was capable of utilising Bluetooth mice and keyboards. It was a shame that Red Alert 3 didn't support said peripherals! Also the PS3 was expenisive didn't exactly sell brilliantly compared to the simpler game machine centred PS2 :-(
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."

John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2015, 09:09:16 PM »
Quote from: warpdesign;800103

True. And any ARM-based machine would be more than enough.

...

People don't care about the hardware. And the cheaper it is, the better it may sell. Choosing ARM means you may lower the costs a lot on these chips. So you may spend it elsewhere.


ARM is cheap but weak at single core performance. Older games and many new games need good single core performance. Yes, the 68k has the potential to have single core performance as good as the x86 (a design like the Apollo core as an SoC ASIC would probably end up like the early Atom processors in performance which is better than most ARM processors). I believe there is embedded market potential for a higher performance 68k (with some ColdFire compatibility) which could offset the cost if a kickstarter couldn't raise $8.5 million like the Ouya.

Quote from: warpdesign;800103

Why would you add an expensive FPGA when UAE is more than enough for 99.9% of the games ever released for the Amiga ?

Even the 30$ Pi 2 can emulate it correctly using UAE.


A Pi 2 can't emulate 68020+AGA accurately, at least with the one core which UAE is using. Even 68020+ECS is challenging on a single ARM core. An FPGA for the custom chips does not have to be too big and they are affordable in this size. Look at how cheap Majsta's Vampire II accelerator with an FPGA is and he isn't getting large quantity pricing. An FPGA for customization and a low price makes the board more appealing for embedded applications as well as for hobbyists and educational purposes.

Quote from: psxphill;800107
The Raspberry Pi can run AROS already and there is no reason that AmigaOS4 or MorphOS couldn't also be ported. If you want PPC then to carve out market share it would need to be cheaper and faster than the Raspberry Pi, which I don't believe is possible (*). However it would need to be able to run Linux etc as well, because most people aren't interested in "Amiga".


I am talking about the 68k which is a resource miser. Yes, it would be good to standardize and document the hardware so other OSs (or no OS in the case of embedded) could use it.

AROS on the Pi has the potential to be one of the most successful Amiga branches but I doubt it will ever crack the top 5 most used OSs on the Pi. The biggest obstacle is probably lack of binary and hardware compatibility with the Amiga.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2015, 12:55:31 PM »
Quote from: matthey;800036
Some bloated OS flavors still don't work on the 256MB low end Raspberry Pi 1 instead supporting only the Raspberry Pi 2.


What certain distros decide to target is not relevant.

Quote
There was initially problems with the ARM1176JZF-S CPU target as it was not the most popular and there are so many ARM variations that compiler support is difficult and confusing.


That is nothing new, nor is it unique to ARM.

Quote
Ever wonder why vbcc doesn't support ARM despite being a compiler designed for embedded systems and even supporting the Pi's Videocore IV GPU with OpenCL?


Nope, I have never wondered about that.

Quote
There is nothing "special" about ARM support other that supporting all the modes and CPU variations. Maybe you are the Linux and ARM guru we need to add the non-special support?


I currently have somewhere between 14 and 20 ARM systems, all running Linux, typically my own flavour of gentoo. Some of them only have 8 or 16MB of RAM. You want pictures or what?
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kolla

Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2015, 01:06:30 PM »
All iOS devices are ARM. Most Android devices are also ARM. There is Mali. There are far more games running on ARM already than there ever was on 68k. Why is this not obvious for certain people?
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline matthey

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Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2015, 05:54:27 PM »
Quote from: kolla;800142

I currently have somewhere between 14 and 20 ARM systems, all running Linux, typically my own flavour of gentoo. Some of them only have 8 or 16MB of RAM. You want pictures or what?


uClinux can support as low as 1 MB of memory (ColdFire embedded board without an MMU). This Linux embedded variation was created by ex-Amiga users who probably got tired of being blocked by the Amiga Elites and the legal issues. It should have been the AmigaOS. It could be used on even low end Amiga hardware. That doesn't mean it is easy. There are no compiled binaries, bigger programs won't have enough memory, variations in hardware have to be dealt with, etc. Getting it to run on new hardware might not be "special" to you but it would be for most people.

Quote from: kolla;800144
All iOS devices are ARM. Most Android devices are also ARM. There is Mali. There are far more games running on ARM already than there ever was on 68k. Why is this not obvious for certain people?


There are many incompatible ARM hardware variations. Binaries will not work from one ARM hardware device to another. Most of those games have hand held cell phone controls which may not work well for a console. The 68k had Amiga, CD32, AtariST, NeoGeo, Sega Genesis, X68000, 68k based standup video games, etc. with professional retro games that used a standard controller like a console. The binaries and hardware vary for each but at least the CPU ISA is the same.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Successor to the CD32 in the console market
« Reply #29 from previous page: December 12, 2015, 11:08:01 PM »
The m68k ISA is the same because it was an architecture with relatively short lifespan. Or one can easily say Coldfire is the same arch and that m68k hence struggle with same issues. The many incarnations of ARM is a result of evolution and what keeps it relevant. In context of Linux, this variation is not much of a problem, it is something we are used to, something we deal with all the time regardless of architecture. There is no "win32" for Linux, we use sources.

And yeah, I know what goes on with Linux on m68k, been on that boat since 1994. I believe my Minimig has a uCLinux disk image that I built some years ago. Those people you speak of, they all left because of limitations in Amiga OS, both technically and legally. Amiga OS can never replace uCLinux either, sadly.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2015, 11:14:24 PM by kolla »
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS