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Author Topic: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware  (Read 16698 times)

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Offline Niding

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #74 from previous page: February 02, 2016, 09:54:50 PM »
@Thomas

Even if its for free, people will complain its not updated/maintained ;)

So you are right, you cant win!
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 10:08:04 PM by Niding »
 

guest11527

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #75 on: February 02, 2016, 10:10:55 PM »
Quote from: mikej;803353
On a serious note however, I would question the "If you want P96 to be maintained" statement. Actually, for me it works great as is - admittedly using the legacy OS it was designed for.

The idea is really to update "a little bit more than P96 alone". But the components have to work with each other, and that's sometimes a bit delicate.

To give you an idea what I'm talking about: When I worked on layers V45, which was approximately in ~2000 or so, I re-did the whole layer-re-arrangement code to be faster and more RTG-friendly. This works so far, but what I did not notice immediately (but only little later) is that the P96 overlay functions for the Pablo board (video overlay) depend on some internal undocumented layer pointers.

Bad, bad, evil P96! Ok, so I was working with Tobias and Alex anyhow, getting some core-level bugs of P96 fixed, and so I had the chance and fixed this P96 issue as well. Unfortunately, T&A lost interest in the whole P96 affair soon after (guess why!) and so the fixed and modified and V45-layers compliant version of P96 never really made it to the end user.

It's probably not the last issue in P96 that would, in the next (near) future require some minor update here and there. Probably to support some features of new hardware, or probably to support some new features of some Os level components.

Now, of course, folks like Kolla could come and say: "Thomas, just work more in your spare time, update layers, then update P96, then update graphics, and here are a couple of bugs in exec as well...". However, as much as I like playing for the system, I don't have all the time to do that, and at some point, one must come to the conclusion that all the enthusiasm of a hand full of people is not enough to get the job done, and it requires some external motivation. AROS is still not there after all the years - not saying that they are doing a bad job - it's just too small a group and too little motivation. Not their fault, not at all!

Probably it needs a motivation that will someone buy some lunch. Not necessarily *my* lunch, but someone's.

It's really more than P96 all over, and I'm really asking to respect that. I don't want to let AmigaOs classic rot more than it is,  with everyone patching it together - plus making it incredibly hard to set it up correctly and get it running correctly.

That requires fixing, and it requires that someone has to pay for the lunch of somebody else at some point. It doesn't work "all for free" because we're all so nice people and funded by Norwegian Oil or the German state.
 

Offline EvilGuy

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #76 on: February 02, 2016, 10:40:09 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;803356

That requires fixing, and it requires that someone has to pay for the lunch of somebody else at some point.


Or open source it and then the developers who want somebody else to pay for their lunches can go off and do work that pays and the community can then sort out amongst themselves who can fix the mess.

I know - this is the Amiga community we're talking about - if there is a whiff of even a cent laying around then someone is going to try and extract it.
 

Offline Gulliver

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #77 on: February 03, 2016, 12:00:31 AM »
@Thomas Richter

If you are going to mantain it, I hope we (users) get some improvements.

My humble suggestions:

1-The most painfull and user unfriendly program on Amigas is probably Picasso96Mode. Could you please actually redo it, so that it makes sense?
CGX for example, has a very easier counterpart (CGXMode). If you search the web a bit, you will find lots of complaints about this on P96.

2-Add documentation on how to manage multiple gfx cards on P96

3-Implement multi-monitor/multi-display support (extended mode - clone mode)

4-Build a Picasso96 AGA driver which would be very useful (much like a CGXAGA driver counterpart). Even better if you could develop an OCS/ECS one, with of course, a limited feature set.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 12:41:06 AM by Gulliver »
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #78 on: February 03, 2016, 12:21:13 AM »
Quote from: EvilGuy;803359
Or open source it and then the developers who want somebody else to pay for their lunches can go off and do work that pays and the community can then sort out amongst themselves who can fix the mess.

I know - this is the Amiga community we're talking about - if there is a whiff of even a cent laying around then someone is going to try and extract it.

It does not look like that the owner is willing to opensource it

@Thomas

I can only express my personal view (not speaking for anyone else)... if amiga history teaches one thing then that the basic components should be free and open and not controlled or property of individuals who can kill it from one day to another. That is also better if you want to attract devs because you can guarantee longterm life in opposite to something controlled by few. I personal would never be willing to invest in closed components. Just my 2 cents and personal view.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #79 on: February 03, 2016, 12:47:26 AM »
Quote from: OlafS3;803374
It does not look like that the owner is willing to opensource it

@Thomas

I can only express my personal view (not speaking for anyone else)... if amiga history teaches one thing then that the basic components should be free and open and not controlled or property of individuals who can kill it from one day to another. That is also better if you want to attract devs because you can guarantee longterm life in opposite to something controlled by few. I personal would never be willing to invest in closed components. Just my 2 cents and personal view.


So you only support AROS?
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guest11527

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #80 on: February 03, 2016, 09:27:01 AM »
Quote from: EvilGuy;803359
Or open source it and then the developers who want somebody else to pay for their lunches can go off and do work that pays and the community can then sort out amongst themselves who can fix the mess.
At least the costs for the acquisition of P96 need to be covered in some way. P96 does not come for free. Also, Kickstart sources did not come for free either.  
Quote from: EvilGuy;803359
I know - this is the Amiga community we're talking about - if there is a whiff of even a cent laying around then someone is going to try and extract it.

If it would be just so easy. It's all part of a legacy problem. Kickstart/AmigaOs was a commercial product, P96 was a commercial product. Acquisition of these components was not for free, so it's quite natural that whoever bought it would like to get the money back in the end.  

If you look at the Linux community: Lots of developments are sponsored by the larger players: Intel, the Linux distributions (gosh, also paid by users!) like SuSE or RedHat... all of them put money into the pot. Amiga is not quite in such a luxury position.
 

guest11527

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #81 on: February 03, 2016, 09:33:38 AM »
Quote from: Gulliver;803371
@Thomas Richter

If you are going to mantain it, I hope we (users) get some improvements.

It's probably a bit early for a wish list. The first point is to get the deal done. There are many points on my personal wish list as well, but who does it, if it is done and whether I'm even involved in this is just another question.
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #82 on: February 03, 2016, 09:38:39 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;803399
If you look at the Linux community: Lots of developments are sponsored by the larger players: Intel, the Linux distributions (gosh, also paid by users!) like SuSE or RedHat... all of them put money into the pot. Amiga is not quite in such a luxury position.

Amiga developers, on the other hand, seems to do do everything within their power to *not* make money on their stuff.  :p
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline Oldsmobile_Mike

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #83 on: February 03, 2016, 09:42:53 AM »
Quote from: Gulliver;803371
1-The most painfull and user unfriendly program on Amigas is probably Picasso96Mode. Could you please actually redo it, so that it makes sense?

Nah, there's plenty worse programs than Picasso96Mode.  Heck, even I was able to figure it out.  Sort of.  Ha!  ;)

Maybe this will help?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8lLfEuVI2Y

PS - I ramble a lot.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 10:01:48 AM by Oldsmobile_Mike »
Amiga 500: 2MB Chip|16MB Fast|30MHz 68030+68882|3.9|Indivision ECS|GVP A500HD+|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|Cocolino|SCSI DVD-RAM
Amiga 2000: 2MB Chip|136MB Fast|50MHz 68060|3.9|Indivision ECS + GVP Spectrum|Mechware card reader + 8GB CF|AD516|X-Surf 100|RapidRoad|Cocolino|SCSI CD-RW
 Amiga videos and other misc. stuff at https://www.youtube.com/CompTechMike/videos
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #84 on: February 03, 2016, 09:54:29 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;803375
So you only support AROS?

I support open standards and open sources to guarantee availability even in longterm. Neither Hyperion nor MorphOS team is interested in that and 3.X is hold hostage by several companies. Then there is not much left. BTW components like the CybergraphX from Aros could be improved and backported to 3.X then you would have both, the beloved old components and open standards.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #85 on: February 03, 2016, 12:18:52 PM »
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;803402
Amiga developers, on the other hand, seems to do do everything within their power to *not* make money on their stuff.  :p


sounds as if you knew better how to make money here. which i doubt that there is any generally sensible method for. including so called amistores or the like, but that can be confirmed or argued against by actually involved with such alternatives.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #86 on: February 03, 2016, 12:24:14 PM »
Quote
Picasso96Mode


this program is probably almost completely unnecessary as of today. when using flatscreens with their normed frequencies, almost no tolerances, and fixed native resolutions, user defined display modes will likely rather lead to problems then solve any. hard coded standard resolutions is much more sensible approach in this respect.
 

Offline zipper

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #87 on: February 03, 2016, 03:53:21 PM »
Perhaps PicassoModeTNG is easier - btw it's the tool to flash Picasso IV FliFi http://www.sophisticated-development.de/software/P-IV/pmtng-2.9.lha
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #88 on: February 29, 2016, 12:01:44 AM »
looks like wise people do the right things. judging by who is involved, it looks like aros based rtg driver for kick 3.x amiga600/vampire instead of p96 one done within few days since the developer received the hardware.
its not like i want to credit anything on foreseeing this as best option, simplz want to indicate how things can be done with least effort for most advantage of community avoiding the whole barrage of licensing issues.