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Author Topic: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware  (Read 16702 times)

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Offline Cosmos Amiga

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2016, 01:51:43 PM »
Quote from: mikej;803185

I was a little surprised to hear that that licensing discussions were on-going for the Apollo/Vampire project,when I was told just a week or two ago that no contact had been made - and I was discouraged from any attempts to release a product.

In my view, it would be a very sad day for what remains of this community if an attempt was made to exclusively license the P96 system.



You are not the only one...

It's like that on Amiga...

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Offline mikejTopic starter

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2016, 02:32:56 PM »
Given the much higher volumes of the generic platforms, it wouldn't make sense financially either.
 

guest11527

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2016, 03:11:14 PM »
Quote from: mikej;803185
I was a little surprised to hear that that licensing discussions were on-going for the Apollo/Vampire project,when I was told just a week or two ago that no contact had been made - and I was discouraged from any attempts to release a product.

In my view, it would be a very sad day for what remains of this community if an attempt was made to exclusively license the P96 system.

*Sigh* I really don't understand this community. No matter what you do, somebody will get it wrong.

There is no attempt to make an "exclusive" deal with Apollo. There is an attempt to create a situation where you can again license P96, no matter whether you are "Apollo" or "not".  

The point is not that the P96 rights go to Apollo. Neither will they go to me. The only reason why I took Apollo into the boat was because it was the first team that asked, and a team I had contacts with by pure coincidence, and it was already tough enough to build up an atmosphere of thrust with all parties involved at this point. It wouldn't have made it easier to include another party at this point, but even then, I indicated already (two weeks ago) that there is more than one FPGA team that would be interested in this.

So no, nobody is "off the boat" at this point, and there is no conspiracy to be exclusive or keep somebody off from using P96. We're really early in the negotiations, and I haven't forgotten anyone. It is just too complicated already. As soon as there is something to release to the public, it will be released, really.

The idea is really to keep the P96 license model untouched, in the same way Alex and Tobias originally considered it. The user gets P96 for free, but if you're developing a hardware that depends on a P96 driver, you have to license it - yes (gosh!) for money, for a sum that still has to be discussed. The money does not go into my pocket, or into the pockets of Apollo. But somebody has to keep care of the software, and somebody has to pay the party.
 

Offline billt

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2016, 03:54:02 PM »
Thanks Thomas! It would be nice for this to be possible again!
Bill T
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Offline UberFreak

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2016, 04:07:37 PM »
IMO, the better approach would be for all interested teams to band together & negotiate the liberation of P96.
That would be better for everyone, since further development of P96 would finally be possible.
 

Offline strim

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2016, 04:21:23 PM »
Quote from: UberFreak;803192
IMO, the better approach would be for all interested teams to band together & negotiate the liberation of P96.
That would be better for everyone, since further development of P96 would finally be possible.

Some people in the community are just control freaks and prefer to keep 15 years old code in their closets.

The model that was originally used by Tobias possibly could have some sense back in 1995 when Amiga market was much, much bigger and there were actual companies doing new development for classic Amiga. That licensing model is completely unfit for the current market and limits access to P96 only for the biggest players. I considered developing a new RTG card for classics but I am unwilling to participate in this absurdity.

Currently, we are all just hobbyists working on Amiga stuff whenever our time permits.

@Thomas
How about a bounty to open P96 code? If the money is really an issue, this could solve it.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 04:28:42 PM by strim »
 

guest11527

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2016, 04:59:34 PM »
Quote from: UberFreak;803192
IMO, the better approach would be for all interested teams to band together & negotiate the liberation of P96.
That would be better for everyone, since further development of P96 would finally be possible.

Why do you think that further development is *not* possible if the library is not open source? Actually, I would be glad to have more manpower in the team if I would maintain P96, so where's the problem joining the team?
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2016, 05:22:38 PM »
Quote from: strim;803198
Some people in the community are just control freaks and prefer to keep 15 years old code in their closets.

The model that was originally used by Tobias possibly could have some sense back in 1995 when Amiga market was much, much bigger and there were actual companies doing new development for classic Amiga. That licensing model is completely unfit for the current market and limits access to P96 only for the biggest players. I considered developing a new RTG card for classics but I am unwilling to participate in this absurdity.

Currently, we are all just hobbyists working on Amiga stuff whenever our time permits.

@Thomas
How about a bounty to open P96 code? If the money is really an issue, this could solve it.

sigh.. slowly im tired of reminding everybody who wants to liberate p96 or create a driver for it that there is aros cybergraphics, that would very likely be less hassle to port over to genuine amiga system than getting actual p96 sources released. hell, it even has a wrapper that accepts p96 drivers..

i really dont understand why to make things more complicated and even less likely to happen, even though there are already open solutions out there.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2016, 05:24:52 PM by wawrzon »
 

guest11527

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #52 on: January 31, 2016, 05:25:47 PM »
Quote from: strim;803198
Some people in the community are just control freaks and prefer to keep 15 years old code in their closets.
No, that's not the problem. The problem is that in the end somebody must be willing to buy the code, and somebody must be willing to sell the code.

It seems that we are converging to a situation where we have a seller and a buyer, and apparently a buyer who is interested in further development of the code. I would say that this is quite a positive development, even more so as the current seller (Tobias and Alex) have not made any attempt to create a productive environment in the last ten years that would stimulate or even allow its progression. And we have a buyer who expressed a an interest to create exactly that. So it's an improvement, after all.
Quote from: strim;803198
That licensing model is completely unfit for the current market and limits access to P96 only for the biggest players. I considered developing a new RTG card for classics but I am unwilling to participate in this absurdity.
Then don't buy it. Once again, not everything has to be free in this universe, even more so as some party is apparently putting money into it. Its *own* money. It's not morally wrong to buy something for money, you know?

Then again - Do you call me a big player? I don't have any money and I didn't put any money into the pot. I only helped a bit establishing contacts, that's all. Do you call "Apollo" a big player? This is also only a group of hobbyists. Yet, there is a seemingly successful negotiation between the parties which came up with a reasonable price (or so I hope). So if "Apollo" is large enough to handle that, why do you believe that you are "too small" for it either?
Quote from: strim;803198
Currently, we are all just hobbyists working on Amiga stuff whenever our time permits.
Do you believe this is any different for any other player here? I'm a hobbyist, and the people from Apollo are, too. The whole thing just "works" because we came (or will come, hopefully) to the conclusion that the best way of handling the situation is by the exchange of some small green paper sheets. (-:

Quote from: strim;803198
@Thomas
How about a bounty to open P96 code? If the money is really an issue, this could solve it.

You need two parties for such a deal: A seller, and a buyer. Apparently, you're willing to buy the code? The question is whether the current owner is willing to sell it for such a purpose. I don't know whether the acquisition of P96 is already set in stone, but I somehow doubt that there is any seller in the market that would opt into such a deal. That was my impression, at least.

Even more so, what does it buy you having the code Open Sourced? I would hope that there will be a development environment that encourages people to join the team, so you would get access to the code anyhow. Probably even in exchange of some small green paper slips back into your pocket.

I believe if we get such a deal done, much has been gained, namely again an ongoing development of P96. I don't quite see why that is a problem. It's quite an achievement.

I don't know what the future will bring and whether the current owner has the interest in setting up a development community, but I'm very much for inviting as many trustworthy people into the party as I would love to. But it's not my role to decide that. I can only express my opinion openly, and currently, I have the impression that it has been heard.

Apparently, the negotiations so far worked so well because none of the parties were hard-core Open Source fanatics - we tried to find a pragmatic solution and a compromise that would work fine for everyone in the game. Whether Open Source works or not is a matter of the environment, the players, the users, the personal trust between the parties, the situation around the code, its history, its developers... Given the negotiations, it seems that this was not given for P96. In the end, it looks like it will turn out just fine - it was the matter of pulling the right strings at the right time, and it seems to work. Or that is my impression. We will see. It's not on me to make announcements, I only play a minor role in all of this.
 

Offline JimDrew

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #53 on: January 31, 2016, 05:53:19 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;803201
sigh.. slowly im tired of reminding everybody who wants to liberate p96 or create a driver for it that there is aros cybergraphics, that would very likely be less hassle to port over to genuine amiga system than getting actual p96 sources released. hell, it even has a wrapper that accepts p96 drivers..

Where can this be found?
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #54 on: January 31, 2016, 06:10:00 PM »
Quote from: JimDrew;803203
Where can this be fou cannd?

https://trac.aros.org/trac/about

you can download the nightly sources here:
http://aros.sourceforge.net/de/download2.php

id look for files in question in here:
https://trac.aros.org/trac/browser#AROS/trunk/AROS/rom/graphics
perhaps also around here:
https://trac.aros.org/trac/browser/AROS/trunk/AROS/workbench/libs/cgxvideo

to get detailed information its best to join aros dev-ml or ask toni wilen, who delivered amiga hidd. initially its probably best to compile files within aros build system, which is pretty easy and even i can help with it. but there are instructions, how to do it outside i can point to.
 

Offline wawrzon

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #55 on: January 31, 2016, 06:32:28 PM »
im not familiar with aros cgx but i think it can be thought about as reimplementation of graphics library with full color graphics in mind, because it was done for systems equipped with such graphics to start with. amiga chipset graphics frontend has been implemented on top of this (i dont remember the name and am not sure where to look for it in the source right now, i suppose the name was somehow like fake cgx or so). of course this is currently not optimal for planar graphics as most if not all is handled internally in 24bit, but rtg graphics is working fine and fast even on amiga hardware, except some exotic pixel formats, like those 15 and 24 bit of picasso4

some accompanying info i ve just found:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Aros/Platforms/68k_support/Developer/HIDD
 

Offline mikejTopic starter

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #56 on: January 31, 2016, 08:29:31 PM »
Thomas,

Thanks for the response.

"There is no attempt to make an "exclusive" deal with Apollo. There is an attempt to create a situation where you can again license P96, no matter whether you are "Apollo" or "not"."

Sounds great, I'm very relieved to hear.  I'm all for a pragmatic way forward, and certainly believe in working out a solution which works for everybody regarding licensing and onwards development.

/Mike
 

Offline polyp2000

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2016, 05:34:38 PM »
Just out of curiosity, is P96 the only available option to us ? And when SAGA is ready - will we even need P96?

Im guessing the only reason its being considered is to enable backwards compatibility with RTG.

Anyone care to comment?

Nick

Offline Nickman

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Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2016, 06:27:19 PM »
Quote from: polyp2000;803270
Just out of curiosity, is P96 the only available option to us ? And when SAGA is ready - will we even need P96?

Im guessing the only reason its being considered is to enable backwards compatibility with RTG.

Anyone care to comment?

Nick


If you want to use chunky modes in WB then yes you need P96 or CGFX or AROS.
If you are satisfied with 256 color normal AGA resolutions then no you dont need P96 after SAGA is implemented.
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Offline psxphill

Re: P96 RTG driver development for new hardware
« Reply #59 from previous page: February 01, 2016, 07:06:03 PM »
Quote from: polyp2000;803270
Just out of curiosity, is P96 the only available option to us ?

Obviously not, it's just the easiest option as it already exists.

Quote from: polyp2000;803270
And when SAGA is ready - will we even need P96?

You will still need something, however P96 may not be the easiest option at that point as it was designed for add on cards and not for mixed OCS/ECS/AGA/SAGA graphics.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 07:08:19 PM by psxphill »