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Offline trekiej

Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #44 from previous page: June 24, 2015, 09:52:14 PM »
1984 posts.
Amiga Spirit?
Hmmm, I am not for sure what to say.
I believe people follow the money.
What do you think makes Aros better than Widows or Linux?
That is an old question.
Commercialization and popularity are two interesting factors that need to be dealt with.
Driving force is needed to make it move forward.
I know that there are some that are very dedicated.
I am for sure they deserve a lot a credit.
Sorry to all, I do not read all the posts as close as I should.
(No excuse)
Have a great day.
Amiga 2000 Forever :)
Welcome to the Planar System.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2015, 10:27:55 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;791554
I guess I meant traditional computers.

Those all are traditional computers in all respects. HPC, telecommunication, networking, servers, terminals - all levels of computing is dominated by unix derivatives.

Quote
But these days other devices have blurred that line.

No, they are the same type of devices, nothing fundamental has changed.

Quote
I probably browse the internet on my phone more often than on my computer (and yes, its an Android phone).
And Android seems to have a lock on all tablets that aren't made by Apple.
Further, OSX is BSD, sort of anyway, although I'd tend to place it in its own category (as I would iOS).

Why? There is nothing fundamentally different between OSX and any other commercial UNIX, there is nothing fundamentally different between an iPad with iOS and a Zaurus with Qtopia.

Quote
If you start looking for UNIX everywhere you'll soon realize that even Windows has some UNIX legacy.

Oh really - apart from the old TCP/IP stack that has long since been replaced, what would that be? Didn't we all agree 20 years ago that NT is VMS with buttons?

Quote
But does that make it good?

Yes it does.
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---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
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A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2015, 11:51:40 PM »
Quote from: Fats;791565
FYI, I did not drop out; I'm just hibernated ;)

Hey Staf,
If it wasn't for you I never would have heard of Battle Beast, so you've got a pass.
Besides, you really put in some serious time working with others on AROS, so you ought to be allowed a break.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline Iggy

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2015, 12:03:14 AM »
Yes Kolla,
Many, quite rightly, pointed out NT's VMS legacy.
But VMS has, over the years, become quite similar to UNIX.
And I'm not sure that EITHER is a particularly good product.

As to what you think is good...hey opinions...you know...

And to reiterate, I would prefer a smaller, more modular approach, once again based on a micro kernel.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline kolla

Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2015, 01:02:14 AM »
So, enjoy Hurd!
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kolla

Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2015, 01:07:10 AM »
Don't tell me you are a OpenVMS Galaxy operator as well - what on earth do you mean by "VMS has become similar to UNIX"?!
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline kolla

Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2015, 01:18:22 AM »
And UNIX is not as much "a product" as it is a set of standards, APIs and even a philosophy for how operating system components should work. Interoperability is at its center, and sure, anyone can deviatevin any directions they want, as long as they gather up around those standards and APIs that pretty much define UNIX - because it is the best for everyone, being different for the sake of being different has no merit whatsoever.

I have personally experience with Linux on m68k outperforming AmigaOS on basic things like disk and filesystem access, and networking, and on MacMini doing video playback outperforming that of MorphOS, and all I did was optimizing kernels and gcc parameters for the respective hardware, compiling everything myself instead of using generic Debian.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2015, 02:10:40 AM »
Quote from: kolla;791576
Don't tell me you are a OpenVMS Galaxy operator as well - what on earth do you mean by "VMS has become similar to UNIX"?!

Ah, you DO know at least one of my causes of disdain for VMS' creators.
That tendency absorb what they didn't originate.
Come to think of it, that's a LOT like Windows.

But if that reflects badly on VMS, how do you excuse Linux?
Since it is a blatant copy of UNIX.

And damn man, UNIX just isn't that great.

All of this tends to point to one problem, a serious lack of real creativity.

Everyone copying from each other.

There are times when I have a hard time telling modern OS' from the Sun systems some of my supervisors were using 20 years ago.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline kolla

Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2015, 05:20:32 AM »
Yeah well, operating systems are not developed out of creativity, but out of necessity and productivity. Even AmigaOS - very little creative about it.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

guest11527

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2015, 07:06:22 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;791554
If you start looking for UNIX everywhere you'll soon realize that even Windows has some UNIX legacy.
Huh, since when that? Windows had at best some DOS legacy, which was a quick and dirty (by name, DOS was QDOS when MS bought it cheap and sold it expensive to CBM) copy of CP/M, which was remotely inspired by Unix. But that DOS legacy got away with the arrival of Windows NT and Windows 2000. The Millenium edition is the last in line with DOS underneath.
Quote from: Iggy;791554
UNIX was designed when I was growing up, its legacy is about 50 years old.
And it never was that efficient, nor is it anything like real time.
Unix was actually pretty efficient, being itself a pun of Multix, a much heaver and never really come to live operating system. Unix was designed for stability and maintainability, for a system you would not have to reboot every hour. Quite unlike the toy system AmigaOs is.
Quote from: Iggy;791554
I remember Xenix  running on 68K computers and Amigas would run circles around those in terms of performance.
Performance has its price. The design goals of Unix where actually to have an Os for operating a telefone network (namely, AT&T), and not to create  a toy for consumers (AmigaOs). That certainly implies that the Os has to have a couple of more features, and different features, that cost performance.
Quote from: Iggy;791554
To be pointed, I'm tired of all this monolithic buggy crap I'm being encouraged to use.
That's part of the kernel design. Actually, it is not that bad these days anymore given that you have kernel modules, but what tires me the most is the absence of any stable interface between kernel modules and the core kernel code in Linux - this interface changes on a daily basis, essentially disallowing vendors to program against a stable API. Either, you as a vendor have to continuously clean up behind the kernel hackers and adapt to the latest API changes, or you have to release your source code and have to have somebody else do the dirty work for you.

One way or another, it is an approach that does not scale very well. It only works because a lot of people put a lot of time into keeping the kernel running.

What also bothers me is a lot of API junk to support removable media. Currently, it is a hard to overview stack of layers from udev, dbus up to the desktop to support the trivial, namely to allow me to insert a CD any time and have it appear on the desktop. This stack is just there because *ix does not have, by design, a good interface for remote devices, simply because the original design did not need it. After all, you don't insert disks into your telefone server every five minutes, but rather want to have that under control of an operator.

Raw speed, however, does not really bother me a lot these times. Processors are fast enough, and I appreciate the additional stability due to additional checking and protection mechanisms in the Os.
Quote from: Iggy;791554
Even my Samsung phone periodically wigs out and has to be restarted.
And Windows and OSX, while not nearly as problematic as in the past, also still occasionally crash.  
But how is that related to the kernel design? It actually is a matter of implementation quality, and AmigaOs is not exactly a shining example here either.  
Quote from: Iggy;791554
As to the 1%, as a member of the definitely sub 1% (as are all Amigans), I actually feel pretty comfortable in the belief that things could be SO much better.

What "better" is depends on your needs and goals. Yes, there might be probably better Os designs than Linux, which is certainly a lot better than the design of AmigaOs (which has, admittedly, here and there some good ideas hidden under a pile of bad ideas). But whatever you design, the market chance of any "just another Os" are so minimal that I don't even bother. As said, if you want to waste your time, go ahead and be my guest. But I'm not placing a bet on such a project ever producing anything usable.
 

Offline KimmoK

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2015, 07:44:12 AM »
Elsewhere I posted about modern (64bit+more) Amiga(like)OS:

>If updating is too hard task to do (as it seems to be, taking lifetimes)...
>Take the loved features and add new ones, compile...

I personally vote for totally new os branch where 3.1API or legacy compatibility is not the key feature. I can always reboot to legacy compatible AOS4 or MorphOS or use 68k via some runinUAE or JanusUAE kind of solution.

I want OS that behaves like AOS (with executive task scheduler), but can address more than 4Gb RAM, use multiple CPU cores and utilize memory protection.

What should be the starting point?
1) OPEN, to gain community support
2) NG API?
3) ?

What should be the priority-HIGH features...
-future proof design
-?

Priority-MED:
-Must it compile to 32bit CPU? IMO: no.
-Must it compile to several 64bit CPU ISA: yes
...

Priority-LOW:
-wrappers and tools to help recompiling PPC and 68k legacy sources
-legacy compatibility sandboxes (perhaps UAE like heavy one and some light version targetting recompiled non-memoryprotected legacy)
-posix/linux sandbox
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 07:56:19 AM by KimmoK »
- KimmoK
// Windows will never catch us now.
// The multicolor AmigaFUTURE IS NOW !! :crazy:
 

guest11527

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2015, 07:48:28 AM »
Quote from: KimmoK;791584
I personally vote for totally new os branch where 3.1API or legacy compatibility is not the key feature. I can always reboot to legacy compatible AOS4 or MorphOS or use 68k via some runinUAE or JanusUAE kind of solution.

I then wonder why (or if?) that has to be 68K. I mean, take a PC (which is much more modern) and try to implement something there. In how far is this then related to Amiga?
 

Offline KimmoK

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2015, 08:34:42 AM »
@Thomas Richter
>I then wonder why (or if?) that has to be 68K.

I thought the topic was about Amiga(like)OS in general.

IMO it's futile to "Reinvent the OS" for 68k.

>In how far is this then related to Amiga?

I have experienced 32bit 68k to it's limits.

I would like to see and use next generation Amiga(like)OS as current offerings either A) are not amigalike or  B) they are limited to 31bit+shared memory+one core.
- KimmoK
// Windows will never catch us now.
// The multicolor AmigaFUTURE IS NOW !! :crazy:
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2015, 01:19:16 PM »
@ Thomas

I appreciate the history lesson, but I lived through that period, so I've already got plenty of memories of it.
I don't really think that NT derived OS' have a true DOS legacy, they are actually pretty bad at running DOS applications. Not that that is a bad thing. I had to work with early PCs and frankly DOS was dreadful.
One time, I remember typing in a long string of commands that should have worked, only to find that DOS (unlike any decent OS) couldn't handle complex command lines.
Come to think of it, I'm that impressed with NT use of flat data bases/registries. DLLs are a total pain in the ass.

And you're right, the Amiga kernel leaves much to be desired (as does large parts of the OS), which is why I'm using MorphOS (not Amiga OS4).
Which could bring me back to raving about micro kernels...but even I'm bored with that.

Actually, I'm not THAT negative about UNIX/BSD/Linux. Compared to the alternatives, there are clear advantages.

Its just that I CAN see where a smaller, more tightly constructed, modular OS would have its advantages.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

guest11527

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2015, 06:24:40 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;791595
One time, I remember typing in a long string of commands that should have worked, only to find that DOS (unlike any decent OS) couldn't handle complex command lines.
The syntax of the DOS command line is totally screwed. Even more screwed than the Amiga shell (which is also weird). M$ would probably argue that you should use Powershell (has a sane syntax, but simple things can be surprisingly complicated).  
Quote from: Iggy;791595
DLLs are a total pain in the ass.
As Amiga libraries. Or Linux .so files. Same problem, they create dependencies between software packages that are hard to resolve. On Linux, you have a packet manager. On AmigaOs, you can at least move the libraries into local places, but you really have to clean up your LIBS: directory.  There are a couple of new ideas like "Docker" where all libs plus the program is isolated in a container. Somehow, it makes libraries absurd (couldn't the author have linked the binary statically, avoiding the dependency in first place?), so this is a bit strange.
 

Offline trekiej

Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2015, 10:39:22 PM »
The Amiga needs to be put back into the Professional Arena.
Amiga 2000 Forever :)
Welcome to the Planar System.