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Offline trekiej

Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #59 from previous page: June 25, 2015, 10:39:22 PM »
The Amiga needs to be put back into the Professional Arena.
Amiga 2000 Forever :)
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Offline matthey

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2015, 11:51:03 PM »
Quote from: KimmoK;791586
I have experienced 32bit 68k to it's limits.

No. You can only have experienced 32bit 68k to 1994 limits and probably not that. Did you experienced x86 32bit limits with a Pentium 1? I think not. The 32bit 68k could use extended memory (like XMS for x86) giving several GB of memory per task, it could have partial memory protection and isolation, it could have multiple cores and threads, it could have much larger caches, it could have an SIMD, it could have a more efficient CPU design and it could have a more efficient ISA and ABI. Good Amiga compatibility is possible (although most new features would require AmigaOS changes) where 64bit pointers of a little endian 64bit processor would give none except UAE. Even x86_64 isn't a particularly good 64bit CISC ISA. I could create a better 64bit 68k like OpenCISC ISA to go with a reinvented Amiga like OS if you want to discard all the baggage (and compatibility) but would it not be a waste of time? There are more risks than money for investment to challenge the oligopolies.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 11:54:25 PM by matthey »
 

Offline KimmoK

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2015, 08:52:01 AM »
@matthey

Yes, I meant the limits of what 68060 offered.

Possible 68k-NG can be better, yes.

(by using busboard/backplane -kind of design to hold GPU+CPU etc, the 68k-NG can be inserted instead of motorolla68k / PPC when/if available one day)
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Offline KimmoK

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #62 on: June 26, 2015, 08:54:53 AM »
Quote from: trekiej;791615
The Amiga needs to be put back into the Professional Arena.


That would be very very nice thing.

Some Building blocks:
1) robust HW in production
2) robust, capable OS
3) mainstream level developer tools

1 is easy, 2 and 3 not so.
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// Windows will never catch us now.
// The multicolor AmigaFUTURE IS NOW !! :crazy:
 

guest11527

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2015, 10:37:03 AM »
Quote from: KimmoK;791636
1 is easy, 2 and 3 not so.

No, not at all. You seem to look at this problem from a perspective as a software engineer, but that's not quite appropriate. Building stable hardware requires stable financing, allowing vendors to verify their products sufficiently.  

Remember the first PPC chipsets from Motorola? Pretty bugged stuff. It's not that you can buy M68K or PPC hardware next door. It's not exactly mass-produced.
 

Offline KimmoK

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2015, 11:35:21 AM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;791646
No, not at all. You seem to look at this problem from a perspective as a software engineer, but that's not quite appropriate. Building stable hardware requires stable financing, allowing vendors to verify their products sufficiently.  

Remember the first PPC chipsets from Motorola? Pretty bugged stuff. It's not that you can buy M68K or PPC hardware next door. It's not exactly mass-produced.

Well, I'm pretty sure, with today SoC chips, the HW challenge is anyway easier than the SW.
(for example for a ARM, PPC or x86 product)

About three years ago I saw HW (like the beaglebone) being used professionally by "multibilliondollar" company.

+++
thinking about new slogan .... if a design is not readable in 120x120 pixel avatar area, the design is too complex?
No, actually it just means I have to use DPaint instead.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 02:29:01 PM by KimmoK »
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Offline Iggy

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2015, 05:28:14 PM »
Nice to see you guys still knocking this one back and forth.

I like Kimmok's ideas.
Extending the 68K's addressing capability to 64 bits could get tricky, but legacy compatibility IS slowing us down.
I'd also really like to know what the max speed of a 68K core would be with a better grade FPGA or dedicated silicon.
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Offline trekiej

Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2015, 06:43:12 PM »
Iggy did you get my pm?
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Offline Fats

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2015, 12:15:51 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;791583
... but what tires me the most is the absence of any stable interface between kernel modules and the core kernel code in Linux - this interface changes on a daily basis, essentially disallowing vendors to program against a stable API. Either, you as a vendor have to continuously clean up behind the kernel hackers and adapt to the latest API changes, or you have to release your source code and have to have somebody else do the dirty work for you.

One way or another, it is an approach that does not scale very well. It only works because a lot of people put a lot of time into keeping the kernel running.


It is only a problem as you say if you don't want to release the source code of your driver so most of the kernel devs see that as a feature and not a problem.
Once you have done the job of getting your code in the kernel it will be maintained. In the meantime you likely also have improved the quality of your code considerably.
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guest11527

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2015, 12:51:00 PM »
Quote from: Fats;791751
It is only a problem as you say if you don't want to release the source code of your driver so most of the kernel devs see that as a feature and not a problem.
You forget one thing. Even if I release the source code, it means that the source requires continuous updating and maintaining to keep it working with the kernel. Now, which company wants to make this commitment, namely not only release source, but also employ engineers to continuously update the source whenever the kernel interface changes - i.e. with every release.  
Quote from: Fats;791751
Once you have done the job of getting your code in the kernel it will be maintained.  
Using the passive here means that you don't know who maintains it. It is like throwing source code over a wall and hoping somebody picks it up, and that this "somebody" has enough knowledge and experience to do a good job. That is a problem for professional software engineering.  

If you are lucky, you do not need further commitment. If you are not so lucky, your driver will stop working with the next kernel release and your investment is lost.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2015, 01:03:14 PM »
Quote from: trekiej;791672
Iggy did you get my pm?


Sorry for the delay. I just noticed that.

Oh, and these last few posts only reinforce my  opinion that some things should not be in the kernel.
And Thomas is 100% correct, the interface should be stable and completely documented for programmers.
If the core is changed regularly, what does it point to other than it had issues or simply wasn't what it could be.

Carve it down to its minimum, and move anything unnecessary to loadable modules.
It would have lots advantages, but Torvalds doesn't understand this.
And THAT makes me distrust his skill as a software engineer.

Copying an OS is easier than creating one.
Even with all the constant change, I don't see that much improvement in Linux.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 01:19:40 PM by Iggy »
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Offline kolla

Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2015, 04:22:27 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Richter;791754
You forget one thing. Even if I release the source code, it means that the source requires continuous updating and maintaining to keep it working with the kernel. Now, which company wants to make this commitment, namely not only release source, but also employ engineers to continuously update the source whenever the kernel interface changes - i.e. with every release.


I can think of quite a few, most notably perhaps is Microsoft. But really, you are totally overstating this "problem", changes between releases are typically small, big changes in sub systems are announced and discussed to death long before they are actually implemented in a release.

Quote

Using the passive here means that you don't know who maintains it. It is like throwing source code over a wall and hoping somebody picks it up, and that this "somebody" has enough knowledge and experience to do a good job. That is a problem for professional software engineering.  

If you are lucky, you do not need further commitment. If you are not so lucky, your driver will stop working with the next kernel release and your investment is lost.


So your company wants to have drivers in the kernel, but you are too cheap and/lazy to actually maintain them? Well too bad, maybe you should find a different solution than a custom kernel driver, there are plenty of generic drivers and interfaces to use instead. That unmaintained code stops working is a good thing, good riddance.
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Offline kolla

Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2015, 04:31:52 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;791755
Sorry for the delay. I just noticed that.

Oh, and these last few posts only reinforce my  opinion that some things should not be in the kernel.
And Thomas is 100% correct, the interface should be stable and completely documented for programmers.
If the core is changed regularly, what does it point to other than it had issues or simply wasn't what it could be.

Carve it down to its minimum, and move anything unnecessary to loadable modules.
It would have lots advantages, but Torvalds doesn't understand this.
And THAT makes me distrust his skill as a software engineer.

Copying an OS is easier than creating one.
Even with all the constant change, I don't see that much improvement in Linux.

Linux, for some strange reason, runs on just about anything, despite these so called flaws that you point out, flaws that btw you pretty much have made up in your fantasies.

Unless you show the world a better way yourself, you are in no position to question the software engineering skills of Torvalds, whos software projects reach world wide, affecting almost everyone's lives at these point.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 04:40:41 PM by kolla »
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Offline eliyahu

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2015, 04:39:22 PM »
@thread

personal insults against fellow members will not be tolerated. they are a violation of our posting guidelines and only serve to demonstrate the immaturity of the person making them. if you have an argument to make, then use reason and logic, not ad hominem attacks. anyone who disregards this warning will be given a brief vacation from the site. please, this thread has come along nicely so far -- let's keep it that way. :)

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Offline kolla

Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2015, 04:57:48 PM »
So pointing out that someone is talking nonsense and displaying ignorance is considered personal attack? Just... wow!
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guest11527

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Re: Reinvent the OS cont
« Reply #74 on: June 28, 2015, 05:39:56 PM »
Quote from: kolla;791761
I can think of quite a few, most notably perhaps is Microsoft. But really, you are totally overstating this "problem", changes between releases are typically small, big changes in sub systems are announced and discussed to death long before they are actually implemented in a release.
Probably you have never been in the position of maintaining a large scale system. I'm not talking about hobbyists system here. You cannot simply take "off the shelve" hardware for Linux and hope that just because it runs now it will continue to run with the next kernel.

Examples? Last week, kernel update, but vmware does no longer work. Some obscure call in the network layer of linux takes now one argument instead of two, where the second argument was always zero. The cost to include a backwards compatible call that ignores the second argument (which is in this particular case the right approach) would have been close to zero. The cost of patching vmware is (for us) larger because it includes downtime and man hours of work.

Another example? Apparently, some kernel call the NVIDIA driver needs is no longer in place, so if you update your kernel, graphics no longer works, and re-compiling the nvidia driver fails. There is a new driver, but this has other bugs that were not fixed. This is "annoying" for a personal user because the procedure of updating such drivers is more complex than on other systems, but it causes real costs on large scale systems.
Quote from: kolla;791761
So your company wants to have drivers in the kernel, but you are too cheap and/lazy to actually maintain them?
I don't have a company, but I'm working in a computing center. Even if I had a company, I would rather prefer to sell products that continue to work for ten years with drivers unchanged and have the operating system maintainer to keep care of it rather than to continuously have to invest money in a product that no longer creates any profit because it is no longer sold. Somehow the engineers that do all the patching and cleanup behind the kernel hackers have to be paid, too. You seem to forget that.

I'm not a fan of Windows and I don't use it privately, but for today, I can get a driver from Windows Vista (probably ten years old) and install it under Windows 8.1 and it works. You can think of this as you like, but if you ask me, then that shows at least that MS cares about their products and keeps the interface stable. It creates an ecosystem which makes it worth for hardware vendors to invest into it by selling products once and keep consmers happy. Of course MS make their customers pay for this, but one way or another, nothing is for free.

For Linux, you pay for service time because you need somebody to clean up behind the kernel hackers causing consistently interface changes. For Windows, you pay for the product. For an enterprise, it is often simpler and easier just to pay for the product and get the warranty that it continues to run. For Linux, this model also exists in the form of support contracts (e.g. by SuSe, the one we have) but my overall impression is that even with that you have to invest more time if you upgrade SuSe to the next release because there are so many dependencies between the installations that you cannot simply carry your software over. Basically, you have to replace the entire software layer with a new release.

Open source and closed source are just two different models. You have to pay for either, one way or another. Closed source is often easier for the user, and not necessarily more expensive, depending on how you value your time. If I, in my spare time, run my linux system, that's all fine for me. But if I had to write invoices to my boss for that, then that would be a quite expensive system.  
Quote from: kolla;791761
That unmaintained code stops working is a good thing, good riddance.

Actually, no. It rather means that the Os "vendor" does not have the goal of creating a commercial ecosystem that would allow hardware vendors to invest into. Which is pretty much the problem why open source never reached mainstream. Unixoid systems are successful where its vendor keeps care about it itself and uses a much stricter development model, and where hardware and Os are much more coupled than in the PC market. For example, see Android. That's "Linux with a Windows business model". Because Os vendor and hardware vendor are identical or much more dependent on each other, no problem.