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Author Topic: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500  (Read 38784 times)

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Offline ferrellsl

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #299 from previous page: April 02, 2015, 10:43:50 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;787287
you could inform yourself to whom are you talking to and adjust your tone. and now good luck to continue to do your best to drive people who put work on this project apart.

So I'm just supposed to magically make the connection that two different names on two different forums are the same person?  That's as ridiculous as  demanding MacOS compatibility or the outright rejection of Gunnar's project because of new CPU instructions.

If people working on Gunnar's project are so unprofessional as to quit like cry-babies because of MY posts, then Gunnar and the rest of us really are better off without them!

Even Gunnar finds Thor/Thomas' comments and logic puzzling....not to mention that he's making an open spectacle of himself because of his resistance to additional CPU instructions.  This situation is no different than using AltiVec extensions on a PPC CPU.  If you don't want to use AltiVec, then don't use it.  Same goes for SSE instructions on Intel/AMD.  But I don't know of ANY programmers who set out to cripple their code.......
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 10:54:44 PM by ferrellsl »
 

Offline kolla

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #300 on: April 02, 2015, 10:45:17 PM »
Quote from: xboxOwn;787297
Oh God I hope not!! That is not my intention honestly. I will be quite to avoid unintentional trolling


Allright :) I was very tempted to to answer you that you sadly have to wait for Gunnar's promised 64bit addressing mode, which btw is something he may do on a whim any day now, so that you can even have 4GB and beyond. But that would have been trollish of me :)
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Offline kolla

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #301 on: April 02, 2015, 10:49:23 PM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;787302
If people working on Gunnar's project are so unprofessional as to quit like cry-babies because of MY posts, then Gunnar and the rest of us really are better off without them!


Have you printed out his avatar photo and framed it above your bed already? :)
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Offline kolla

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #302 on: April 02, 2015, 10:53:39 PM »
Matthey: I would contact Linux/m68k developers, gcc/glibc developers and NetBSD developers and ask if they would be interested in participating.
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Offline OlafS3

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #303 on: April 02, 2015, 11:02:10 PM »
Quote from: kolla;787268
My problem is obviously getting simple answers to simple questions - you are sn AROS/m68k user and distro maintainer - and you are eagerly involved in Apollo/Phoenix - there are plenty of people with Vampire600 and other boards that run Phoenix, you communicate with Gunnar and the Apollo team on their forum, people who should have no problem whatsoever to try out AROS on their hardware - have you ever seen AROS run on the Phoenix core? The answer is either "yes" or "no".


No not yet

And now?

What will you create by this?
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #304 on: April 02, 2015, 11:06:23 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;787263
@ferellsl

so you want to scare one of the main contributors like thor away from the project? are you going to take his place and develop support libraries? and if not, why dont you just hold your mouth or go using os4 or something like that, instead of alienating people here?


Certain people are doing their political agenda here

It is Gunnars time invested in the project not Kollas or any other

I see no reason to mistrust Gunnar there and the nice thing about FPGA is you can change it. So I do not understand what this discussion is about. Matt and Kolla can do a new FPGA core themselves if they think they are better. Simply as that.
 

Offline Jose

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Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #305 on: April 02, 2015, 11:11:11 PM »
I don't see what the problem is. Don't we already have different executables for different CPUS ?
Didn't read the whole thread so sorry if this was said already...
\\"We made Amiga, they {bleep}ed it up\\"
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #306 on: April 02, 2015, 11:18:43 PM »
Quote from: matthey;787298
Mike, do you see a need for and would you support a standard's committee? I speak of not just 68k enhancements but also custom chipset enhancements. We recently had a discussion on EAB about custom chipset implementations and enhancements.

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=77679

Without standards, we are going to end up with many different incompatible enhancements. One standard will gain more and better support from developers. Look at the support of CGFX and AHI which shows how important a standard can be, especially in a small market like the Amiga. Some people have said standards aren't important because the Amiga is on the brink of dying but we have to plan like it will live. New hardware with hardware standards may be what revives it. I tried to document a standard 68k CPU ISA starting back in 2012 but the Amiga was too dead then for most people to worry about. Gunnar would say it is all my fault for rocking the boat of his Apollo ISA standard but I believe his standard is too radical for other 68k FPGA processors to follow. We need more conservative standards which most FPGA hardware and UAE could adopt when there is developer support and software. Custom enhancements could be built on top of the standards. We can't have one person dictating the standards and half a standard is no standard at all. I don't think a standards committee is going to happen without representives from FPGA Arcade and Mist. I would like to hear from compiler developers if possible including Frank Wille and/or Volker Barthelmann (are there any other active Amiga compiler devs?). A-Eon may be interested. A standard's committee would benefit Gunnar as well. Any arguments could be voted on. Anyone should be able to submit ideas and listen in to discussions. I would probably be considered too biased to be chairman which is fine. We can elect someone. I'm not sure what platform would be best. Does anyone like the idea or have any suggestions for improvements?


The standard is the existing hardware (processor+chipset) and the rest is done by the OS (perhaps with special optimized libraries)
 

Offline kolla

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #307 on: April 02, 2015, 11:37:47 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;787306
No not yet

And now?

What will you create by this?


Allright, thank you for answering. I was just curious and I'm adding this to the pool of information about this project. I find it interesting that noone has bothered to test out AROS/m68k on Vampire600 yet.
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Offline OlafS3

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #308 on: April 02, 2015, 11:46:08 PM »
Quote from: kolla;787311
Allright, thank you for answering. I was just curious and I'm adding this to the pool of information about this project. I find it interesting that noone has bothered to test out AROS/m68k on Vampire600 yet.


*sigh*

then have nice dreams
 

Offline kolla

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #309 on: April 02, 2015, 11:51:47 PM »
Quote from: Jose;787308
I don't see what the problem is. Don't we already have different executables for different CPUS ?


Yes we do, and none of them will be optimized for Phoenix in any shape or form. There is tons of software optimized for 020+FPU and they will not work. There's also plenty of software optimized for 040 and 060 that also will not work. Unless you have the sources and the know-how to optmize for Phoenix using assembler, you are out of luck regarding the speed "advertized".
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Offline wawrzonTopic starter

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #310 on: April 02, 2015, 11:59:41 PM »
Quote from: kolla;787311
I find it interesting that noone has bothered to test out AROS/m68k on Vampire600 yet.
they did before the core gained 020 extensions. which didnt run, and therefore led to discovery that aros68k, even though compiled for plain 68000 target, had an asm inline containing an 020 instruction by oversight. toni found and fixed it. i think this is already some positive outcome of collaboration on the aros68k/apollo front.

i dont know though why they didnt come any further with it, or if they did, why the did not communicate it.
 

Offline Blizz1220

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Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #311 on: April 03, 2015, 12:04:44 AM »
Quote from: biggun;787193
To Thomas,


Lets look at some numbers
Phoenix today can reach over 300 Mips - this means Phoenix is like 20-30 times faster than todays ACA cards.
We see on the horizon the next gen FPGAs.
This means we can have a future roadmap where we know we can create cards with over 1000 Mips.

The performance difference between Phoenix and old 68030 cards is so ridicolous
that I think the wish to run future killer applications on both platforms is pointless.

Nice news ... If you , Majsta Thor and any others contributing can make a card that would be just 020 combatible (fpu or no fpu) and beat 060/100 Mhz by a margin of even 50 % AND add any kind of RTG to it as well (800x600x24bit would be GREAT) you would have best product on the retro market.Shapeshifter can run on 020 without FPU and with RTG it flies and playing around with old Macs I'm pretty sure System 7.5.3 (which is freely available from apple now) would work (It was already PPC there but 68k compatible as well) and most things could be made to work.

Was little sceptic about this but seeing A600 running ADoom in 24+ FPS full screen in ECS HAM mode (!) and verifying that from more than 3 people seems to be proof enough for me.

Don't overestimate end-user wishes :)
 

Offline matthey

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Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #312 on: April 03, 2015, 12:12:41 AM »
Quote from: mikej;787299

I totally agree that without some form of standardisation the community will fracture.


I think the majority of us should be able to see this after what has happened on the Amiga and in this thread.

Quote from: mikej;787299

From a CPU perspective, I see absolutely no point adding or changing any instructions - I'm focussing on functional and timing accuracy for the 68000, then performance for the 68020+.

Personally, if you are going to mess around with the architecture sufficiently to force a compiler modification, you might as well recompile to something else entirely. ARM or MIPs spring to mind.


There is probably a minimal benefit for a 68k CPU enhancement for the FPGA Arcade or any other hardware focused on emulation accuracy right now. There are customers who want higher performance CPU cores and will want to run software compiled for higher performance cores like Apollo/Phoenix though. You can offer a retro compatible core without enhancements and a high performance core with enhancements provided the standard was not too difficult. ColdFire compatibility should be appealing for Atari Firebee users, program sizes could be reduced by 5%-15% to better fit the limited storage space and some FPGA Arcades may even sell for embedded purposes (the Raspberry Pi has sold many units for embedded purposes although it is cheaper and smaller). MIPS programs would be approaching twice the size of 68k+CF programs and they need that much more caches too. Thumb 2 is competive in code density with the 68k but a 68k+CF would be better and can have better single core and memory performance. Most of the CPU evaluation and testing would happen on more performance oriented hardware. Custom chipset enhancements are obviously higher priority.

Quote from: mikej;787299

For the chipset I have already made a few obvious improvements, such as extending all the DMA address register widths. There is not particularly controversial as there is space to do this in the memory map.

I don't expect software to use it, but if this sort of enhancement could be documented and agreed on, it becomes a possibility.


Documenting and making public the changes would be a good start. The custom chips are not my strong point but I would think RTG/chunky custom chip enhancements and maybe some improvement in the audio department would be wanted by most FPGA projects.

Quote from: kolla;787305
Matthey: I would contact Linux/m68k developers, gcc/glibc developers and NetBSD developers and ask if they would be interested in participating.


There are developers assigned to the 68k GCC backend but what they do is usually minimal maintenance. It wouldn't hurt to try inviting them to participate. As far as BSD/Linux 68k developers, there aren't very many active 68k developers and most need an MMU (ThoR and Frank Wille could give some insight if they were interested).

Quote from: OlafS3;787309
The standard is the existing hardware (processor+chipset) and the rest is done by the OS (perhaps with special optimized libraries)


Is 68020+AGA enough for everyone? These are well defined and it's not a bad standard but is that enough forever? If we want more, then we should create new standards.
 

Offline xboxOwn

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Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #313 on: April 03, 2015, 12:23:07 AM »
Quote from: kolla;787303
Allright :) I was very tempted to to answer you that you sadly have to wait for Gunnar's promised 64bit addressing mode, which btw is something he may do on a whim any day now, so that you can even have 4GB and beyond. But that would have been trollish of me :)

I was not aware of that fact. Thanks for the great news regardless :)
 

Offline kolla

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #314 on: April 03, 2015, 12:31:08 AM »
Quote from: xboxOwn;787317
I was not aware of that fact. Thanks for the great news regardless :)


I hope you are as tongue-in-cheek as I am now :)
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