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Offline ferrellsl

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #284 from previous page: April 02, 2015, 08:58:54 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;787281
thor and thomas richter are one and the same person. clear now?



Wow, so I'm supposed to magically know that?  I really don't care if I scare Thomas or Thor or whatever he calls himself, away from this project.  With help like his, Gunnar and his project don't need any enemies!  Thomas/Thor has been the most vocal detractor of this project via this thread.  Scaring him away might be doing everyone a favor!
 

Offline biggun

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Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #285 on: April 02, 2015, 09:13:33 PM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;787284
Wow, so I'm supposed to magically know that?  I really don't care if I scare Thomas or Thor or whatever he calls himself, away from this project.  With help like his, Gunnar and his project don't need any enemies!  Thomas/Thor has been the most vocal detractor of this project via this thread.  Scaring him away might be doing everyone a favor!

Yes Thomas has been helpful is the past.

But I have to admit that I find this open ranting quite surprising.
If a friend is concerned about some details
 then I would have expected some email or phone call to talk about it
 not getting such a call but getting started the discussion with public critised is a bit funny.

A lot of misunformation was posted here.
People like Kolla seem totally confused now.

Frankly I can absolutely not follow Thomas logic.
On the one hand side he is afraid that new instructions would kill split the community
and that this would kill AMIGA - on the other hand Thomas did ask for special instruciton to decode JPEG faster.
I really do not get why the one is *evil* but the other one would be a god sent.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 09:17:41 PM by biggun »
 

guest11527

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Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #286 on: April 02, 2015, 09:14:10 PM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;787284
Wow, so I'm supposed to magically know that?  
Guess by reading my readmes?  
Quote from: ferrellsl;787284
I really don't care if I scare Thomas or Thor or whatever he calls himself,
Actually, I always called myself Thomas Richter. The name of the software product is "THOR Software". Or actually, do you believe "General Motors" is outsourced from the army? (-:  
Quote from: ferrellsl;787284
away from this project.  With help like his, Gunnar and his project don't need any enemies!  Thomas/Thor has been the most vocal detractor of this project via this thread.  Scaring him away might be doing everyone a favor!

You don't understand, right? If we all jump and dance "happy happy joy joy", there would be no way forward. If something is not right, I raise my voice. But that does not mean that the project is bad - it is not. It is probably the most useful project I have seen in years. If you believe that is "detracting", you probably do not understand how our world moves forward. By discussion and finding the right way by compromizes. This is not my project, and I'm not forcing people on my way - how could I.

Actually, if you really believe I am against this project, why do you think did I write the support library for the current (small) Phoenix core we have? Is that destructive? It is probably not the most importanat task, but may I ask you about your support for the project?
 

Offline wawrzonTopic starter

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #287 on: April 02, 2015, 09:21:52 PM »
Quote from: ferrellsl;787284
Wow, so I'm supposed to magically know that?  I really don't care if I scare Thomas or Thor or whatever he calls himself, away from this project.  With help like his, Gunnar and his project don't need any enemies!  Thomas/Thor has been the most vocal detractor of this project via this thread.  Scaring him away might be doing everyone a favor!


you could inform yourself to whom are you talking to and adjust your tone. and now good luck to continue to do your best to drive people who put work on this project apart.
 

Offline wawrzonTopic starter

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #288 on: April 02, 2015, 09:27:02 PM »
Quote from: biggun;787285

On the one hand side he is afraid that new instructions would kill split the community
and that this would kill AMIGA - on the other hand Thomas did ask for special instruciton to decode JPEG faster.


i think thomas is generally sceptical about added instructions at least before a full stable 020 compatibility is achieved. not sure if any of us is totally against it. he just mentioned an example what would be useful from his point of view, if it is unavoidable.
 

Offline xboxOwn

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Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #289 on: April 02, 2015, 09:34:41 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;787289
i think thomas is generally sceptical about added instructions at least before a full stable 020 compatibility is achieved. not sure if any of us is totally against it. he just mentioned an example what would be useful from his point of view, if it is unavoidable.

but isn't this project in alpha stage anyways? Wouldn't there be multiple core versions that will meet everyone's meet in the long rung? Wouldn't there be issues at first, then as we progress we fix these issues later? Much like PS 4 operating system, linux, windows, etc. All of them have issues at release and get patched as days come by.

ONE OF THE GREATEST pleasure is patching my hardware in my A500 through workbench in my A500 itself. I mean, guys discuss (in civilized way) but whatever concern, issue, etc...aren't all of these will be resolved by downloading a 10 MB compressed zip file and then flashing the card with the new firmware?

I guess the only suggestion I would like to add to biggun if he is willing to listen to me :$ if possible could you add a tiny mini PCI or something that can fit inside the A500 case that allows the person to upgrade the RAM from 128 to say 1 GB or 2 GB RAM.

In the future 128 MB may not be sufficient for latest browsers, youtube, etc. I am hoping with this technology...youtube can be finally achieved in my A500. So I am looking for the forward and would love to have the choice to be able to upgrade the RAM by inserting memory stick into the Vampire 500.

Maybe this RAM extension would be the for the bigger version of Vampire 500 and the budget version is restricted to the limited 128 MB RAM.

I discovered in OS 4.1 that 128 MB is nothing...so from experience I will find 128 MB to be too limiting...especially if I want to do DOSBox, heavy emulation in my A500 etc.

What if the in the future PSX emulator or PS 2 emulator will be ported or N64 will  be ported...128 MB is too limiting.
 

Offline wawrzonTopic starter

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #290 on: April 02, 2015, 09:44:37 PM »
lemme comment quickly on subject of "fragmenting the community". because i think it really is an issue.

we have now four main camps everybody knows about and none is particularly happy about the split: amiga, morphos, os4 and aros.

then on amiga we have different 68k cpu versions there is a lot dedicated optimized software versions for. which is pain in the back, because its likely that users are using wrong software versions on wrong cpu and dont know what goes wrong. this is certainly annoying.

then there is aros with all the supported platforms. good thing about is that whatever gets into the repository it is built for all platforms mutually. but all other contributions must be compiled for every platform separately.

now, we have exotic niches like warpos. just as we speak there is an (interesting) project to get warpos working on mediator/sonnet setup i have already pointed to before:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=76633&page=3
it is all fine but this is just another incompatible binary platform.

another example is aros68k. although it executes amiga software and aros68k hunk binaries should run natively on amiga except they are linked against aros exclusive libraries, everything else would have to be defined as just another separate platform when putting it on, lets say, aminet.

taking it all into account, even though i am one of very few open aros68k supporters, my concern is to find a lowest common denominator to achieve maximal gain with a minimal effort for all or most these platforms. im not trying to prevent anyone from anything, just placing food for thought in this context.
 

Offline wawrzonTopic starter

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #291 on: April 02, 2015, 09:48:15 PM »
Quote from: xboxOwn;787290
but isn't this project in alpha stage anyways? Wouldn't there be multiple core versions that will meet everyone's meet in the long rung?


i hope the subsequent versions of the core will improve upon each other. what i definitely do not like to see, would be different incompatible versions of the core to address different expectations. some compromise gotta be found.
 

guest11527

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Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #292 on: April 02, 2015, 09:57:56 PM »
Quote from: xboxOwn;787290
but isn't this project in alpha stage anyways? Wouldn't there be multiple core versions that will meet everyone's meet in the long rung?
Actually, I do not think that this would be a good choice. The argument is again the same as above: If a user would have to decide between software for N different versions, I would expect a lot of trouble. This is very much the same reason why I believe that adding new instructions is not a good choice, at least not without further understanding what is actually needed and what is not.

Look, what I want to avoid is a "software mess" where we have half a dozend of different CPU cores and a user does not know which version of the software to install nowadays. Adding more versions is not helping.  
Quote from: xboxOwn;787290
Wouldn't there be issues at first, then as we progress we fix these issues later? Much like PS 4 operating system, linux, windows, etc. All of them have issues at release and get patched as days come by.
Oh yes, but these patches do not impact compatibility. Surely enough, the FPGA core will alsa have bugs - this is normal and not unexpected - and these will also be fixed later, also without impacting compatibility.

But what should not happen at this point is to create a "new core" that defines instructions we do not even know about at this point whether they will find applications.  
Quote from: xboxOwn;787290
ONE OF THE GREATEST pleasure is patching my hardware in my A500 through workbench in my A500 itself. I mean, guys discuss (in civilized way) but whatever concern, issue, etc...aren't all of these will be resolved by downloading a 10 MB compressed zip file and then flashing the card with the new firmware?
Well, yes. If we are talking about bugs, yes. But would you end up with software that says "must flash the core to version 3.4x first, and avoid branch 4A5". Look, with Amiga software (!) we have today the problem that we have (unfortunately) quite a number of extensions and "improvements" that cause problems by mutual incompatibility. Certain programs cannot be used togehter with certain other programs, authors probably did not know better, or decided that an "enhanced interface" would be better, but did not consider side effects.

Now, by moving "software into the hardware", a thing an FPGA core does, we run very much into the danger that the same problem appears again, but on a lower level. Namely, authors (not Gunnar alone) are creating mutual incompatible CPU cores that work almost, but not quite alike. Leading to "unexpected behavior" in some situations. The average user will not be able to resolve such a situation.  

Thus, at this point is seems to be very necessary to build on a very stable, and accepted ground. And that is the 68K ISA "as designed by Motorola", and not some "self made" extension. Maybe this extension is even useful, but it is still the wrong start for a project like this.    
Quote from: xboxOwn;787290
I guess the only suggestion I would like to add to biggun if he is willing to listen to me :$ if possible could you add a tiny mini PCI or something that can fit inside the A500 case that allows the person to upgrade the RAM from 128 to say 1 GB or 2 GB RAM.  
 Actually, to disappoint you: Gunnar is "only" programming the core. He does not build or design the hardware. So, not the right address. But if you want my two cents: Currently, this would make the project only more expensive and would create more costs, probably also more support costs by folks using incompatible or untested RAM. I would suggest against this, at least now.  
Quote from: xboxOwn;787290
I discovered in OS 4.1 that 128 MB is nothing...so from experience I will find 128 MB to be too limiting...especially if I want to do DOSBox, heavy emulation in my A500 etc.
Well, but look. Os 4.1 is PPC, which has a lower code density, and which is a more "elaborate" design than AmigaOs. I doubt we will see any browsers soon, or any memory extensive program. Once that happens, be ready for extensions. This is not the final project, it is a start.
 

Offline kolla

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #293 on: April 02, 2015, 09:59:16 PM »
XboxOwn: hey there, are you trolling too now?

I ask because the RAM limitation with these boards were discussed a couple of months ago, as normal here, it ended up in a hilarious "discussion" about what constitutes a 32bit computer. Hence I find it very amusing that you bring that up again.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 10:07:30 PM by kolla »
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline xboxOwn

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Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #294 on: April 02, 2015, 10:12:46 PM »
Quote from: kolla;787295
XboxOwn: hey there, are you trolling too now?

I ask because the RAM limitation with these boards were discussed a couple of months ago, as normal here, it ended up in a hilarious "discussion" about what constitutes a 32bit computer. Hence I find it very amusing that you bring that up again.


Oh God I hope not!! That is not my intention honestly. I will be quite to avoid unintentional trolling
 

Offline matthey

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Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #295 on: April 02, 2015, 10:21:10 PM »
Quote from: mikej;787283
There was never any disrespect from my side.

Absolutely, with communication, tolerance and respect from all sides, this small community would certainly be a happier place.

Mike, do you see a need for and would you support a standard's committee? I speak of not just 68k enhancements but also custom chipset enhancements. We recently had a discussion on EAB about custom chipset implementations and enhancements.

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=77679

Without standards, we are going to end up with many different incompatible enhancements. One standard will gain more and better support from developers. Look at the support of CGFX and AHI which shows how important a standard can be, especially in a small market like the Amiga. Some people have said standards aren't important because the Amiga is on the brink of dying but we have to plan like it will live. New hardware with hardware standards may be what revives it. I tried to document a standard 68k CPU ISA starting back in 2012 but the Amiga was too dead then for most people to worry about. Gunnar would say it is all my fault for rocking the boat of his Apollo ISA standard but I believe his standard is too radical for other 68k FPGA processors to follow. We need more conservative standards which most FPGA hardware and UAE could adopt when there is developer support and software. Custom enhancements could be built on top of the standards. We can't have one person dictating the standards and half a standard is no standard at all. I don't think a standards committee is going to happen without representives from FPGA Arcade and Mist. I would like to hear from compiler developers if possible including Frank Wille and/or Volker Barthelmann (are there any other active Amiga compiler devs?). A-Eon may be interested. A standard's committee would benefit Gunnar as well. Any arguments could be voted on. Anyone should be able to submit ideas and listen in to discussions. I would probably be considered too biased to be chairman which is fine. We can elect someone. I'm not sure what platform would be best. Does anyone like the idea or have any suggestions for improvements?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 10:34:45 PM by matthey »
 

Offline mikej

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Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #296 on: April 02, 2015, 10:39:05 PM »
Quote from: matthey;787298
Mike, do you see a need for and would you support a standard's committee?


Matthey,

I totally agree that without some form of standardisation the community will fracture.

From a CPU perspective, I see absolutely no point adding or changing any instructions - I'm focussing on functional and timing accuracy for the 68000, then performance for the 68020+.

Personally, if you are going to mess around with the architecture sufficiently to force a compiler modification, you might as well recompile to something else entirely. ARM or MIPs spring to mind.

For the chipset I have already made a few obvious improvements, such as extending all the DMA address register widths. There is not particularly controversial as there is space to do this in the memory map.

I don't expect software to use it, but if this sort of enhancement could be documented and agreed on, it becomes a possibility.

So yes, happy to be involved.

/Mike
 

Offline kolla

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #297 on: April 02, 2015, 10:39:32 PM »
Quote from: biggun;787285
Yes Thomas has been helpful is the past.

But I have to admit that I find this open ranting quite surprising.
If a friend is concerned about some details
 then I would have expected some email or phone call to talk about it
 not getting such a call but getting started the discussion with public critised is a bit funny.


I am totally outside of the project and only know Thomas from postings here on amiga.org, and I am not at all surprised that he has concerns, so how you of all people can be surprised is beyond me. I am quite sure he has raised his concerns to you earlier, as has Matthey. I recall when Matthey released his 68k roadmap and found it an odd thing to do, but now I totally understand where it came from.

Quote

A lot of misunformation was posted here.
People like Kolla seem totally confused now.


Actually I am not confused at all, I am just disappointed by so many factors of this project. It's kinda like Natami all over again.

Quote

Frankly I can absolutely not follow Thomas logic.
On the one hand side he is afraid that new instructions would kill split the community
and that this would kill AMIGA - on the other hand Thomas did ask for special instruciton to decode JPEG faster.
I really do not get why the one is *evil* but the other one would be a god sent.


Look, I am not a hardware engineer or software developer, but even I understand what he says - which is to keep the CPU clean and compatible, and put all "extra fun" in dedicated units.

I am all for MikeJ's approach - make damn sure you have pretty much 100% working and compatible 68020 core, _then_ tweak it for speed, piece by piece, so if something breaks, it is easy to pinpoint why, and fix/backtrack. When this stabilizes, by all means - make coprocessors all you like, but keep the 68020 CPU core untouched and as clean as possible. What you seem to be doing is tweaking the CPU before almost before anything at all is running, which in my view will result in a whole lot of unecessary bugs all over the place. But maybe I am jusy stupid and you really are a genious. Time will show.
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
A3000/060CSPPC+CVPPC/128MB + 256MB BigRAM/Deneb USB
A4000/CS060/Mediator4000Di/Voodoo5/128MB
A1200/Blz1260/IndyAGA/192MB
A1200/Blz1260/64MB
A1200/Blz1230III/32MB
A1200/ACA1221
A600/V600v2/Subway USB
A600/Apollo630/32MB
A600/A6095
CD32/SX32/32MB/Plipbox
CD32/TF328
A500/V500v2
A500/MTec520
CDTV
MiSTer, MiST, FleaFPGAs and original Minimig
Peg1, SAM440 and Mac minis with MorphOS
 

Offline wawrzonTopic starter

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #298 on: April 02, 2015, 10:43:01 PM »
Quote from: xboxOwn;787290
I discovered in OS 4.1 that 128 MB is nothing...

i see everybody is buying os4.1fe to try it out on uae and discovers that it is about unusable. funny. the same people could get aros68k, which is for free, can use almost unlimited amount of ram and unlimited screen resolution under uae, and discover, that 128mb ram is already plenty with the same or better features as are impossible to reach on os4. css web browsing to name just an example.

in short: as thor said above, the 68k code is more efficient, at least when it comes to memory usage.
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500
« Reply #299 on: April 02, 2015, 10:43:50 PM »
Quote from: wawrzon;787287
you could inform yourself to whom are you talking to and adjust your tone. and now good luck to continue to do your best to drive people who put work on this project apart.

So I'm just supposed to magically make the connection that two different names on two different forums are the same person?  That's as ridiculous as  demanding MacOS compatibility or the outright rejection of Gunnar's project because of new CPU instructions.

If people working on Gunnar's project are so unprofessional as to quit like cry-babies because of MY posts, then Gunnar and the rest of us really are better off without them!

Even Gunnar finds Thor/Thomas' comments and logic puzzling....not to mention that he's making an open spectacle of himself because of his resistance to additional CPU instructions.  This situation is no different than using AltiVec extensions on a PPC CPU.  If you don't want to use AltiVec, then don't use it.  Same goes for SSE instructions on Intel/AMD.  But I don't know of ANY programmers who set out to cripple their code.......
« Last Edit: April 02, 2015, 10:54:44 PM by ferrellsl »