Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"

[yssing]

Good question wawrzon, BUT cost efficiency aside, Is a total of 120-140 euro too much to ask for a OS from 2008 to almost 2015?

No, not at all.

I have bought licenses for win98, xp, vista, seven and 8. I never expected to get anything beyond 98 for free, just because that was what I initially payed for.

[wawrzon]

Good question wawrzon, BUT cost efficiency aside, Is a total of 120-140 euro too much to ask for a OS from 2008 to almost 2015?

it is not a question of time frame the payments cover but of what has been actually done within this time. maybe im wrong, but i dont see much progress that would have to be particularly covered here. about all fatures that have been annouced as killer features or arguments for purchase have either been cancelled or postponed beyond this time frame, likely cancelled either way.

in comparison i used and still use windows xp systems. i dont count the years anymore, but this is of course not a fair comparison, so i would actially refrain from it if it wasnt brought up before.

[Spectre660]

I linked to Hyperion's Original announcement I can see no such thing.

http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60:announcing-amigaos-41&catid=36:amigaos-4x&Itemid=18

In the original announcement.  You should check moo they have all the links and quotes there iirc.

[wawrzon]

@niding

it is not a question of time frame the payments cover but of what has been actually done within this time. maybe im wrong, but i dont see much progress that would have to be particularly covered here. about all fatures that have been annouced as killer features or arguments for purchase have either been cancelled or postponed beyond this time frame, likely cancelled either way.

in comparison i used and still use windows xp systems. i dont count the years anymore, but this is of course not a fair comparison, so i would actially refrain from it if it wasnt brought up before.

btw i dont consider the user investments you quote inadequate. in the same time, that means since ive got interested in aros i have put more than that into the different bounties. still most of them already paid off. most aros or multiplatform bounties are additional to what os4 user already needs to pay, but then they usually also deliver what was promissed. as example the 68k kickstart replacement bounty. the result is, that we have actually at least under winuae almost fully functionable amiga system replacement with additional features. plus while that en course a lot of other aspects of aros had to be improved. i think it fairly exceeds what the bounty has originally been supposed to cover.

[takemehomegrandma]

@takemehomegrandma

I think the problem people have with your post starting the thread, is this:

Would your reaction have been the same if it had been MorphOS that had suddenly asked for 30 Euros for next update?

• Of course, since suddenly introducing a new license fee on MorphOS 3.8 out of the blue would be the same "breach of contract" with the users as this case is; all +0.1 version bumps within a "big" MorphOS version line is free of charge. I actually expected that v3.0 would mean a new license, since it was a major upgrade, but that din't happen, my 2.0 license was still valid for 3.x upgrades.
• You really don't think (you falsly take for granted for some reason) that I have never publicly critizised the MorphOS price and pricing policy? This is utterly wrong, I have been very vocal online on this subject, especially about the (then) high price (150 Euros), that it was tied to one machine only and couldn't be transfered if I upgrade to another machine, and that there was no discount for purchase of multiple licenses. All is still there (on Morph.Zone if you dig some).
  
  
• New users are constantly joining the MorphOS community, and with some frequence and regularity some of them will do just this, publicly raise question and express their views on MorphOS price and its pricing policy and license scheme. The discussions can go on for a couple of posts, but never, *NEVER* are they met with the kind agression and hostility as OS4 supporters (especially those who actually never have had OS4, which is a funny fact) *always* shows as soon as anything/whatever is said about OS4 that isn't pure Gospel! You don't see this in the AROS community either, or in Amiga "Classic", it's something *exclusive* for OS4. And I find it *sick* to be honest. Many are the threads about MorphOS license costs and policies on Morph.Zone, far from everyone express happy thoughts about it, but they are *never* met with this kind of hostility shown here, no abuse, there has never been a need for moderation whatsoever (I'm not even sure there are moderators on that site, that's how little you notice them), and I don't think it even has those "report buttons" that together with frontier moderation style is such an essential, core component in everything OS4 online.

I think many of us suspect that instead of that, you would have posted about how "MorphOS is now the cheapest, as well as the best OS"

This is not even a hypothesis; the cost of compatible HW + MorphOS usually is around 1/10th to 1/30 of of the price for an OS4 system that in best case is only slightly less powerful than the MorphOS one, and in worst case only delivers a fraction of the performance.

and "MorphOS is now allowing people to support their devs again after years of unpaid work!".

Karlos and Itix are discussing the saturation of the OS4 market above. OS4 has been locked into an impossible HW situation, like... Forever! And even more so the last half decade! The only few people willing to actually pay those insane price tags for those ancient performance machines only to run something like OS4, did so a long time ago already! The OS4 license model depends on a constant stream of new users. But no new users are coming! They are all here already, and if anything, some are actually leaving! So they are breaching their "deal" with the current users that the next paid update would be OS4.2, and decides to charge money once again for OS4.1 through the seventh update.

MorphOS developers on the other hand sell new licenses all the time. Their license model instead depends on a constant stream of new supported machines and HW platforms. The possible HW offerings are today just as versatile as the "super company" Apple's was for PPC, since it's essentially the same! Compact, tiny footprint Mac Mini, several big box G4 towers, many different laptop models, heavy G5, etc. Each new supported platform renders new sales of OS licenses, to existing users, but also to new users from other parts of the community (I wouldn't be surprised if there are more OS4 users that also has one or more MorphOS license, than OS4 users who still doesn't have a single one).

Look at this graph, and draw your own conclusions, since then KimmoK was very close to get the magic #2500 license, and #2534 from Debaser was reported as the highest number, but that was a while ago now:

(Edit: I shrunk the size of the image a bit, click on it for the original size)



Up to v2.3, MorphOS only supported Pegasos (1&2) and Efika. Had the MorphOS Team not decided to go for Mac PPC HW, then the graph would quickly have levelled out after the 2.3, ending up as an horizontal line very close to only #740 licenses sold, and it would forever have been stuck in a saturated market since then. Just like OS4 finds itself in now.

Luckily, the MorphOS Team went with a different strategy than the OS4 dudes...

So yes, "MorphOS is now allowing people to support their devs", not by asking for charity or by double-charging their already sold licenses, but by introducing a stream of new offerings that people actually finds interesting enough to buy. An owner of a Mac Mini or a big box Power Mac can easily become interested in a laptop offering as well!

[Niding]

Decent post mama.

The discussion about choice of hardware is a very valid one. But AOS made its path choice, and Ive several times commented that the options in that direction is a bit too steep.
SAM systems are okish, but sadly not very upgradable.
So I dont think you will find many that wont agree with you they wish the hardware options where more economical.

With that said, the options have been very visible for a long time and Its up to each and everyone to decide if its worth it to him/her.
With the baseline decided hardwarewise, I personally make my comment from the point of view that how well are x company/person doing within the given framework.
Amigakit and Pascal with their shopfront is one good step.
Aeon and the radeon driver is another.
Do I think its fair to hold the developmentpace and feature standard of Microsoft/windows as a comparison to Hyperion/AOS? Nope, because then you would do nothing but find flaws and complains. Then both AROS and MophOS, based on what Ive read, falls flat on its face too.
Do I feel the urge to constantly compare them with massproduction market? Nope, I adjust my expectations according to reality based on resources.

Basically I, for one, accept the choice of hardware that has been made, and try to find the positive from THAT perspective. Only seeing the negative does not help.

Anyhow, the different points of view seems so entrenched, I dont see much point posting futher on the topic.

@wawrzon,

My baseline when it comes to whats reasonable featureprogress is different for NG "amiga" platforms as you can see compared to MAINstream OSs. Its all about realising the resorces available.
If you insist on using Microsoft as the baseline, the relativly few developers on our platforms would never be entitled to ask for a return on their effort. Including all the bounties.
Some think that is a fair way of evaluating, while others (like me) think ok to ask for a bit in return once in while.

[wawrzon]

My baseline when it comes to whats reasonable featureprogress is different for NG "amiga" platforms as you can see compared to MAINstream OSs. Its all about realising the resorces available.
If you insist on using Microsoft as the baseline, the relativly few developers on our platforms would never be entitled to ask for a return on their effort. Including all the bounties.
Some think that is a fair way of evaluating, while others (like me) think ok to ask for a bit in return once in while.

reread my post. im not insisting on using ms as reference. i have mentioned it pretty clearly i think. im comparing the amigalike oses what concerns return/investments vs progress&features and the result of this comparison is i think pretty clear.

what i also i consider a very important pont is transparency. i want to know what im investing into and what i support. additionally i like the possibility to fund particular aspects of development i consider important and interesting to me. this all is given and guaranteed with aros option as default. with os4, if not absolutely impossible it is not wanted. it is like stuffing huge amounts money into a black box. maybe something comes out on the other end, maybe not. the outcome is uncertain and from past experience we know usually very little of whats been advertised up front to secure users interest and investements gets actually achieved. sorry, but i find this business model unsatisfactory and not trustworthy.

[Niding]

reread my post. im not insisting on using ms as reference. i have mentioned it pretty clearly i think. im comparing the amigalike oses what concerns return/investments vs progress&features and the result of this comparison is i think pretty clear.

what i also i consider a very important pont is transparency. i want to know what im investing into and what i support. additionally i like the possibility to fund particular aspects of development i consider important and interesting to me. this all is given and guaranteed with aros option as default. with os4, if not absolutely impossible it is not wanted. it is like stuffing huge amounts money into a black box. maybe something comes out on the other end, maybe not. the outcome is uncertain and from past experience we know usually very little of whats been advertised up front to secure users interest and investements gets actually achieved. sorry, but i find this business model unsatisfactory and not trustworthy.

Well, Im no developer, but Ive seen comments about problems taking longer than expected which affects the features developed within x amount of time=missing expected deadlines.
As far as "throwing huge money into a black box"; huge money is debatable, but its all relative.

Imho you have to a certain extent leave sanity at the door when joining a small community like this, with all platforms. I dont think im far off the mark if a outsider came in and watched our discussions and he thought we where arguing about "Who are the LEAST insane".
If you want to impose the money vs performance vs timespent ratio too closely on ANY of our platforms, then it makes no sense to do anything but use Linux, Windows or IOS.
Windows; plug and play for pretty much every hardware option out there, why look futher?
And for the developers its complete insanity to spend so much time and effort for so little gratitude generally displayed.

I think the answer is; people enjoy the challenge, the fact that its different (better suited to your needs) or nostalgica. For some its a pure hobby, while some tryin to make a living out of it. But flagging common sense regarding AOS, AROS or MorphOS is frankly silly
(Please take that in the most friendly manner you can, cause Im still upgrading my A1200).

[wawrzon]

Well, Im no developer, but Ive seen comments about problems taking longer than expected which affects the features developed within x amount of time=missing expected deadlines.

as mentioned countless times there are many repeated examples of what has been advertised, reported close to release, then the public left with no update on the subject or further months and years till eventually someonle mentions it and then it is again being reported as close to release. what if not that should be called "vaporware"? the list is long and includes many features that are available on alternative and less extensively founded platforms, just to name gallium, warp3d, smp, particular device drivers, browsers and other productivity software..

As far as "throwing huge money into a black box"; huge money is debatable, but its all relative.

i think that most would agree that paying multiple thousand just for the hardware to run the system is already huge meoney. then paying te os. paying the neccessary device drivers it does not include. buying all sorts of merchandise and eye candy and then contributiung to the bounties and supporting the developers may resule in even more money.

Imho you have to a certain extent leave sanity at the door when joining a small community like this, with all platforms.

no. you dont. i consider myself reasonable and have never invested in anything amiga i would call insane with one single exception, when i bought a system along with a ppc accelerator. everything else was rather a good value for money. even the relaively pricey deneb card. i have used all that in my work and i i continue to enjoy it till now, which i wouldnt if i was pressed to throw in money i need otherwise. im certain, many feel alike.

And for the developers its complete insanity to spend so much time and effort for so little gratitude generally displayed.

nothing wrong with displaying gratitude. but are the aros developers worth less gratitude? i dont understand why what applies to few does not apply to others.

[Niding]

as mentioned countless times there are many repeated examples of what has been advertised, reported close to release, then the public left with no update on the subject or further months and years till eventually someonle mentions it and then it is again being reported as close to release. what if not that should be called "vaporware"? the list is long and includes many features that are available on alternative and less extensively founded platforms, just to name gallium, warp3d, smp, particular device drivers, browsers and other productivity software..

i think that most would agree that paying multiple thousand just for the hardware to run the system is already huge meoney. then paying te os. paying the neccessary device drivers it does not include. buying all sorts of merchandise and eye candy and then contributiung to the bounties and supporting the developers may resule in even more money.

no. you dont. i consider myself reasonable and have never invested in anything amiga i would call insane with one single exception, when i bought a system along with a ppc accelerator. everything else was rather a good value for money. even the relaively pricey deneb card. i have used all that in my work and i i continue to enjoy it till now, which i wouldnt if i was pressed to throw in money i need otherwise. im certain, many feel alike.

nothing wrong with displaying gratitude. but are the aros developers worth less gratitude? i dont understand why what applies to few does not apply to others.

YOU consider yourself reasonable (and im sure you are), but since everything in these threads are relative to this and that with regards to performance and cost, for a outsider of this "community", you scale might be a bit off.

And just cause person A doesnt want a monetary return for his effort, doesnt stop person B to feel/be eintitled do so. Its Kinda like in the airline industry; tons of aspiring pilots running down the Airlines doors PAYING for simulator training and checks, putting it into a underbidding of working condictions. Recognisable pattern and users have the goal of "free tickets".
The comparison is a stretch, but I sure see similarities.

[chris]

Of course, it's still up to the user if they want to spend their money.  Choice is a wonderful thing.  I'd honestly happily buy FE if I could be sure that if after that, if I bought 4.2 that I wouldn't be needing to pay another 30E for every 4.2 Update.  I spend more on coffee and meals at work per day than what FE costs, so it's not a matter of cost.  The cost is more than reasonable as long as every little update in the future isn't a pay for deal.

But it's still an in line, in rev. update.  I'm still being asked to pay 30 euros for an update to 4.1, an operating system that I already paid well over 100 euros for in the first place.  I'd be just as annoyed if MS was charging for in-line, in rev. updates (aka Service Packs).  This being said, it's one heck of a bargain for people entering the ecosystem, but I fear the future of all this and I am sincerely debating getting out of the OS4 game entirely, as in selling my OS4 machines outright.  That really annoys me in itself, since I'm finally developing for the platform and I'm having great fun with it :/  Of course, it's my option entirely

What I fear is I'd pay 30e for FE, then: 4.2 comes out and I'd need to spend another 100e or better on it (which is nearly twice what I paid for OEM Windows quite recently, btw) - then perhaps OS 4.2 Update 1 comes out and I'd be expected to pay another 30 euros for 4.2 Update 1, then another 30 E for 4.2 U2, another 30E for 4.2 Update 3, so on and so forth.

I fear getting milked out of my hard earned cash like I'm a stolen goat every single minuscule update.

I don't have a particular problem with their pricing policy, however I think it could be a bit more coherent. I agree with the above.

OS4.1fe should have been named 4.1.7 or even 4.2. That way psychologically you're not paying for an update to something you already own (and have been getting free updates to), but are buying a new version of the OS.

Anything previously announced for OS4.2 could be pushed back to OS4.3, and as a goodwill gesture the people entitled to a free OS4.2 would also get some discount off OS4.3 - or the features promised for OS4.2 could be added later as free updates.

That's how I would have handled it anyway, none of this "final edition" bollocks.

[amoskodare]

@thread

PS: AmigaOS4.1 Final Edition is AKA OS4.1 Update 8, not Update 7 'cause that's already out on X1000...

Just a quick note

[Spectre660]

@Chris

You forget that AmigaOS 4.2 has some contractual obligations for X1000 owners on the part of A-eon .

[ppcamiga1]

YOU consider yourself reasonable (and im sure you are), but since everything in these threads are relative to this and that with regards to performance and cost, for a outsider of this "community", you scale might be a bit off.

If we consider use only 68k software, after year 2000 the fastest Amiga 68k is uae with jit on pc.

Uae with jit on pc has also  the best price / performance ratio.

Using anything else to run only 68k software is stupid,  and wawa should scrap his slow amiga, and should use uae with jit.

[wawrzon]

@chris
im not sure if you proposal to release 4.1 fe as 4.2, push the updates back to 4.3 and grant the users promised 4.2 for free a discount on what they have been promised wouldnt in fact put off even more people.

however you seem to be correct, that things seems to be decided without an actual comprehensible and logical plan, but rather based as nervous attempts of damage control

4.1fe has been announced as a stop gap solution this summer, obviously in awareness that 4.2 isnt going to be ready any soon, yet something needs to be announced on amiwest in order to prevent customers dissatisfaction. it looks like it was genuinely planned as a paid update, not a paid full release. in the leaked amiga-future article it looks like its cost is being defended in anticipation of expected wave of criticism and also the development team lead at amiwest seems not to have been updated on the new pricing strategy till the very last moment and therefore spreading outdated and inaccurate information. it really looks like the unfavorable reaction of the public was the immediate cause to offer what likely was planned a paid update as a full release. the already officially announced price could not be corrected, to adjust the return, but newly avaliable ppc emulation could be expected to compensate it at least partly with the higher expected sells. so at least a disaster could have been avoided.

[wawrzon]

If we consider use only 68k software, after year 2000 the fastest Amiga 68k is uae with jit on pc.

Uae with jit on pc has also  the best price / performance ratio.

Using anything else to run only 68k software is stupid,  and wawa should scrap his slow amiga, and should use uae with jit.

i am using uae as well if need be. everything depends on what im particularly up to. usually real hardware along with an emulation is a good tandem to push things a little further.

as for scrapping my amigas, i dont feel like it, sorry. and i dont think i need to explain myself to anyone as to why. on the contrary, a request to distroy amiga hardware sounds for me rather uncalled for on an amiga forum.