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Offline DandyTopic starter

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #119 from previous page: July 14, 2014, 01:27:39 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;768908


Peace please, now you are starting to bash others... expecially with using phrases like "characters" this could be seen as insulting



I'm just trying to get rid of those in this discussion who are permanently bashing the implementation of XENA/XORRO and the people behind this idea.

Not sure what should be insulting with the use of the word 'characters'...

Quote from: OlafS3;768908


and commenting "they're better off with classic Amiga stuff".



If someone isn't interested in the NG stuff, but is permanently around in NG threads and gets on the bad side of NG interested people by bashing them for their interest, then he really would be better off if he cared more for the classic stuff, wouldn't you agree?

Quote from: OlafS3;768908


New FPGAs are used all over the industry



I don't mind...

Quote from: OlafS3;768908


so this "we are the best, the modern, the NG owners" and there are the "retros 68k old fashioned gaming people" is not true
...



I never claimed that - after all I'm a classic user myself (Amiga4000 PPC w. OS 3.9 & WarpOS 16.1 /experimental OS 4.0 classic installation).
All the best,

Dandy

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Offline DandyTopic starter

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #120 on: July 14, 2014, 01:39:15 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;768918


...
I have read first time about JTAG. If I understand it right it is only to test everything.



According to Lyle Haze it is a command line interface to program the XENA chips:

Quote from: LyleHaze;768409


...
Just before AmiWest 2012 I was able to complete the JTAG programmer that lets us program the Xena chip from the command line. This is not "sexy" stuff, but it's necessary before much else happens.
...

All the best,

Dandy

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Offline OlafS3

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #121 on: July 14, 2014, 01:40:23 PM »
Quote from: Dandy;768921
I'm just trying to get rid of those in this discussion who are permanently bashing the implementation of XENA/XORRO and the people behind this idea.

Not sure what should be insulting with the use of the word 'characters'...



If someone isn't interested in the NG stuff, but is permanently around in NG threads and gets on the bad side of NG interested people by bashing them for their interest, then he really would be better off if he cared more for the classic stuff, wouldn't you agree?



I don't mind...



I never claimed that - after all I'm a classic user myself (Amiga4000 PPC w. OS 3.9 & WarpOS 16.1 /experimental OS 4.0 classic installation).


hmm ok

the thread I mentioned but hard stuff:
http://www.xcore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2477

shows how specific it is
 

Offline F0LLETT

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #122 on: July 14, 2014, 02:28:34 PM »
Quote from: Boot_WB;768919
Price-wise, the one you linked to seems to be pretty good value. Given the number of vias, I'd be surprised if Amigakit is making more than a nominal handling fee on them.
That's not the one I was thinking of though, it looks more like a breadboard.

The board I (thought I had) heard mentioned offered the Xorro slot's i/o pins (and possibly power, etc) to a connector (eg a D-Sub) on the backplane.

@Amigakit - not sure if you have already, and I'm sure you'd have it well planned out, but if designing such a board it may be worth adding a 6-pin PCIe power header on the expansion board to be powered directly from PSU, and putting some current-limiting circuitry to the Xorro connector to prevent the possibility of shorting the PCIe power lines on the PCIex16 slot to ground (assuming that Xorro has the 12V 75W power supply lines connected as per PCIe spec).
PSUs are easier to replace than Nemos after all. :)


Thats a nice idea. However that would require a board redesign and the boards are already made.

Seriously though if your going to be playing with a project board. You should be aware of the risks and dangers of shorting out voltage rails. If your unsure, its a case of check, double check and triple check.

Im sure someone will pick at what I have posted, but lets face facts.
I may be an Electronics Engineer and know about Electrics, doesnt mean I will go play with the mains Electrics in my house. I check, double check and triple check before doing anything. If Im unsure I will leave it until I know.

If we had all this tech around when I was a kid, Im sure I would playing around with the zorro board to do different stuff. Spose its a bit like the electronics lab I go as a kid, made lots of things with that including my first AM Radio.
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Offline itix

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #123 on: July 14, 2014, 03:58:25 PM »
@Dandy

This is "classic" Amiga forum so most users here see it from "classic" view of point.

Anyway, JTAG is just an interface to debug boards. It can be part of Amiga expansion boards or to anything you can wish for. But you need JTAG programmer cable and software to use JTAG programmer. You can get USB models for 1500 EUR, PCI debuggers used to be cheaper and I guess there is some free software for Linux you can use for this task. With JTAG you can run software from the host computer on your dev board, examine memory, set breaking points etc. Very handy for software development.

To use JTAG debugger you can have graphical development environment or use command line. Command line is just used to upload software, set breakpoints and other stuff you know. The target enviroment itself is not executing those commands.

OS4 dont have JTAG software but I believe you can use PC or even some Linux distro on X1K if there are free drivers not locked to x86. So called "classic" Amiga is probably too slow to debug your SW in real time (i.e. to get debug prints via JTAG) but you dont really need fast machine to use JTAG. But as usual your problem is lack of software and lack of drivers to use JTAG programmers. I dont think there is going to be any.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 04:51:44 PM by itix »
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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #124 on: July 14, 2014, 04:29:38 PM »
Quote from: Dandy;768921
I'm just trying to get rid of those in this discussion who are permanently bashing the implementation of XENA/XORRO and the people behind this idea.

Not sure what should be insulting with the use of the word 'characters'...

If someone isn't interested in the NG stuff, but is permanently around in NG threads and gets on the bad side of NG interested people by bashing them for their interest, then he really would be better off if he cared more for the classic stuff, wouldn't you agree?
i certainly would agree. :)

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Offline LyleHaze

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #125 on: July 14, 2014, 07:08:04 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;768918
...
I have read first time about JTAG. If I understand it right it is only to test everything.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Test_Action_Group (German)

here is a interesting discussion with one known person involved :-)

http://www.xcore.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2477


The original purpose of JTAG was to allow board manufacturers the ability to test assembled boards with a minimal hardware interface. By chainging them serially and setting a common interface spec even dissimilar chips can be polled and verified in a single JTAG loop.

As used with XMOS chips like Xena, which usually keep the executable code in RAM, it allows that ram to be programmed, and also allows setting of various configuration options such as links between cores(tiles), PLL clock divider settings, and other various details required to get a XS1-L16A chip up and running.

Within the realm of hobbyists, the XMOS chips are almost exclusively run this way, since the OTP ROM is, well.. One Time programmable. It'as not flash, and once it has been progframmed, that chip is committed to that code forever.

Obviously Flash would be more hobbyist-friendly, but it would also create security concerns for any commercial products made with XMOS chips.

Getting back towards the topic(s)..
The non-Amiga XMOS hobbyists are largely oblivious to all these JTAG details. The XDK suite provided by XMOS will seek out XMOS compatible JTAG programmers on startup, then access those to get ChipID's, and often board IDs from the JTAG device. Net result, it's all super-automatic, hands-off, and self managed. Just plug your stuff in and everything is configured automatically. All of this is wonderfully convenient, but it leaves those with non-XMOS kit out in the cold, so to speak.

The discussion you referenced is about one of the "new" products from XMOS. They are now building the USBtoJTAG directly into their newer kit, and doing it in a way that can NOT be easily reached from an external JTAG programmer. This means that we will not be able to use these new "StartKits" from an X-Series AmigaOne, because there's no place to connect JTAG to it.
They are meant to be used only on XMOS supported platforms with XMOS authored software.
Eventually a few hackers found a way to (somewhat) get around this, but not without some loss of function.

Veering back towards a topic once more.. JTAG on Xena is required to load any Xena program you wish to run, The JTAG loop is extended to the XORRO board, so that additional XMOS chips can be added at will. The XMOS tools that we have can load code into any number of XMOS chips through this loop, as well as freeze execution and read the current state of all the chips in the JTAG loop. This can be useful for debugging. We can dump RAM, registers, switch states, ROM, lots of stuff I have not yet documented. There is also a XReset command that will drop all connected (or any one connected) chip back into it's inert power-on state. While these are technically command-line tools, they work with tooltypes as well. Any XMOS program that sets XRunXE as it's default tool with load up when double-clicked.

About adding DB connectors to the Xorro board, that is possible, but I would discourage it. Perhaps I am overly cautious, but anything I connect that comes outside of the case will be optically isolated. While this may be overkill, I think it a prudent choice. I have an SD card there now, no need for isolation. I have a MAX3232 chip, which is connected to the serial port inside the case. again, no need for isolation there. But anything that comes outside the case, for joysticks or whatever else, will be isolated on my machine, and I would suggest that others consider it as well.

Intersting thought.. the S/PDIF in and out connections are optical by design, so adding those should be as safe as anyone could hope.. a very easy way to get high bandwidth audio in and out of the Xena chip.

I am being called away..

LyleHaze
 

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #126 on: July 14, 2014, 07:10:09 PM »
Quote from: Dandy;768921
I'm just trying to get rid of those in this discussion who are permanently bashing the implementation of XENA/XORRO and the people behind this idea.

Please calm down everyone.  If you have a problem with what any other member writes in a forum message, and you think that it violates the Posting Guidelines for this site,please do not lash out against them, just use the "Report" post button to bring the message to the attention of the moderators.  It is certainly not any members right or responsibility to "get rid of" other members who happen to have a differing opinion.  The owner(s) of this site want the forums to be a welcoming place for all users and points of view.  That being said, all members should reacquaint themselves with the Posting Guidelines and not insult or "bash" other members ideas, choices, or opinions.  The moderation staff has been very lenient while the transition from the previous owner & management to the new owner(s) and management has been taking place, but that does not mean that we don't care, or we are not watching and reading what is going on in the forums.

Ideally, all forum site managers and moderators would prefer that all members self moderate their forum messages, so that management and moderators don't have to remind any members how they have agreed to behave when they agreed to the Posting Guidelines at the time they signed up to be a member here.  So let's all behave ourselves and enjoy these forums as a place to share our love of all things related to the Amiga, which brought all of us together in the first place.:)
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline Jeff

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #127 on: July 14, 2014, 07:41:42 PM »
Projects like the wonderful "Minimig" by Dennis started as a thread if I recall. Several other long time Amiga related sites have many neat projects that start from a single thread or idea, often from one person. The community builds on them by adding yet even more great ideas or suggestions.  Sometimes it goes nowhere, other times a new product is born.  

I think we need all of our great minds assembled one place to brainstorm new ideas, no matter how unrealistic or impractical they may seem at the time of discussion.
 

Offline amigadave

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #128 on: July 14, 2014, 08:29:58 PM »
Quote from: itix;768928
@Dandy

This is "classic" Amiga forum

No, this is an Amiga forum that is open and welcome to all flavors of the Amiga experience.  It is one of, if not THE oldest Amiga forum site, so it began before many of the newer Amiga flavors existed, but that does not mean that it is ONLY for Classic Amiga users.

Quote
so most users here see it from "classic" view of point.

The majority of users in the Amiga community are "Classic" Amiga owners/users, so it is no surprise that a "Classic" Amiga point of view is expressed more often here.  The new owner(s) want to make this site a welcoming place for all users of any Amiga or Amiga inspired system.

Please keep this in mind when posting to these forums.:)
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #129 on: July 14, 2014, 10:57:06 PM »
Quote from: LyleHaze;768945
About adding DB connectors to the Xorro board, that is possible, but I would discourage it. Perhaps I am overly cautious, but anything I connect that comes outside of the case will be optically isolated. While this may be overkill, I think it a prudent choice. I have an SD card there now, no need for isolation. I have a MAX3232 chip, which is connected to the serial port inside the case. again, no need for isolation there. But anything that comes outside the case, for joysticks or whatever else, will be isolated on my machine, and I would suggest that others consider it as well.


If I did have time for my CNC controller idea, then the first thing that I'd do would be to design a bidirectional opto-isolation board. IIRC, the stepper motor controllers use up to 60V input,** and I definitely don't want that voltage level (or back-emf from the motors) finding its way into my machine.

Hans


** NOTE: The motors themselves are much lower voltage, but the driver chips benefit from having a high voltage at their input.
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Offline LyleHaze

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #130 on: July 15, 2014, 12:09:33 AM »
Quote from: itix;768928
...
Anyway, JTAG is just an interface to debug boards. It can be part of Amiga expansion boards or to anything you can wish for. But you need JTAG programmer cable and software to use JTAG programmer.

True for most computers, but not for A-EON X-Series computers..
we have the JTAG interface built in and pre-wired to the Xena chip.
As to software, we have a basic tool suite for programming and debugging.

... Very handy for software development.
Quote from: itix;768928
To use JTAG debugger you can have graphical development environment or use command line. Command line is just used to upload software, set breakpoints and other stuff you know. The target enviroment itself is not executing those commands.
 
True, but the target XMOS chips are halted for most JTAG operations, which can definitely affect execution.

Quote from: itix;768928
OS4 dont have JTAG software but I believe you can use PC or even some Linux distro on X1K if there are free drivers not locked to x86.
We have basic tools to program or debug XMOS chips, which matches the built in JTAG port connected to those chips. Anything tools coming from XMOS will run on X86 only.

Quote from: itix;768928
So called "classic" Amiga is probably too slow to debug your SW in real time (i.e. to get debug prints via JTAG) but you dont really need fast machine to use JTAG.
XMOS JTAG does not operate in "Real Time", at least not the tools we have.
There are FAR more advanced tools, like XScope, and other neat features available in the "XDE" package.. which can probably emulate Xena just fine, as long as you don't need to emulate the localbus interface. The XTools are very pretty, very slick, very capable, and they do a great job of isolating you from the actual process.. which some people will admire, and some others may not be happy with.
But if you have a Win or some specific Linux flavors available, by all means download their XDE and give it a spin! I can even offer an "A-EON_Xena.xn" file which will yield correctly configured binaries.  I also have a "printf" replacement that streams out a serial port on Xena (if you have added a serial port)
I was also informed yesterday that Segher has completed newlib, though I don't know if it is "c", "xc", or both.

Quote from: itix;768928
But as usual your problem is lack of software and lack of drivers to use JTAG programmers. I dont think there is going to be any.

We have our basic JTAG tools, and everyone with an X-Series AmigaOne has the Xena, JTAG, and everything else in place already. All they need is a Xorro board to reach the open I/O..
And I have been told that once projects are available, AmigaKit will offer boards that are pre-built to the customers needs. (Great for coders who don't know which end of a soldering iron to hold) *see note*

Despite repeated campaigning on my part, XMOS is not showing any inclination to port their XDE to the Amiga. We would need a mature Java foundation to run Eclipse anyway. But there is always the option of developing under a simulator in XDE and then bringing the result over to AmigaOS for final testing on the real hardware. And there may be other options available in the future.

*Note* the only thing scarier than a programmer with a soldering iron is.. a technician with a flash drive.. Just a bit of humor folks.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 12:37:57 AM by LyleHaze »
 

Offline LyleHaze

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #131 on: July 15, 2014, 01:42:12 AM »
My apologies, I missed an opportunity to pass useful information.

xTIMEcomposer version Community13.1.0 can be downloaded from
https://www.xmos.com/support/xtools
after a free and simple registration.

Once installed, the user may select
XS1-L16A
as target device if you are interested in Xena compatibility.
There are a few of those devices listed, we have the faster
500MHZ version.

Note: the executable will be missing platform-specific settings
for the PLL, which is fixed by re-compiling against A-EON_Xena.xn.
Otherwise that chip _IS_ the chip used for Xena.

Coders and dreamers alike are welcome to browse the public fora at
http://www.xcore.com/

which are well supported by XMOS employees and users alike.

There's also a free git hub at
http://www.xcore.com/github

and a listing of free projects at
http://www.xcore.com/projects

All easily linked from the main forum pages.

I'm just saying, if you'd rather do than talk, the means are available.

And if you happen to see Segher there, please thank him for supporting our community!

:)
 

Offline kickstart

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #132 on: July 15, 2014, 02:25:46 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;768954
The new owner(s) want to make this site a welcoming place for all users of any Amiga or Amiga inspired system.

Please keep this in mind when posting to these forums.:)


The owners dont care, the users are the important thing, if majority of users are on the classic side is better than oriented to "NG" systems.
a1200 060
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #133 on: July 15, 2014, 09:19:52 AM »
Quote from: LyleHaze;768945
The original purpose of JTAG was to allow board manufacturers the ability to test assembled boards with a minimal hardware interface. By chainging them serially and setting a common interface spec even dissimilar chips can be polled and verified in a single JTAG loop.

As used with XMOS chips like Xena, which usually keep the executable code in RAM, it allows that ram to be programmed, and also allows setting of various configuration options such as links between cores(tiles), PLL clock divider settings, and other various details required to get a XS1-L16A chip up and running.

Within the realm of hobbyists, the XMOS chips are almost exclusively run this way, since the OTP ROM is, well.. One Time programmable. It'as not flash, and once it has been progframmed, that chip is committed to that code forever.

Obviously Flash would be more hobbyist-friendly, but it would also create security concerns for any commercial products made with XMOS chips.

Getting back towards the topic(s)..
The non-Amiga XMOS hobbyists are largely oblivious to all these JTAG details. The XDK suite provided by XMOS will seek out XMOS compatible JTAG programmers on startup, then access those to get ChipID's, and often board IDs from the JTAG device. Net result, it's all super-automatic, hands-off, and self managed. Just plug your stuff in and everything is configured automatically. All of this is wonderfully convenient, but it leaves those with non-XMOS kit out in the cold, so to speak.

The discussion you referenced is about one of the "new" products from XMOS. They are now building the USBtoJTAG directly into their newer kit, and doing it in a way that can NOT be easily reached from an external JTAG programmer. This means that we will not be able to use these new "StartKits" from an X-Series AmigaOne, because there's no place to connect JTAG to it.
They are meant to be used only on XMOS supported platforms with XMOS authored software.
Eventually a few hackers found a way to (somewhat) get around this, but not without some loss of function.

Veering back towards a topic once more.. JTAG on Xena is required to load any Xena program you wish to run, The JTAG loop is extended to the XORRO board, so that additional XMOS chips can be added at will. The XMOS tools that we have can load code into any number of XMOS chips through this loop, as well as freeze execution and read the current state of all the chips in the JTAG loop. This can be useful for debugging. We can dump RAM, registers, switch states, ROM, lots of stuff I have not yet documented. There is also a XReset command that will drop all connected (or any one connected) chip back into it's inert power-on state. While these are technically command-line tools, they work with tooltypes as well. Any XMOS program that sets XRunXE as it's default tool with load up when double-clicked.

About adding DB connectors to the Xorro board, that is possible, but I would discourage it. Perhaps I am overly cautious, but anything I connect that comes outside of the case will be optically isolated. While this may be overkill, I think it a prudent choice. I have an SD card there now, no need for isolation. I have a MAX3232 chip, which is connected to the serial port inside the case. again, no need for isolation there. But anything that comes outside the case, for joysticks or whatever else, will be isolated on my machine, and I would suggest that others consider it as well.

Intersting thought.. the S/PDIF in and out connections are optical by design, so adding those should be as safe as anyone could hope.. a very easy way to get high bandwidth audio in and out of the Xena chip.

I am being called away..

LyleHaze

Interesting stuff and many thanks for your work on it

So you can load code in it? Can you use the official tools (f.e. on windows) to create it? Then you would still need a kind of chain to transfer it from PC to X1000/X5000 to test it there. Or propably more convenient develop and test the code on PC and then transfer it to Amiga and test it there. What XMOS chip is used? Perhaps better to use the same chip and configuration on PC for development and testing and then transfer it and test it on Amiga?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 09:24:07 AM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline DandyTopic starter

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #134 on: July 15, 2014, 09:32:27 AM »
Quote from: itix;768928


@Dandy

This is "classic" Amiga forum so most users here see it from "classic" view of point.



Hmmm - here at my end it tells me:
» Amiga.org » Amiga computer related discussion » Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion » Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro

No mention of "classic" - sorry to disappoint you...
All the best,

Dandy

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