Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Amiga Kit Amiga Store Iridium Banner AMIStore App Store A1200/A600 4xIDE Interface

AuthorTopic: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro  (Read 11378 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dandy

Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« on: July 04, 2014, 09:08:40 AM »
From the first day the Amiga One X 1000 equipped with XENA and Xorro had been announced, I was wondering what XENA and Xorro could be used for.

Some months ago I read someone offered a "XENA test board" with some flashing LEDs.

Was that all?
Or do new ideas exist how XENA/XORRO could be utilised?
Perhaps there even are new projects on the way concerning XENA/XORRO?

Initially there was talk about suppport of XENA/XORRO in AmigaOS 4.x - any news from that?

Don't get me wrong - I'm deeply interested in the A1X1k and XENA/XORRO - and I would now certainly have one - hadn't there arosen the need to spend the money to cure some of my health problems and to support my children.

But nevertheless I eagerly would like to learn more about XENA/XORRO that were hyped so much initially.

Given the former XENA-hype, it became suspiciously quite regarding this gimmick since the A1X1k hit the streets.

Perhaps Trevor reads this thread and can give us some inspiring insights and news on this...
All the best,

Dandy

Website maintained by me

If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him. He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him! (Albert Einstein)
 

Offline KimmoK

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2014, 09:55:46 AM »
To my understanding no-one has yet done anything productive with xena/xorro.
Two things released:
http://www.os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=utility/hardware/nemo_led_p31.lha
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=654

Development board to buy:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1135
(looks expensive, but if it is possible to bridge xcore to pcie with it, then it might have no alternative at the moment (on any platform), then again, what to use it for.)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 10:00:55 AM by KimmoK »
- KimmoK
// Windows will never catch us now.
// The multicolor AmigaFUTURE IS NOW !! :crazy:
 

Offline persia

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2014, 07:03:14 PM »
You can buy an XMOS board and play with it on a PC or Mac.  There are lot's of projects out there:  http://www.xcore.com/projects
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

What we\'re witnessing is the sad, lonely crowing of that last, doomed cock.
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2014, 01:19:43 AM »
@Dandy

I made two suggestions a while back.

1. The first was to use it for CNC machine control for manufacturing stuff (whether that's in a factory, or someone's garage). CNC machine control requires very precise timing and simutaneous control of multiple stepper motors. I've heard of trouble when using PCs for this task, where the OS mucks up the timing and causes manufacturing defects. This is with the CNC machine's stepper motors being controlled by bitbanging an old fashioned parallel port. Xena/Xorro would have a few advantages. Firstly, it should be able to drive multiple stepper motors simultaneously than a parallel port. Secondly, the CPU has very very low latency when sending data/commands (no drivers, USB controllers/buses or other things in the way). Finally, AmigaOS' multitasking should be able to meet the hard realtime requirements, even though it isn't a "realtime multitasking" OS.

2. The other suggestion that I had was to use it as a "super debug port." One problem that I have with debugging drivers, is that I have to output debug data to the serial port (if the graphics driver crashes, then you won't be able to see/save it to disk). The serial port is painfully slow when there's a lot of debug info. My idea would be to stream the debug data via Xena at high speed, and have it write that data to log files on a SD-card (a high-speed one, like you would use in a camera). After a crash, the debug data could be retrieved and read directly from the SD-card via Xena. This would both speed up the debugging, and eliminate the need for a serial cable and second PC.

Why not stream it to disk via the OS? Well, an OS crash could prevent the (often critical) last few bytes from making it onto the disk. With Xena handling the writes, every last byte will safely end up on the SD-card.

Why haven't I done either of these? I simply don't have the time right now.

Hans
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
 

Offline Thorham

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2014, 05:21:33 AM »
Quote from: Hans_;768227
Finally, AmigaOS' multitasking should be able to meet the hard realtime requirements
Don't count on it.

Quote from: Hans_;768227
even though it isn't a "realtime multitasking" OS.
It's indeed not, and therefore unreliable for certain real time applications.

Want to do real time 'stuff'? Use a real time OS and don't mess around (right tool for the job).
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2014, 11:00:40 AM »
@Thorham
Quote from: Thorham;768247
Don't count on it.

As far as non-realtime desktop OSes go, AmigaOS has a nice and simple scheduler, low switching times, and it's not going to suddenly go off and do maintenance tasks in the background... unless I tell it to. That does make meeting the timing requirements easier. Simply setting the task priority for my CNC task higher than most other tasks should do it.**


Quote from: Thorham;768247
It's indeed not, and therefore unreliable for certain real time applications.

Want to do real time 'stuff'? Use a real time OS and don't mess around (right tool for the job).

Thanks for stating the obvious. Now go and tell everyone who uses PCs for control purposes.*** Be sure to also remind them that for some real-time tasks they should ditch the OS altogether, and use a hard-coded loop...

Hans


** I guess that I should add disclaimers and qualifiers here to avoid another snarky reply. Whether or not it will reliably handle a real-time task does, of course, depend on the processing power required, what the timing tolerances are, etc.

*** In some cases, I think that the decision to use PCs instead of PLCs for control may have been influenced by the fact that the PC comes with Solitaire installed. :D
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
 

Offline Jeff

  • VIP / Donor - Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2003
  • Posts: 1380
  • Total likes: 0
Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2014, 07:05:14 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;768247
Don't count on it.


It's indeed not, and therefore unreliable for certain real time applications.

Want to do real time 'stuff'? Use a real time OS and don't mess around (right tool for the job).

I don't say much around here, but this IS NOT constructive criticism. Hans gives a LOT of time to what little is left of the Amiga community. Without his work we likely would have NO RadeonHD driver at all. Is a reply like this really going to help Hans, me, or anyone? Can and have you done better? Lets see some of your work!

How would you like to take a shot someone else's work?, Perhaps Trevor, Matt, Jens, -you get the idea. Please take it to the VxWorks forum and bash those guys for a while.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 07:12:30 PM by Jeff »
 

Offline Jeff

  • VIP / Donor - Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2003
  • Posts: 1380
  • Total likes: 0
Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2014, 07:23:29 PM »
Quote from: Hans_;768256
@Thorham

** I guess that I should add disclaimers and qualifiers here to avoid another snarky reply. Whether or not it will reliably handle a real-time task does, of course, depend on the processing power required, what the timing tolerances are, etc.

*** In some cases, I think that the decision to use PCs instead of PLCs for control may have been influenced by the fact that the PC comes with Solitaire installed. :D

This really sort of ticks me a little. Hans really SHOULDN'T need any disclaimers for "A" holes on this forum. He IS ON OUR TEAM PEOPLE. Perhaps a little genuflection instead.

Back under my rock now before the stones start arriving in spades...
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 07:27:37 PM by Jeff »
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2014, 09:58:38 PM »
@Jeff

Relax. Thorham found one item that he could nit-pick on. While he's busy lecturing me on the right way to do real-time computing, I know that there are many CNC machines out there that run on various versions of Windows (the desktop version, not some special real-time one). Mach 3 is software that you can use for this purpose. So, I have no doubt that a Xorro based CNC controller could work, and work well. I'd even dare to try run a full feedback control loop with sensors and everything.

Of course, he is right that this wouldn't be good enough for "certain real-time applications," but I already knew that.

Hans
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 10:03:46 PM by Hans_ »
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
 

Offline Kronos

  • Resident blue troll
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 4017
  • Total likes: 0
    • http://www.SteamDraw.de
Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2014, 10:17:58 PM »
Controlling a CNC machine suggest a commercial application, which pretty much rules out the use of an obscure piece of overpriced HW with no support in this field running an OS ill-fitted for the task at hand. Pointing out something that obvious is a much "constructive" as critism can get when the orginal idea is weak as this one.

Those CMOS chips are sure nice, but putting them onto a big mobo has very very limited reallife applications, all require much more in support/service than anything Amiga can offer.
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2014, 10:23:13 PM »
@Dandy

I just tracked down the developer wiki page for Xena/Xorro; it's here. I thought that I had seen more "getting started" info elsewhere, but I can't remember where. Maybe it was in the dev-tools archive. Anyway, on that wiki page Lyle posts the beginnings of a Xena/Xorro serial logger that connects to the serial port.

To see more done with Xena/Xorro, we need more people/developers to ask "what could I make this do?"

Of course, it would also help if we had more docs, tutorials, and a full dev-kit including compiler that ran on AmigaOS.

Hans
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
 

Offline Hans_

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2014, 10:42:51 PM »
Quote from: Kronos;768293
Controlling a CNC machine suggest a commercial application, which pretty much rules out the use of an obscure piece of overpriced HW with no support in this field running an OS ill-fitted for the task at hand. Pointing out something that obvious is a much "constructive" as critism can get when the orginal idea is weak as this one.

You seem to have missed the post directly above yours...

If I were running a commercial manufacturing plant, then I'd buy ready made machines that were designed for the task. However, hobbyists also use CNC machines, and even build them themselves. I have a set of stepper motors and (untested) motor controller boards (soldered by me) in a drawer that are intended for such a machine. That project's on hold right now (no time), but whether some other hardware/OS would be "better" in your eyes is irrelevant.

I could apply your reasoning to pretty much everything: Why would I use AmigaOS/MorphOS/AROS/C64 for X when Windows/Linux/Some-Industrial-PC already does it so well? X could be anything from web-browsing to gaming and beyond.

Why? Because I feel like it; I enjoy it; it's fun.

Hans
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 10:44:56 PM by Hans_ »
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
 

Offline amigadave

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2004
  • Posts: 3836
  • Total likes: 0
    • http://www.EfficientByDesign.org
Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2014, 11:35:00 PM »
Quote from: Hans_;768299
I could apply your reasoning to pretty much everything: Why would I use AmigaOS/MorphOS/AROS/C64 for X when Windows/Linux/Some-Industrial-PC already does it so well? X could be anything from web-browsing to gaming and beyond.

Why? Because I feel like it; I enjoy it; it's fun.

Hans

Exactly!

Why do so many people posting to Amiga related forums miss this point.  We use these systems because we like how they work.  To us, they are fun to use, and we want to expand what we can do on them and with them to new applications.

Even though Xena/Xorro has been highly criticized by many people who don't own an X1000, I am still confident that someone will come up with an interesting project that uses this one-of-a-kind interface for AmigaOS4.x.

Will it be something revolutionary and amazing that has never been done on any other platform?  Probably not, but it will be different in the way it is implemented, due to the unique interface that it is connected to on the X1000.  As long as it is useful to a few people, it will be interesting to me.

As a person who wants to improve my programming skills, and someone who is interested in computer controlled devices to make life easier and better, I am very interested in trying to invent ways to make my X1000 useful around my home.  I could find commercial products to do any number of those same tasks, but where is the fun in that?:)
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline Kronos

  • Resident blue troll
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 4017
  • Total likes: 0
    • http://www.SteamDraw.de
Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2014, 12:15:08 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;768300


Even though Xena/Xorro has been highly criticized by many people who don't own an X1000, I am still confident that someone will come up with an interesting project that uses this one-of-a-kind interface for AmigaOS4.x.
...... it will be different in the way it is implemented, due to the unique interface that it is connected to on the X1000.  


Sofar all proposed Xena projects fell in (atleast) on of these categories:

- brainfart (AGA emulation and so on)
- better be done by the CPU or GPU (anything involving number crunching)
- could be done as well with just the XMOS chip
- could be done just as well or better with a XMOS-chip on an USB-module (I'll put the CNC idea here)

And thats pretty much what all the critism has ever been about, noone has been able to really justify putting that chip there.
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline Thorham

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2014, 12:47:51 AM »
Quote from: Hans_;768256
As far as non-realtime desktop OSes go, AmigaOS has a nice and simple scheduler, low switching times, and it's not going to suddenly go off and do maintenance tasks in the background... unless I tell it to. That does make meeting the timing requirements easier. Simply setting the task priority for my CNC task higher than most other tasks should do it.
If you're running your own software, you could adapt it to turn the OS off. Don't know how easy that is with AOS4+ (same for turning it back on), but it's what I'd do with AOS1/2/3.

Anyway, my first post wasn't intended to be negative. Perhaps the tone was wrong?