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Author Topic: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro  (Read 34131 times)

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Offline itix

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2014, 03:48:30 PM »
Quote from: TrevorDick;768540
Thanks for that AmigaDave.

We have produced Xorro development boards (which are available) and are working on a couple of Xorro specific projects. We are also including an improved Xena/Xorro combination in the AMIGAone X5000, thanks to the specification and hard work of Lyle.

As for complaints, most of the comments appear to come from none AMIGAone X1000 owners?


Of course because 99% of Amiga community members are not X1K owners.

They say Amiga users are very smart.
My Amigas: A500, Mac Mini and PowerBook
 

Offline Niding

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #75 on: July 10, 2014, 04:53:56 PM »
Well, while Im not a X1000 user I do appriciate the drive those that develop the hardware and software around it got.

They have a vision, and have the drive to see it thru.
The most of us are just tag alongs that like to nitpick on other peoples accomplishment.

Tear people down to feel equal?

Constructive critizism is very important in a development process. But sometimes I feel like when people ssolie, Trevor, Lyle etc gets involved with comments, its either ignored or taken out of context/twisted.
 

Offline eliyahu

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2014, 05:15:06 PM »
Quote from: Niding;768649
Well, while Im not a X1000 user I do appriciate the drive those that develop the hardware and software around it got.

They have a vision, and have the drive to see it thru.
The most of us are just tag alongs that like to nitpick on other peoples accomplishment.

Tear people down to feel equal?

Constructive critizism is very important in a development process. But sometimes I feel like when people ssolie, Trevor, Lyle etc gets involved with comments, its either ignored or taken out of context/twisted.
thank you, well said. i couldn't agree more. :hammer:

-- eliyahu
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Offline Gulliver

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2014, 09:16:40 PM »
God help us all!

An atheist.
 

Offline hairy

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2014, 11:06:02 PM »
The main market niche for XMOS chips seems to be AVB digital audio.
And I see Audio Evolution is still on sale for OS4.

Why not just implement an AVB port? (and a driver for it)

Sure, nothing to be worried about for major PC DAW platforms, but still.
Since the chip is already on the board.
 

Offline amigadave

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #79 on: July 11, 2014, 12:07:29 AM »
The main complaint from most non-X1000 owners seems to be that the X1000 is too expensive for them to afford, and the addition of Xena/Xorro has added to this already too high price tag, even if the additional cost is minimal (according to A-Eon statements). Custom hardware in low quantities will always be expensive, compared to similar performance high volume mainstream products, that is just the way it will always be.

Then there is the complaint that nothing has been done so far by any of the X1000 owners, so the Xena/Xorro must be useless.  This argument does not hold water with me, as there are quite a few people using XMOS chips for hobby projects all over the world, so we know that the chip is useful in some applications.  

Lastly, many people complain that having the XMOS chip on the motherboard offers no improvement than using a stand alone XMOS development board via USB connection could provide, so why include it on the motherboard?  That statement may remain to be true for an unknown amount of time into the future, as we cannot predict what will be done with Xena/Xorro in the future, or if having it on the motherboard will be any different than using a stand alone development XMOS board via USB connection.  So, only time will tell if that argument is valid, or not.

One argument I don't agree with is the argument that it serves no purpose, as that is highly subjective.  Several X1000 owners are thinking of different ways in which to use the Xena/Xorro interface and processor, but have just not had the time to work on such projects yet, myself included.  People who don't own and have no desire to purchase an X1000 can easily say how uninteresting and useless a thing is, and for them, it is true, but for us owners of X1000 systems, that statement is not true.  Use and promote what you like to use, but why do a few of you who have no interest in the X1000, or X5000 feel so compelled to try to drag it down with your own opinions?  Do you see other users trying to do the same to your favorite platform or hardware?  I don't, or at least I don't see it very often.

I guess the main reason for this is that most people here want their own vision of a NG Amiga system, but they don't have the resources or will to make it happen, but feel entitled to criticize any other attempts for not fulfilling their standards, or dreams for the future.  If you are not interested in the direction that A-Eon has taken, look elsewhere and enjoy a different path, but why spend so much time and effort trying to discredit, defame, or tear down other peoples work, when those people are not so different than yourselves, and they try to do the best they can, even though their choices may not be the same as the ones you would make in their shoes?

Criticism is not a bad thing when it is constructive and helpful, but I see little of that type of criticism going on here in this thread.

Edit:  One last thing that I must comment on is the message previously in this thread that compares using Xena/Xorro on AmigaOS4.x with a slower tool set, when the same development work could be done better and faster on a PC using the free and excellent tools provided by XMOS.  That argument could be applied to anything we do on any of our Amiga or Amiga inspired systems.  I don't think there is one thing that can't be done better or faster on a PC, but here we all are still after all these years, using our Amiga and Amiga inspired systems.  We do it because we enjoy it!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 12:16:19 AM by amigadave »
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline A6000

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #80 on: July 11, 2014, 12:25:32 AM »
I have no axe to grind on this subject, but I must say that the prototyping board is far too expensive to encourage experimenters.
Maybe A-EON could put an XMOS chip on a ZORRO card to increase the number of potential experimenters.
 

Offline amigadave

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #81 on: July 11, 2014, 12:49:14 AM »
Quote from: A6000;768670
I have no axe to grind on this subject, but I must say that the prototyping board is far too expensive to encourage experimenters.
Maybe A-EON could put an XMOS chip on a ZORRO card to increase the number of potential experimenters.

Constructive criticism.  Thank you.  Not everyone will agree with your opinion that it is "far too expensive", but that does not change the fact that your criticism is constructive in nature and suggests a possible helpful alternative to increase interest in Amiga + XMOS projects, as not all Classic Amiga owners have added USB to their Amigas, so the option of using a standard XMOS USB development board is not available to them.  But remember, it is a waste of time to use XMOS chips with your Amiga, as you can do it faster and better connected to your PC. ;)

Edit:  Just to remind some of you who don't know me, I am the guy who promotes MorphOS at 5 out of the last 6 AmiWest shows, not an AmigaOS4.x "fanboy", or someone who defends everything that Hyperion does.  I just happen to also own an X1000, but my current favorite Amiga inspired platform is still MorphOS3.6 on my 17" 1.67GHz G4 PowerBook, over-clocked 1.5GHz G4 PowerMac, and Dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac (400MHz Efika too, but it has not been turned on in a couple of years).  I choose to support all flavors of the Amiga experience, and think it is a waste of time to tear any of them down.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 06:41:59 AM by amigadave »
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline A6000

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #82 on: July 11, 2014, 08:54:37 AM »
Curently, people seem to be having a hard time finding uses for the XENA that require the chip to be inside the Amiga(one) case, putting XENA plus a prototyping area on a ZORRO card is intended to encourage "inside the box" thinking.:)
It may be that classic Amigas need XENA more than the Amigaone does.:)
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #83 on: July 11, 2014, 09:04:06 AM »
Quote from: A6000;768706
Curently, people seem to be having a hard time finding uses for the XENA that require the chip to be inside the Amiga(one) case, putting XENA plus a prototyping area on a ZORRO card is intended to encourage "inside the box" thinking.:)
It may be that classic Amigas need XENA more than the Amigaone does.:)

classic Amigas need XENA? :confused:

XENA without official support by XMOS including the development tools is useless, on whatever form
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 09:21:05 AM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #84 on: July 11, 2014, 09:19:22 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;768674
Constructive criticism.  Thank you.  Not everyone will agree with your opinion that it is "far too expensive", but that does not change the fact that your criticism is constructive in nature and suggests a possible helpful alternative to increase interest in Amiga + XMOS projects, as not all Classic Amiga owners have added USB to their Amigas, so the option of using a standard XMOS USB development board is not available to them.  But remember, it is a waste of time to use XMOS chips with your Amiga, as you can do it faster and better connected to your PC. ;)

Edit:  Just to remind some of you who don't know me, I am the guy who promotes MorphOS at 5 out of the last 6 AmiWest shows, not an AmigaOS4.x "fanboy", or someone who defends everything that Hyperion does.  I just happen to also own an X1000, but my current favorite Amiga inspired platform is still MorphOS3.6 on my 17" 1.67GHz G4 PowerBook, over-clocked 1.5GHz G4 PowerMac, and Dual 2.7GHz G5 PowerMac (400MHz Efika too, but it has not been turned on in a couple of years).  I choose to support all flavors of the Amiga experience, and think it is a waste of time to tear any of them down.


Nobody doubts that there are use cases for the chips, otherwise they would neither be developed nor sold but I am wondering for what consumers can use them (and both X1000 and X5000 are consumer boards). If it would be sold to people using it professional then it might make more sense (if it would be full supported) but companies will certainly not buy it because it is too expensive, missing drivers and development environment for it, and no support nearby and thus problems if f.e. the system must be repaired. The last point alone would be a no-go for a company. So X series is for amigans only. Trevor integrates Xena again in the new X5000 despite the experiences with X1000 so he has either ideas people here not have or it is just a small gimmick to make the board special without any real use. But every gimmick makes it more expensive so I personal would have left it away if I realize that something is without real use but it is Trevors decision and the money of the people that buy the boards...
 

Offline A6000

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #85 on: July 11, 2014, 09:27:01 AM »
Quote
classic Amigas need XENA?

XENA without official support by XMOS including the development tools is useless, on whatever form

It's possible, it would be interesting to see what uses people could find for it in a classic Amiga.
Audio applications have already been suggested, XENA could give us a 16/24 bit sound card, speech recognition perhaps, can XENA implement an Ethernet port?, how about an SD card interface, USB port, it could drive a pair of ultrasonic transducers to give us similar functionality to that MS device whose name escapes me at the moment. EDIT: Kinnect.
XENA could give us a multifunction card that could evolve as people developed the software to implement new interfaces and ideas.
Software support would evolve faster if more people were trying to use XENA.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 09:42:13 AM by A6000 »
 

Offline KimmoK

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #86 on: July 11, 2014, 09:57:18 AM »
Quote from: A6000;768710
It's possible, it would be interesting to see what uses people could find for it in a classic Amiga.....

One core use case for xcore is to use it as a bridge chip. In that way it could enable limited classics to get interfaces to modern technology.

Another way would/could be a FPGA card for zorro & clockport.

(neither make sense businesswise, but that's no news on our niche)


For cheaper access to xena... it would be cool if every NG HW had two or more (shielded/protected) D9 ports that have xena I/O.
Then we could use legacy joysticks etc very easily + use those pins for instrumentation & home automation etc. without too much extra HW.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 10:01:10 AM by KimmoK »
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Offline OlafS3

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #87 on: July 11, 2014, 10:13:48 AM »
Quote from: A6000;768710
It's possible, it would be interesting to see what uses people could find for it in a classic Amiga.
Audio applications have already been suggested, XENA could give us a 16/24 bit sound card, speech recognition perhaps, can XENA implement an Ethernet port?, how about an SD card interface, USB port, it could drive a pair of ultrasonic transducers to give us similar functionality to that MS device whose name escapes me at the moment. EDIT: Kinnect.
XENA could give us a multifunction card that could evolve as people developed the software to implement new interfaces and ideas.
Software support would evolve faster if more people were trying to use XENA.

a soundcard? As I understand it XENA is a special chip to manipulate streams independent of the processor so you basically develop a program and upload it in the chip where it is executed independently and reacts on events but no interaction with the host system (if I am wrong then someone can explain it). So how do you want to program that soundcard then? In a FPGA it is different because everything is included and interacts with each other but XENA works different. You can automatically manipulate sound streams (perhaps convert them?) but it would be not a real soundcard.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #88 on: July 11, 2014, 10:28:32 AM »
Quote from: KimmoK;768714
One core use case for xcore is to use it as a bridge chip. In that way it could enable limited classics to get interfaces to modern technology.

Another way would/could be a FPGA card for zorro & clockport.

(neither make sense businesswise, but that's no news on our niche)


For cheaper access to xena... it would be cool if every NG HW had two or more (shielded/protected) D9 ports that have xena I/O.
Then we could use legacy joysticks etc very easily + use those pins for instrumentation & home automation etc. without too much extra HW.

I think the new accellerators by apollo team with LAN and modern output are already available in near future, I also read from a new extension for classics that make it possible to use USB mouse and joysticks at classics (the card converts signals automatically). Additionally the Apollo team is also planning for a standalone system in future and there is also FPGA Arcade. So I think the 68k community will be quiet well supported :-), even without XORRO

videos about the adapter(s):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSdt4vLx9CI&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_yfLJftOGM&feature=youtu.be

looks cool :-)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 10:36:47 AM by OlafS3 »
 

Offline itix

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Re: Amiga One X 1000 and Xena/Xorro
« Reply #89 from previous page: July 11, 2014, 10:55:27 AM »
Quote from: A6000;768710
It's possible, it would be interesting to see what uses people could find for it in a classic Amiga.
Audio applications have already been suggested, XENA could give us a 16/24 bit sound card, speech recognition perhaps, can XENA implement an Ethernet port?, how about an SD card interface, USB port, it could drive a pair of ultrasonic transducers to give us similar functionality to that MS device whose name escapes me at the moment. EDIT: Kinnect.
XENA could give us a multifunction card that could evolve as people developed the software to implement new interfaces and ideas.
Software support would evolve faster if more people were trying to use XENA.


But XENA is not that. It is just renamed XMOS chip. XMOS chip itself is capable to do many tasks and projects you suggested are more or less possible. But it would be just piece of electronics.

Instead of XMOS chip (XENA) also FPGA could be used or off the shelf network interface chips. They are relatively cheap, was it XMOS, FPGA or some other chip. But designing Amiga expansion card with any chip is expensive. You need good knowledge of Amiga hardware (which kind of knowledge is fading) and you need someone to write drivers so your favorite TCP/IP stack can use your new ethernet card.

It is also reason why there are no Xena applications for X1000. It is easier to buy supported sound card from ebay than design one yourself from the scratch including drivers and electronics work. It could be fun but those who find it fun are rare.
My Amigas: A500, Mac Mini and PowerBook