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Author Topic: Comparing Apples and Amigas  (Read 7670 times)

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Offline A6000Topic starter

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Comparing Apples and Amigas
« on: June 28, 2014, 11:08:35 AM »
The Apple macintosh started with 68k processors, changed to PPC and are now using X86, they have also used several operating systems, yet the community prospers, so why is it so hard for the Amiga community to get along with Amiga users who have chosen to use slightly different hardware or OS variants?
 

Offline Astral

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Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2014, 12:21:54 PM »
Because there is no one true ultimate Amiga hierarchy to dictate to the world exactly what an Amiga is through an actual continued retailed product in which they have the rights to solely monopolise and develop as they wish. Instead all that we are left is rehashed, chopped and changed, and beaten senseless versions of what used to be - in 3125 different versions of it. And then, because opinions are like arseholes and everyone has one, and because everyone thinks theirs doesn't stink, they let the internet know about all the perfections and imperfections of all the current flavours of what is available. People then "discuss" these opinions.

Good enough explanation?
 

Offline A6000Topic starter

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Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2014, 12:36:05 PM »
But if Commodore had not gone under, it would have switched to Hombre using a PA 7150 chip and AmigaOS 4, so what is so wrong about what A-EON has done? (except the price).
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2014, 12:42:40 PM »
Nothing at all.
Our current NG solutions probably have better compatibility than an Hombre based Amiga would have had.
But, Amiga users are a notoriously contentious bunch.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline Rob

Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2014, 12:50:26 PM »
@A6000

People are very tribal.  They like to attack other people's totems while holding there own above criticism.
 

Offline biggun

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Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2014, 01:01:48 PM »
Quote from: A6000;767769
But if Commodore had not gone under, it would have switched to Hombre using a PA 7150 chip


But wasn't the plan, to use the Hombre just for a new game console call it "CD33".
Which was a side project and unrelated to AMIGA?

Wasn't the plan for AMIGA was to bring out AAA?

Offline Astral

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Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2014, 01:06:52 PM »
Quote from: A6000;767769
But if Commodore had not gone under, it would have switched to Hombre using a PA 7150 chip and AmigaOS 4, so what is so wrong about what A-EON has done? (except the price).


Nothing is wrong with what A-Eon has done. Wrong is an opinion.

To go back to your original question and my original answer. Because now there is so many variations available of what is now "Amiga", along with that comes so many different opinions. And with the internet now allowing everybodies opinion to become easily known, they do just that. And people read and respond. That is what causes "discussions" on it all.

But, if there was one. And one only. And no more than one. And I mean ONE only company that completely owned E V E R Y T H I N G that is Amiga, and THEY dictated what an Amiga is to the world, there would probably be much less "discussion". Because there would only be one "Amiga". And not 3152 incarnations to compare and "discuss".

Make sense?
 

Offline A6000Topic starter

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Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2014, 01:23:23 PM »
Quote from: biggun;767777
But wasn't the plan, to use the Hombre just for a new game console call it "CD33".
Which was a side project and unrelated to AMIGA?

Wasn't the plan for AMIGA was to bring out AAA?

From what I have read, Commodore had money troubles and delayed development of AAA until it was practically too late, they then realised it was too late, cancelled AAA and started on Hombre, which was also too late and the company folded.
If Commodore had better management they would have brought out a AAA based Amiga at the right time and continued selling Amigas, they did licence the Z8001 processor for use in another aborted project so they could have licenced the 680x0 and made it part of future chipsets.
It is amazing how these management types believe they are worth million dollar paychecks with absolutely no evidence to back up their demands.
 

Offline A6000Topic starter

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Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2014, 01:28:32 PM »
Quote from: Astral;767778
Nothing is wrong with what A-Eon has done. Wrong is an opinion.

To go back to your original question and my original answer. Because now there is so many variations available of what is now "Amiga", along with that comes so many different opinions. And with the internet now allowing everybodies opinion to become easily known, they do just that. And people read and respond. That is what causes "discussions" on it all.

But, if there was one. And one only. And no more than one. And I mean ONE only company that completely owned E V E R Y T H I N G that is Amiga, and THEY dictated what an Amiga is to the world, there would probably be much less "discussion". Because there would only be one "Amiga". And not 3152 incarnations to compare and "discuss".

Make sense?

My opening post was really asking "if Apple owners can accept the changes to their platform, why can't Amiga users do the same".

There is no single company, but we should be able to deal with that and move on as a fairly united community.

EDIT, There is no single company in the PC market either.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2014, 01:39:35 PM »
Quote from: A6000;767779
From what I have read, Commodore had money troubles and delayed development of AAA until it was practically too late, they then realised it was too late, cancelled AAA and started on Hombre, which was also too late and the company folded.
If Commodore had better management they would have brought out a AAA based Amiga at the right time and continued selling Amigas, they did licence the Z8001 processor for use in another aborted project so they could have licenced the 680x0 and made it part of future chipsets.
It is amazing how these management types believe they are worth million dollar paychecks with absolutely no evidence to back up their demands.


the basic difference between the apple community and the amiga community was that there was always apple as company leading the development and thus forcing the developer and user to go with them. Would Commodore have survived the same would have been the case for amiga. There would some form of AmigaOS (however it today would look like), no MorphOS or AROS. 68k would propably only existing as emulation (if ever) because they would have changed the hardware. Chipsets propably would not exist anymore. It would be a different machine today. But that did not happen, AROS is the oldest OS, MorphOS was started in the late 90s, there were the last 68k updates around 2000. That was the first split in NG and 68k. Then AmigaInc. decided to do their own "official" OS and the PPC platform started to divide too. I think what I read was that at the beginning both AmigaOS and MorphOS were running on classic hardware supporting PPC accellerators but both supporting different standards. I read discussions that this would destroy the last remainders of the market. Then arguments between Ben H. and MorphOS teams started and escalated with Ben H. claiming that MorphOS (and AROS) are illegal using 3.1. sources. And since then we have our current situation. All are using different (closed) standards and different components and are different on API level. But it is how it is.

When I have summarized something wrong be free to correct me. That is what i read in different sources.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2014, 01:40:27 PM »
Quote from: A6000;767780
My opening post was really asking "if Apple owners can accept the changes to their platform, why can't Amiga users do the same".

There is no single company, but we should be able to deal with that and move on as a fairly united community.

EDIT, There is no single company in the PC market either.


On PC you have windows dominating the market
 

Offline Kesa

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Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2014, 01:42:26 PM »
In my opinion the reason why Apple users accept changes is because they are passive consumers. Steve Jobs told them what they want and they accepted it. Amigan's are a more educated bunch and don't fall for such baloney ;)
Even my cat doesn\'t like me.
 

Offline A6000Topic starter

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Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2014, 01:57:25 PM »
Is 68k emulation on NG Amigas good enough to create a virtual 68k platform that is compatible with classic machines to the extent of running classic software, only faster?
Is it possible that the various APIs can evolve into a unified API across all Amigas or are we stuck with systems that will never be compatible.
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2014, 02:19:58 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;767781
the basic difference between the apple community and the amiga community was that there was always apple as company leading the development and thus forcing the developer and user to go with them. Would Commodore have survived the same would have been the case for amiga. There would some form of AmigaOS (however it today would look like), no MorphOS or AROS. 68k would propably only existing as emulation (if ever) because they would have changed the hardware. Chipsets propably would not exist anymore. It would be a different machine today. But that did not happen, AROS is the oldest OS, MorphOS was started in the late 90s, there were the last 68k updates around 2000. That was the first split in NG and 68k. Then AmigaInc. decided to do their own "official" OS and the PPC platform started to divide too. I think what I read was that at the beginning both AmigaOS and MorphOS were running on classic hardware supporting PPC accellerators but both supporting different standards. I read discussions that this would destroy the last remainders of the market. Then arguments between Ben H. and MorphOS teams started and escalated with Ben H. claiming that MorphOS (and AROS) are illegal using 3.1. sources. And since then we have our current situation. All are using different (closed) standards and different components and are different on API level. But it is how it is.

When I have summarized something wrong be free to correct me. That is what i read in different sources.

IMO it came down to one thing-they all wanted to make the biggest buck...and it started with Amiga International not wanting to pay what 3rd parties wanted to paid for having their software included in OS 3.5- MUI I believe was the first choice GUI, but deemed too expensive by Amiga Tech, so we got Reaction (a tarted up Class Act).  The included TCP stack apparantly wasn't paid as agreed, but included anyway.  

Then H&P claimed they didn't get paid in full for OS 3.9 so that was another dispute.

phase5 were the only ones that actually got a PPC working on the Amiga, and wanted control of both the hardware and the software.  To me it looked like H&P saw it as a Microsoft opportunity-bugger the hardware, its the software that matters and they wanted to be the ones to control the PPC OS.  Hence the first split on the ppc market.

If they actually worked together and pooled their resources then things may have been better-but in the end it was all about MONEY and GREED.  I wonder if any of them have actually made anywhere near enough money to at least cover their time.  I doubt it.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: Comparing Apples and Amigas
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2014, 02:24:02 PM »
Quote from: A6000;767786
Is 68k emulation on NG Amigas good enough to create a virtual 68k platform that is compatible with classic machines to the extent of running classic software, only faster?
Is it possible that the various APIs can evolve into a unified API across all Amigas or are we stuck with systems that will never be compatible.


A unified API? I believe not. For that the systems are already too different. And all camps have too big EGOs. And all platforms have developed in different directions.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 02:30:45 PM by OlafS3 »