ARM or x86 with FPGA emulator

[ppcamiga1]

Clone-A with powerpc is exactly what is needed for Amiga community.

Really a pity that Jens to quickly gave up on that idea.

Not emulated 68k with AGA plus not emulated powerpc it would be really interesting.

[wawrzon]

Clone-A with powerpc is exactly what is needed for Amiga community.

its just your opinion. doesnt look that there are that many who back you up.

Really a pity that Jens to quickly gave up on that idea.

as you may have read from the link i  have posted, he has his reasons. he said he will only consider it if someone will pay the whole development up front, now its up to you. making demands is easy.

[Iggy]

Clone-A with powerpc is exactly what is needed for Amiga community.

Really a pity that Jens to quickly gave up on that idea.

Not emulated 68k with AGA plus not emulated powerpc it would be really interesting.

Well, you have one naysayer.
I like the idea.

[wawrzon]

Well, you have one naysayer.

you mean jens? and how do we call people who now and then pop up with all kinds of proposals what others could do, to please them?

I like the idea.

what can i say, guys.. start developing. because providing results is a part that actually convinces people, y know.

[matthey]

its just your opinion. doesnt look that there are that many who back you up.

Most of the PowerPC fans are on other web sites waiting for cheap PowerPC hardware and SMP to lead them to the promised land. Anyone creating new PowerPC hardware had better ask (pay) for support before going too far. Another option is to reverse engineer hack and patch WOS more than it already it is. The best option, and the open option these PowerPC fans don't realize they need yet, is to improve AROS PPC. That is what would make PPC+fpga Amiga custom chip projects feasible. Without it, these projects are probably dead in the water and will never gain momentum (look at the UltimatePPC accelerator). If AROS PPC is improved enough, it could surpass AmigaOS 4 and MOS drawing their users into one open (and cheaper) PowerPC Amiga platform. This would in turn create demand for more PowerPC hardware. Now that I have given away the secret to new cheaper PowerPC hardware, maybe they will jump over to the AROS web site and demand new PowerPC development like they are demanding new PowerPC hardware here .

[wawrzon]

i beg to differ, aros ppc is as it seems almost as obsolete as 68k. as example aros mesa is about to be working at least software wise, lets call it "wrong colors stuff". aros maintainer, deadwood, has understandibly no much motivation to seek endian dependencies within the genuine engine source. i have had a brief contact with our ppc linux expert (xeno) about the issue, and he said, the interest to fix endianness issues in mesa, which concerns both 68k and ppc, is limited to tell the least. so as much as i hate it to be the case, as 68k fan, big endian platforms ppc and 68k, are fading together into the obscurity as we look at it.

[Iggy]

i beg to differ, aros ppc is as it seems almost as obsolete as 68k. as example aros mesa is about to be working at least software wise, lets call it "wrong colors stuff". aros maintainer, deadwood, has understandibly no much motivation to seek endian dependencies within the genuine engine source. i have had a brief contact with our ppc linux expert (xeno) about the issue, and he said, the interest to fix endianness issues in mesa, which concerns both 68k and ppc, is limited to tell the least. so as much as i hate it to be the case, as 68k fan, big endian platforms ppc and 68k, are fading together into the obscurity as we look at it.

Sure the 68K is dead, but there are enough of them that I've got a large stock I am using on a couple of projects.

And not to counter your "expert" opinion, but Power development is ongoing.
Freescale has developed new 64 bit PPC cores, and IBM is opening up Power 8 development.
Power processors will be here for some time to come.

And, of course, if I really want to invest in an alternate with the right "endianess" there is always ARM which looks to have a bright future.

An Amiga/MorphOS solution with a 64 bit AMD ARM processor with built-in AMD/ATI graphics would suit me fine.

[matthey]

i beg to differ, aros ppc is as it seems almost as obsolete as 68k. as example aros mesa is about to be working at least software wise, lets call it "wrong colors stuff". aros maintainer, deadwood, has understandibly no much motivation to seek endian dependencies within the genuine engine source. i have had a brief contact with our ppc linux expert (xeno) about the issue, and he said, the interest to fix endianness issues in mesa, which concerns both 68k and ppc, is limited to tell the least. so as much as i hate it to be the case, as 68k fan, big endian platforms ppc and 68k, are fading together into the obscurity as we look at it.

I'm aware that AROS PPC is the deadest branch of AROS. I'm also aware that developing AROS PPC would help to fix big endian bugs. I'm also aware that AROS PPC gaining in popularity would unify the Amiga API. I also prefer 68k over PPC but developing AROS PPC would help the Amiga so I encourage it's support. Neither the 68k or PPC path are necessarily the correct or easiest choices. PPC seems to be slowly dieing and the 68k is old and little developed (it can be emulated easier on other processors though). ARM makes the most sense for low end power efficient processors and x86_64 makes the most sense for affordable performance processors.

And, of course, if I really want to invest in an alternate with the right "endianess" there is always ARM which looks to have a bright future.

An Amiga/MorphOS solution with a 64 bit AMD ARM processor with built-in AMD/ATI graphics would suit me fine.

ARM is natively little endian. It can switch to big endian mode but there are disadvantages like with the PPC switched to little endian mode. I don't like the bi-endian processor concept that changes endianess with a control bit. I prefer instructions or MMU mappings for converting the endianess.

[Iggy]

ARM is natively little endian. It can switch to big endian mode but there are disadvantages like with the PPC switched to little endian mode. I don't like the bi-endian processor concept that changes endianess with a control bit. I prefer instructions or MMU mappings for converting the endianess.

Right now, I'd prefer to keep developing PPC based systems.
We have them, new systems are about to be introduced, and there are other processors that could be explored.
And its basically our ISA to exploit.
Outside of Linux, there are few other alternative OS' for this ISA.
Amiga OS4 and MorphOS run on PPCs and AROS can too.

We have a software base we can expand from NOW.
And 68K software can run pretty seamlessly on a PPC.
If you doubt me, check out a MorphOS or AOS4 demo.

And with further advances (like the FPGA we've mentioned), Amiga code could run even better.

These approaches are considerably better than relying solely on UAE, they can run software faster AND support continued development under the same API.

Anyone who is fixated on the 68K needs to investigate further.

Development of 68K software can still be carried out (and is) on NG platforms and it can be run concurrently with native applications that can interact with that code as intended in our older OS'.

I don't mean to sound too evangelical.
But I was a 68K system integrator and developer and I LOVE having this tool in my hands.

[ElPolloDiabl]

I would suggest that the features of a PowerPC Amiga is lacking. It can run a lot of 68k programs, others have to use emulation. Really that is unfinished. So you have to go to the bother of having more than one machine/set up.

Maybe when the current projects are finished someone will try a new PowerPC card.

[Fats]

We have a software base we can expand from NOW.
And 68K software can run pretty seamlessly on a PPC.
If you doubt me, check out a MorphOS or AOS4 demo.

Next to endianess you also have the packing of data types in a C struct. The native packing of PPC and m68k is different so the seamless running of m68k on PPC is only possible because special non-PPC native packing is done on data structs that are to be used by legacy m68k software on PPC.
On AROS we preferred efficiency over backwards compatibility and at the time PPC AROS was live we decided to always use native struct packing. This means m68k software does only run under emulation on AROS PPC.
Although different AROS devs have different opinions I still stand by this choice. People who want a PPC Amiga-like OS with seamless running of m68k software can already use MorphOS or AOS4.
I do think emulation of m68k in AROS can be more integrated using a system like on Linux now: if you want to run 32-bit programs on a 64-bit system you need the 32-bit libraries used by that program. For the rest the program will show up as any other program. So to run m68k on a AROS with another CPU you need the AROS m68k libs but the GUI will be shown next to native programs, DOS mounts are shared, clipboard is shared etc.

[Iggy]

Next to endianess you also have the packing of data types in a C struct. The native packing of PPC and m68k is different so the seamless running of m68k on PPC is only possible because special non-PPC native packing is done on data structs that are to be used by legacy m68k software on PPC.
On AROS we preferred efficiency over backwards compatibility and at the time PPC AROS was live we decided to always use native struct packing. This means m68k software does only run under emulation on AROS PPC.
Although different AROS devs have different opinions I still stand by this choice. People who want a PPC Amiga-like OS with seamless running of m68k software can already use MorphOS or AOS4.
I do think emulation of m68k in AROS can be more integrated using a system like on Linux now: if you want to run 32-bit programs on a 64-bit system you need the 32-bit libraries used by that program. For the rest the program will show up as any other program. So to run m68k on a AROS with another CPU you need the AROS m68k libs but the GUI will be shown next to native programs, DOS mounts are shared, clipboard is shared etc.

You'll note Staf, that I didn't include AROS in my comment.
However, I wasn't aware that using the AROS m68k libs was an option.
Pretty cool.

[Fats]

You'll note Staf, that I didn't include AROS in my comment.

My reaction was also partly to matthey who was lobbying for using AROS PPC as the mother of all Amiga-like OSes.

However, I wasn't aware that using the AROS m68k libs was an option.
Pretty cool.

It's an option if somebody implements it; unfortunately it is not ATM.

greets,
Staf.

[matthey]

My reaction was also partly to matthey who was lobbying for using AROS PPC as the mother of all Amiga-like OSes.

That should probably read "My reaction was also partly to matthey who was lobbying for using AROS PPC as the mother of all PPC Amiga-like operating systems." It's a minor change but important difference .

[Iggy]

And, of course, as a fanatical MorphOS user I'd have to say that we already have "the mother of all PPC Amiga-like operating systems" (which, btw, contains some AROS derived components).

[psxphill]

People who want a PPC Amiga-like OS with seamless running of m68k software can already use MorphOS or AOS4.

MorphOS and AOS4 aren't equivalent though. Doesn't the different padding also mean that PPC software that runs on MorphOS or AOS4 can't ever be compatible with AROS either?
 
It seems that decision marginalises AROS PPC.