Natami started and stopped again

[OlafS3]

The price of the OS is not that bad considering all the updates that I have gotten for that price.



It was not free when it came first came out, I belive it was priced around the same value as a AmigaONE-XE, when it came out.

Shore you can argue that X1000 hardware is expective, but we don't see it that way, we like to there to be hardware in the future as well, and the only way to do that is support the people who make hardware, that goes for any hardware being made, that also includes NatAMI, MiniMigs, and hardware upgrades for classic Amiga computers.

The fact that El-Box and INDIVIDUAL COMPUTERS, exists today is mostly down to fact that some one buys there products. It does not matter if its classic Amiga we are taking about or NG, in this context. I'm happy Amiga is as live as it is today, I'm happy I can go and buy new stuff from AmigaKIT, and I hope this is will be possible in the future as well.

I see you have donated to support Amiga.org, I'm shore you don't disagree with me.

I have only a problem with your view 68=old/retro and X1000 is new/modern. In fact the FPGA solutions that will be used are very modern (to be precise used in the industry). And Aros 68k includes a number of patches already too, in fact I have not added very much in my distribution. Most changes are desktop-related (Magellan) and replacing Zune with MUI 3.8. So your black/white picture is not true anymore. And in the last three years I really got a good overview of the software base and 68k is by far the biggest (and I do not talk about commercial software that is almost not existing on NG). There are lots of libraries written in assembler for gaming and graphics that are long forgotten and I hope to make them known again. And the huge number of compilers available that not exist as PPC native versions. All successor OSs tried to give life back by making it easier to port applications and games, but after now 20 years (or 10 years MorphOS/AmigaOS) we see that this vastly failed. A new generation of 68k devices directly build on the 68k base offer a much higher chance. That does not mean that people cannot have their fun with their X1000 or used Macs but I prefer a different route and think the "we are the innovative and modern" and there are the "retros, just playing old games" attitude totally wrong.

[OlafS3]

Comparing Natami, or any FPGA Amiga clone, to the X1000 and AmigaOS4.1.6, or MorphOS3.6, or the latest version of any of the AROS forks, is about as useful as comparing the C64 to Windows 8 running on the latest i7 CPU.  Trying to convince the users of any of these hobby platforms that they are wasting their time and that the platform they have chosen to spend their money and time supporting, and that they enjoy using and maybe developing new or ported software for, is also a waste of time. can very often lead to conflicts in these forums, when one member insults the intelligence, or sanity for another's choice of hobby/retro platform.

It would be better to just stick to the thread topic and leave out comments that attack any other platform choices.  We have read those attacking comments hundreds of times over and over again anyway, so why bother repeating them again.  We all know that any of the currently available Amiga and Amiga inspired OSes and hardware that they run on are far removed from any mainstream platforms, but most of us use one or more of these Amiga and/or Amiga inspired platforms, because we like to use them.

Instead, I suggest that members choose to support the Amiga and Amiga inspired platforms of their choice(s) by pointing out the positive points for each of those platforms, but do it in appropriate threads, or in a way that ties such information to any thread they are posting the information into.

Just a suggestion on how to contribute in a positive way, instead of negative alternatives.

a small correction... Aros 68k (that is base of Aros Vision) is using the newest Aros fork. It is inheriting all the features of Aros (and sometimes also its errors)

[LiveForIt]

I have only a problem with your view 68=old/retro and X1000 is new/modern. In fact the FPGA solutions that will be used are very modern (to be precise used in the industry).

A FPGA can be programmed to do different things, but if you program it to be a Amiga1200 it is a Amiga1200, shore you can add some new features. And sure you can make a better Amiga then what existed back then, but even so you can't make better graphic card then what ATI have for sale.

But the NatAMI is not for people like me who wants a a new ATI graphic card, instead of some kind of AGA graphics.

I think we might be drifting a bit off topic here, I hope no one minds.

the software base and 68k is by far the biggest (and I do not talk about commercial software...

That might be, when I first got my AmigaONE-XE, I spent days digging into old Amiga Cover CD's and Disks.

If we talk about internet software, besides the more known Aweb/IBrowse/Voyager, there is few BBS and News Group reader programs, this days I wont dream of using today.

It might well be that there are some gems I don't know about as I whet from Amiga500 to AmigaONE-XE, and skipped, only used A1200 when vising one of my friends. And he did not have internet connection at the time.

I know of one Arexx RSS/Podcast reader I like to get working gain, the trick is to install the correct versions of MUI classes or else it does not run, I have pretty much given up on it. (Anyway it might be this is a potential future software project for me, so I don't mind)

The point being there is lot of crap out there, and while there might be few gems its really hard to find this, when you do find some thing it is normally a disappointment because software is not exactly bug free, as you might think.

Shore there are some programs that are not totally outdated.

There are lots of libraries written in assembler for gaming and graphics that are long forgotten and I hope to make them known again.

Looking foreword to knowing more about this.

And the huge number of compilers available that not exist as PPC native versions.

There is a few compilers that don't work anymore, but most software is written in C, sure there might nice to have a good Pascal compiler, but then again no one writes programs in Pascal anymore. Looking back at things I made in AMOS there is absolutely nothing I like to bring back to life. (Even if was possible to bring back something, I really hate having to work with a program language that is not well structured today.) The start menu Excalibur started its life as a BlitzBasic2 program, and was rewritten for GCC, I'm not shore it be supporting Composition and window transparency if was not ported from BlitzBasic2 to GCC, AsmOne might not work, but VBCC 680x0 assembler and linker do, there is nothing I really miss.

we see that this vastly failed.

most of the software is not open source, reverse engineering is not that easy, and writing some thing that looks like some thing old, seams meaning less as more then likely it does make sense to do it the same way as in 80's and 90's.

But on the bright side, there as been a few nice ports, AWeb, Dopus4, Opus5 and Personal Paint, Yam, SimpleMail, AmigaAMP. It maybe not a lot but many of this programs are nice programs.

There are slot of new programs that kind fills the gap.

I can also easy admit that there are some 68k programs that do work.

In any case most of big 68k software base is mix some good and lots of not so good programs, navigating and finding some thing that is worth using is not always easy, if you don't know what your looking for.

For the people how use classic MacOS, there is system7today.com, some thing like that might be nice idea for AmigaOS3.x, to help guide people to good gems.

[OlafS3]

A FPGA can be programmed to do different things, but if you program it to be a Amiga1200 it is a Amiga1200, shore you can add some new features. And sure you can make a better Amiga then what existed back then, but even so you can't make better graphic card then what ATI have for sale.

But the NatAMI is not for people like me who wants a a new ATI graphic card, instead of some kind of AGA graphics.

I think we might be drifting a bit off topic here, I hope no one minds.



That might be, when I first got my AmigaONE-XE, I spent days digging into old Amiga Cover CD's and Disks.

If we talk about internet software, besides the more known Aweb/IBrowse/Voyager, there is few BBS and News Group reader programs, this days I wont dream of using today.

It might well be that there are some gems I don't know about as I whet from Amiga500 to AmigaONE-XE, and skipped, only used A1200 when vising one of my friends. And he did not have internet connection at the time.

I know of one Arexx RSS/Podcast reader I like to get working gain, the trick is to install the correct versions of MUI classes or else it does not run, I have pretty much given up on it. (Anyway it might be this is a potential future software project for me, so I don't mind)

The point being there is lot of crap out there, and while there might be few gems its really hard to find this, when you do find some thing it is normally a disappointment because software is not exactly bug free, as you might think.

Shore there are some programs that are not totally outdated.



Looking foreword to knowing more about this.



There is a few compilers that don't work anymore, but most software is written in C, sure there might nice to have a good Pascal compiler, but then again no one writes programs in Pascal anymore. Looking back at things I made in AMOS there is absolutely nothing I like to bring back to life. (Even if was possible to bring back something, I really hate having to work with a program language that is not well structured today.) The start menu Excalibur started its life as a BlitzBasic2 program, and was rewritten for GCC, I'm not shore it be supporting Composition and window transparency if was not ported from BlitzBasic2 to GCC, AsmOne might not work, but VBCC 680x0 assembler and linker do, there is nothing I really miss.



most of the software is not open source, reverse engineering is not that easy, and writing some thing that looks like some thing old, seams meaning less as more then likely it does make sense to do it the same way as in 80's and 90's.

But on the bright side, there as been a few nice ports, AWeb, Dopus4, Opus5 and Personal Paint, Yam, SimpleMail, AmigaAMP. It maybe not a lot but many of this programs are nice programs.

There are slot of new programs that kind fills the gap.

I can also easy admit that there are some 68k programs that do work.

In any case most of big 68k software base is mix some good and lots of not so good programs, navigating and finding some thing that is worth using is not always easy, if you don't know what your looking for.

For the people how use classic MacOS, there is system7today.com, some thing like that might be nice idea for AmigaOS3.x, to help guide people to good gems.

Examples are Raystorm and game master system (two of many) that come to my mind and I recently added to Aros Vision. There are many more (both with years of work invested in it).

And Pascal is just one example, there are different versions of Amiga-E, Oberon, Modula, several Basic-Compilers and even when using AMOS there are plenty of AMOS extensions available. C is available too, I think I saw a official page for Actek-C somewhere and there are VBCC, Dice and of course you still get commercial or former commercial compilers on ebay (bought lots of software there in the past).

http://aminet.net/package/dev/misc/gms_dev
http://aminet.net/package/gfx/3d/raystorm_881

[alphadec]

The remainders of the Natami-Team is basically the team behind apollo core.

When can we see some pictures of the apollo core boards. ?

[amigadave]

As for OS4, then I agree with you that the costs is too much.  I run it on a Pegasos II but your only option if you don't want second hand hardware seems to be the $3000 X1000 or various models of low performing SAM mobos.

Project Moana should have been a proper release from Hyperion years ago.

I agree totally, but ......................

I don't remember who started the work on project Moana.  Seems that I read it might have been the guys at ACube, or it might have been someone else, but I don't think it was Hyperion's developers.  Who ever it was, they got it to boot, but didn't go any further with driver development for Mac hardware.  I suppose you can ask the MorphOS Dev. Team about how hard it was (and still is) for them to write all the drivers to handle Mac hardware, as there is no documentation for any of the Mac hardware available freely, outside of Apple.

I agree that completing project Moana would have been great for AmigaOS4.x users.  I think it would have converted many more AmigaOS3.x users, if they had been able to purchase cheap but high performance used G4 Mac hardware to run AmigaOS4.x, and I don't really understand why Hyperion has not pursued this idea by dedicating some of their programming resources to complete a port of AmigaOS4.x to PPC Mac hardware, so they could increase the size of their user base.  Of course there are many Classic Amiga users who will never convert to any NG Amiga platform, but I think that there are many who watch what is going on with AmigaOS4.x that would try it out if it were available on $100 to $300 used hardware and the OS price were around $50 to $100 per license.

In my opinion, each day that Hyperion wastes in not porting AmigaOS4.x to some kind of cheaper hardware that most Classic Amiga users can afford, is another day where more users leave the Amiga community behind completely.  We were once a community of 10's of thousands, and now we are only a few thousand (I am counting all people in our combined community of Classic, OS4, MorphOS, Emulation, FPGA clones, & AROS), and if the decline in number of users is not reversed soon, we will only have a few hundred die hard users left in the near future.  Not that such a port of AmigaOS4.x to cheap Mac PPC hardware will make much of a difference, but it certainly won't hurt and it might slow the exodus of users who finally give up on anything Amiga related.

Some will say that if any Classic users wanted a NG Amiga system that runs on PPC Mac hardware, they would have already started using MorphOS.  That is true for some users, but unfortunately, there are a few users in the MorphOS community that have behaved in a way that has "turned off" some of the Classic Amiga users so much so, that no matter how good MorphOS becomes, they will never choose to use it as an alternative to Classic AmigaOS, but they might consider moving to AmigaOS4.x.  I say this from a perspective of a "die hard" MorphOS user and promoter.  But I also use and hope for the success of AmigaOS4.x, which is why I would wish for them to complete the Moana project and get some new users and interest.

It is a real shame that the Natami team fell apart after one or two of its members pissed off the man with the original idea, who has since gone into hiding and is now working alone on his ideas, probably to be released under a different name (if he is ever able to complete any of it).  The Natami project captured the imagination of a large segment of our community (including myself) and I think that it could have generated a large amount of enthusiasm and renewed programming interest on 68k Amiga.  Hopefully the Apollo boards will have a similar effect and besides being just FPGA accelerators, they will be expanded some time in the future, to include much of what the Natami had aimed for.

[wawrzon]

, but unfortunately, there are a few users in the MorphOS community that have behaved in a way that has "turned off" some of the Classic Amiga users

what i frankly am not sure about is when on an amiga site amiga is considered equal to c64 and its users as subject to being "converted"..

[guest11527]

MorphOS is very much worth the price.

If you want to get my two cents: It's probably not more worth than the two cents I just gave you... The reason is quite simple: There is no reasonably modern and reasonably large software library, and there is no reasonable hardware either. Most certainly, you can say the same for Os 4.0, which is basically the reason why I do not care much about either. Sorry for that, but that's simply as it is. For anything modern, I have Linux. For anything old, I have the 68K. But I have no use of an Operating system for exotic hardware and no software basis.  

I registered MorphOS v3.1 for 100 quid and then received FIVE major updates free of charge to bring me up to v3.6 currently.

I will continue to receive free updates to major versions of the 3.x series.

What other OS give you that much?

Linux. Yes, really. You pay nothing, you get updates forever, it runs on modern hardware, and has a huge software library, does everything I want.  

Buy Windows XP and then updates to Vista, then to Win7, Win8, Win 8.1.  how much would that cost you?

To be frank, it would also cost me nothing, but that's because our university has a Dreamspark contract with M$. But anyways - it's not the Os of my choice, Win8 even less so. It's consistently unusable.  

As for OS4, then I agree with you that the costs is too much.  I run it on a Pegasos II but your only option if you don't want second hand hardware seems to be the $3000 X1000 or various models of low performing SAM mobos.

Somebody has to earn some money for all the time spend developing it. For both "PPC branches". That's all appreciated and understood. However, that still does not make me understand the business model behind it. It is basically a model from 30 years ago: Create a custom hardware ("home computer") with its own software and user basis, and hope that it creates enough attraction. Basically, you sold a hardware and hope that the users care for the software.  However, this type of business died a long time ago. Hardware does not count anymore. Today, you provide a software for free, or no software at all, and provide a service around it, or around a web-service, and charge for that. Hardware is unimportant. HTML is important, browsers are important.

[Thorham]

I think it would have converted many more AmigaOS3.x users

Not me. It's all about the hardware for me (AGA+68k), and I only use AOS3 because I have to. In fact, I would get rid of AOS completely if I could (linux and Aros are NOT valid options for me).

[ElPolloDiabl]

You've got a small amount of apps that should be covered by each platform:
Internet browser, music player.
Depending each persons needs: also an office suite, CD/DVD recording etc.

I pick the one that is fun to use. A quality that other OSes never had.

Here's a nice one that got finished:

http://boards.openpandora.org/page/homepage.html

[wawrzon]

If you want to get my two cents: It's probably not more worth than the two cents I just gave you... The reason is quite simple: There is no reasonably modern and reasonably large software library, and there is no reasonable hardware either. Most certainly, you can say the same for Os 4.0, which is basically the reason why I do not care much about either. Sorry for that, but that's simply as it is. For anything modern, I have Linux. For anything old, I have the 68K. But I have no use of an Operating system for exotic hardware and no software basis.

agreed. paying for these products is an act of support and should be clearly seen as such, and therefore im perfectly fine with my amigas and what they are capable of, but i will always need an contemporary computing solution and since no amigalike system offers me that, they do not count as an option.

Linux. Yes, really. You pay nothing, you get updates forever, it runs on modern hardware, and has a huge software library, does everything I want.

aros, if you want an amiga inspired system, but nicolas of course knows that;) on the other hand i must admit aros is not a complete solution, like linux, its more like work in progress and a playground for programmers, but this very much applies to every amiga like system.

To be frank, it would also cost me nothing, but that's because our university has a Dreamspark contract with M$. But anyways - it's not the Os of my choice, Win8 even less so. It's consistently unusable.

this is not a valid argument, windows is not free for general public. but i must beg to differ about 8.x usability. i used to think like that prior to purchase, but it is as good as xp or better. its a little inconsistant concept i agree, but who cares..

Somebody has to earn some money for all the time spend developing it. For both "PPC branches". That's all appreciated and understood. However, that still does not make me understand the business model behind it. It is basically a model from 30 years ago: Create a custom hardware ("home computer") with its own software and user basis, and hope that it creates enough attraction. Basically, you sold a hardware and hope that the users care for the software. However, this type of business died a long time ago. Hardware does not count anymore. Today, you provide a software for free, or no software at all, and provide a service around it, or around a web-service, and charge for that. Hardware is unimportant. HTML is important, browsers are important.

again im not a fan of microsoft, but the surface i am typing now from has saved my bottom at the beginning of the year when i was going to italy for three months of scolarship. it is a tablet but with features of a full blown notebook, it has wacom preasure sensitive pen to draw freely, it has reasonable connectivity and didnt cost more than a mid range notebook. i think it is an example that hardware counts even today. probably even the life cycle is similar as in the last millenium, just you cannot develop it in cellar anymore.

[SamuraiCrow]

It is a real shame that the Natami team fell apart after one or two of its members pissed off the man with the original idea, who has since gone into hiding and is now working alone on his ideas, probably to be released under a different name (if he is ever able to complete any of it).  The Natami project captured the imagination of a large segment of our community (including myself) and I think that it could have generated a large amount of enthusiasm and renewed programming interest on 68k Amiga.  Hopefully the Apollo boards will have a similar effect and besides being just FPGA accelerators, they will be expanded some time in the future, to include much of what the Natami had aimed for.

It was more than one or two.  I balked too when I found out the NatAmi MX might cost as much as a SAM.  That said, I've learned second-hand that Thomas Hirsch is still working on a new NatAmi.

About the Apollo accelerators, there's a locked thread about them on EAB.  Gunnar posted there that the accelerator boards will have FPGA usable HDMI and Ethernet ports on them.  The idea that some Amiga chipset core with graphics card features will use the HDMI port is very likely.

[OlafS3]

If you want to get my two cents: It's probably not more worth than the two cents I just gave you... The reason is quite simple: There is no reasonably modern and reasonably large software library, and there is no reasonable hardware either. Most certainly, you can say the same for Os 4.0, which is basically the reason why I do not care much about either. Sorry for that, but that's simply as it is. For anything modern, I have Linux. For anything old, I have the 68K. But I have no use of an Operating system for exotic hardware and no software basis.   Linux. Yes, really. You pay nothing, you get updates forever, it runs on modern hardware, and has a huge software library, does everything I want.    To be frank, it would also cost me nothing, but that's because our university has a Dreamspark contract with M$. But anyways - it's not the Os of my choice, Win8 even less so. It's consistently unusable.    Somebody has to earn some money for all the time spend developing it. For both "PPC branches". That's all appreciated and understood. However, that still does not make me understand the business model behind it. It is basically a model from 30 years ago: Create a custom hardware ("home computer") with its own software and user basis, and hope that it creates enough attraction. Basically, you sold a hardware and hope that the users care for the software.  However, this type of business died a long time ago. Hardware does not count anymore. Today, you provide a software for free, or no software at all, and provide a service around it, or around a web-service, and charge for that. Hardware is unimportant. HTML is important, browsers are important.

I agree with Thomas here, even if one of the NG options would offer 64bit/SMP/MP and run on modern hardware (Arix could be propably nearest to that) it would not offer more than Windows/Linux/Mac but minus the software base of these. And this would not magically change in future.

For me FPGA based new solutions would offer some geek factor, be modern based on new boards and would directly build up on the huge 68k base. All NG OSs (AmigaOS, MorphOS, AROS) tried to convince user and developer to change the hardware but in reality most left (the big drop was around 1998), when AmigaOS and MorphOS became reality it was already too late. And even then (for different reasons) more and more people left (sadly including many devs). AROS has finally at least get a 68k version and ROM replacements so there is a chance to create something new based on 68k independent of history with all the legal problems regarding Amiga Inc. and Hyperion. Will that solutions beat modern hardware? No. Will they outperform PPC? No (but who knows what comes :-) ). Is that necessary? No because it will certainly be a fun platform and not the workhorse. Has any of the NG options a chance to become workhorses like some seem to dream? In my view No because of the lack of software.

[KimmoK]

"NG options a chance to become workhorses "

And some "Just want my personal workhorse to be an Amiga."

For me, addition to that, a way to survive as a (niche) platform must be secured.

[OlafS3]

"NG options a chance to become workhorses "

And some "Just want my personal workhorse to be an Amiga."

For me, addition to that, a way to survive as a (niche) platform must be secured.

Surviving in case of NG means a couple of hundred (perhaps thousand +) user and that you can buy hardware (even if overpriced). My personal hope is to win much more user and I do not see that with NG because they have vastly failed because not enough software was ported, most devs left (partly even before MorphOS and AmigaOS became real). Affordable FPGA based solutions will offer more attraction because they are different to standard hardware and are based on the much bigger 68k software base. I do not say anything against the NG platforms, I think they will survive (at last as long some people are alive and using it) but I do not see a big chance to get outside the existing community (except AROS with ARM/X86/X64 but it has the problem of the propably smallest software base compared to AmigaOS/MorphOS). I am very grateful for the 68k branch of AROS though :-)

[ElPolloDiabl]

Dear Moderator,

This thread should be moved to CH. It has gone a little off-topic.
Anyone else agree?