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Author Topic: Philosophical Question - Amiguing  (Read 39339 times)

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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2013, 02:36:59 PM »
Quote from: Megamig;741207
Lets put it this way. Using sex as a metaphor
Um no, let's not put it that way.
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2013, 02:46:14 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741209
Um no, let's not put it that way.


Well amiga is girlfriend in Spanish...
 

Offline spirantho

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2013, 02:46:50 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;741208
Do your vinyl justice and play them on a Technics SL-1200/1210 with Ortorfon carts.

No point having a great amp and speakers if you're not feeding them the best input. :)


Exactly why my Linn Axis has a Goldring 1042 and an Akito Mk 1 (with new bearings) on it. :) Amp is an Onkyo TX-SR705, speakers are KEF Q35s, pre-amp a NAD PP-3.

Are we off-topic yet? :P
Put it this way, it ain't nostalgia that makes it sound so good. :) (there we are, back on topic again!)
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Offline hbarcellosTopic starter

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2013, 03:18:32 PM »
Quote from: agami;741179
It has been conclusively proven that in the presence of sense memory surrounding a subject matter, be it positive or negative, a person can never form an objective assessment related to the same subject matter. It has to do with how the amygdala consolidates emotion originating in the limbic brain with other related aspects from higher level brain functions into the hippocampus.

The limbic brain is very simple, there aren't multiple areas for the different kinds of love one may feel i.e. love of a partner, love of a child, love of a friend or family member, love of a pet, or love of inanimate objects. All those hit the same area. Of course with differing intensity and also filtered through some of the higher brains to provide context. Same goes for dislike or hate. And with animals and inanimate objects like a car or a computer we assist this emotional bond through anthropomorphism.

We can certainly discuss things objectively and we can produce written materials that read objectively, when we think about them in absence of any emotional context. But the instant we start adding adjectives describing emotions like 'I enjoy' or 'it's fun', we are automatically applying a subjective view.


I'm still reading, but I already liked! +1
Who are you, a psychologist/Psychiatrist? Good pragmatic objective view of emotions.
Where you took that from? I want to read more...
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Offline hbarcellosTopic starter

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2013, 03:48:50 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;741153

I don't need science to tell me how I feel. The very notion is absurd.


Although I understand your point, I think I disagree with your direction.
Reminds me of that old question: "Do we have free will?"

Something else that comes to my mind, making a parallel with computing, and specially with some of the subjects discussed here is:
- Some people are able to go deeper into the software layers. Even trying to make some "direct access", just like Amiga back in the days (Like coding in ASM), while some others, are still living their lives in a JVM.
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Offline Thorham

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2013, 05:22:57 PM »
Quote from: hbarcellos;741222
Although I understand your point, I think I disagree with your direction.
Reminds me of that old question: "Do we have free will?"

That question is impossible to answer without knowing whether or not there is more than just the physical universe.
 

Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2013, 05:32:48 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;741233
That question is impossible to answer without knowing whether or not there is more than just the physical universe.
I don't even know how that would help.

Either everything is deterministic, in which case no. Or some things are non-deterministic, in which case... still no. Being ruled by the "roll of a dice" is no more free than being ruled by cold, hard logic.

Actually I think it's logic that sets us free, not any ability to act arbitrarily. If you do something at random, it's not really a "choice", is it? It's not a decision unless you *made* it, by thinking. But the difference between thinking and simply calculating, like a machine...

A machine is a fixed process. A mind is a self-modifying process. We create ourselves as we go along, with a little help from randomness to shake us out of local minima.

But someone just had to ask, didn't they?
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Offline hbarcellosTopic starter

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2013, 05:55:37 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741235
I don't even know how that would help.

Either everything is deterministic, in which case no. Or some things are non-deterministic, in which case... still no. Being ruled by the "roll of a dice" is no more free than being ruled by cold, hard logic.

Actually I think it's logic that sets us free, not any ability to act arbitrarily. If you do something at random, it's not really a "choice", is it? It's not a decision unless you *made* it, by thinking. But the difference between thinking and simply calculating, like a machine...

A machine is a fixed process. A mind is a self-modifying process. We create ourselves as we go along, with a little help from randomness to shake us out of local minima.

But someone just had to ask, didn't they?


I'm confused, for sure, but I think that there are no such thing as random. Anywhere.
Some things might be "sufficient random", like the "roll of a dice" you used, but, yet, you might came up with googol variables that might be used to calculate the expected result.
If that can be accepted as a fact, we should restrict the discussion to a non-deterministic universe.
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Offline Thorham

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #82 on: July 18, 2013, 06:02:49 PM »
To Mrs Beanbag:

You're talking about the physical universe, where randomness already seems to exist. Some examples of that are radioactive decay, and the location of an electron in an atom's electron shell. Both are described by probabilities, and may well be truly random.

I'm talking about things like the soul: Are we souls, or just automatons? Do we act through the brain, or are we what's in our brains? And also: What's the nature of the origin of everything? And of course: What is everything in the first place? Pretty hard to answer, don't you agree?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 06:06:31 PM by Thorham »
 

Offline EDanaII

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2013, 06:07:03 PM »
Jumping in for a moment...

I, personally, believe that the Universe is entirely deterministic but in order to predict it, one must know all the variables. I also believe that knowing all the variables is virtually impossible, making the Universe, for all intents and purposes, random. :) Such is the conumdrum of our existance. Another conundrum is the dertministic vs. free will paradox, to which I usually say "who cares? Enjoy the ride!" ;)
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2013, 06:27:34 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;741239
To Mrs Beanbag:

You're talking about the physical universe, where randomness already seems to exist. Some examples of that are radioactive decay, and the location of an electron in an atom's electron shell. Both are described by probabilities, and may well be truly random.
My point is that randomness doesn't give us any free will, any more than determinism does.
Quote
I'm talking about things like the soul: Are we souls, or just automatons? Do we act through the brain, or are we what's in our brains? And also: What's the nature of the origin of everything? And of course: What is everything in the first place? Pretty hard to answer, don't you agree?
My other point is that even if there were something beyond the physical Universe, then whatever that was, it would either be deterministic itself, or not. But either way it doesn't help us.

Suppose we do have "souls". Then we have to answer, how does that work then? Are souls automatons? Or does your soul have a soul as well? See also Homunculus argument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument

Regarding "true randomness" and knowing all the variables in the Universe, everyone should read up on Bell's Theorem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem
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Offline Art

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2013, 06:34:22 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;741239
To Mrs Beanbag:
I'm talking about things like the soul: Are we souls, or just automatons? Do we act through the brain, or are we what's in our brains? And also: What's the nature of the origin of everything? And of course: What is everything in the first place? Pretty hard to answer, don't you agree?


It's much less effort to simply dismiss other people's conclusions :)
 

Offline Thorham

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2013, 06:54:58 PM »
Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741241
My point is that randomness doesn't give us any free will, any more than determinism does.

Right, I didn't read that quite right.

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741241
My other point is that even if there were something beyond the physical Universe, then whatever that was, it would either be deterministic itself, or not. But either way it doesn't help us.
It might if it's not deterministic or random.

Quote from: Mrs Beanbag;741241
Suppose we do have "souls". Then we have to answer, how does that work then? Are souls automatons? Or does your soul have a soul as well? See also Homunculus argument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument
I mean that we are souls, not have them, and that being one is the end of the line. As to how that would work, who knows. That's the problem with those existential questions, they're very hard, if not impossible, to answer.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2013, 07:24:25 PM »
We are not a body with a soul but a soul with a body.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2013, 07:26:25 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;741245
We are not a body with a soul but a soul with a body.
Or maybe we are just a very special body :)

Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #89 from previous page: July 18, 2013, 07:32:27 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;741244
It might if it's not deterministic or random.
It's one or the other, surely?

Quote
I mean that we are souls, not have them, and that being one is the end of the line. As to how that would work, who knows. That's the problem with those existential questions, they're very hard, if not impossible, to answer.
Right. I just don't see how "being a soul" is any more likely to answer the question than "being a physical object". What exactly is it about "souls" that make them different from ordinary matter, such that they can have free will, but physical objects can't?

You say, well that's the problem isn't it, it's impossible to know. But surely that's because we've just made a word up to cover up the gap in the knowledge, stuck a label on "the thing that answers the problem" even though we don't know what that thing is. We need to define our terms. If we can't define "free will" in terms of comprehensible processes, it doesn't mean anything at all.

"Free will" is actually two terms, "will" and "free". "Will" is the difficult one for me. I understand "free" by analogy to turing completeness. The opposite of freedom is constraint. A specialised system is constrained in what it can and can't do. A general purpose computer, however, is not. It can calculate anything calculable. Such a computer need not be made out of anything physically special - it could as well be made out of ball bearings running down tracks than out of silicon-based electronics. Or you could make a computer out of "souls" (in something like a reversal of the Chinese Room experiment, a live person could process inputs according to strict instructions and be indistinguishable from a computer). It's the process that matters, not the matter that processes.
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