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Offline Acill

Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #74 from previous page: February 02, 2004, 12:22:17 PM »
Quote
* DDR. Oops, I dared say it. For advanced claims, ask Hammer the advantages PC2100 DDR-266 has over A1's simple PC100. Needless to say, they aren't small gains.


Not to mention you can go to just about any hardware store and find memory for the Peg systems. The AmigaOne RAM is so old you need to look and then hope its rated to work at all with the AmigaOne. Dont get me wrong I am Amiga all the way and havent made a decision at all. Its just the Peg II is out and MOS is SHIPPING and WORKING on consumer boards, while OS4 is still in closed beta and still no firm date of release. That needs to be taken care of ASAP.
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Offline KennyR

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #75 on: February 02, 2004, 12:28:10 PM »
Quote
ikir wrote:
KennyR simply you are trolling. The information you give are wrong or incomplete.


If I'm wrong, I didn't intend to be. I did surf for quite a while to make sure before I posted those comparison specs. But that was not trolling, not even by AmigaWorld's strange standards.

Quote
As i know all the A1 XE models have the AC97 integrated.


A mistake on my part. I apologise. I'll edit my post.

@xeron
Linux can use Pegasos firewire. But that's really beside the point in a purely hardware comparison.
 

Offline BigBenAussie

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #76 on: February 02, 2004, 12:28:54 PM »
Hi Guys,

I'm a newby here. Excuse my rambling but it may give you some insight into where a lot of the less hardcore Amiga enthusiasts are coming from.
I left the Amiga world in the early 90s and I want to come back in from the cold.

I had an A1000 back in my 10th year at school with an IBM XT compat sidecar(which I upgraded to a 286 8mghz Woohoo:)  which allowed me to use a PC hard-disk for the Amiga back when they were hideously expensive and terribly low capacity. Using a PC on an Amiga was also something to boast of as was the Mac emulator I had at the time.

To me the Amiga, and all the kick ass graphics and sound made me excited about technology in a way no PC has since. It was the logical successor to the C64 which I also adored.

That A1000 was such a cool little machine I bought it 'used', over an A500 of the same price. I didn't notice any difference in capabilities really, although booting kickstart from disk was a pain. Years later I bought a second A1000 cheap just to get a memory upgrade. Hey, doesn't everyone do that?

The Amiga name itself conjures up memories of how all my PC and ST friends were envious as hell at the terrific looking games, music and graphic apps I had. And I never had to modify a config.sys file. It was an all in one turnkey system that inspired some ####iness on my part due to costing a third of most PCs at the time. (Funny that the tables are turned and a decent PC will probably cost a third or less than the A1.)

Those demos showing off the hardware and music capabilities of the system are what knocked everyone's socks off at the time. I wonder if the demo scene will ever re-ignite.

I am not sure if hardware speed alone can inspire that kind of elation. If speed is your thing, I can guarantee that a similar priced PC will kick an Amiga. 3D graphic cards are the 'in' thing and we're going to share that with the PC, if we're lucky. While you obviously need decent hardware you need decent software as well.

I think the main problem we are facing is one of software. The hardware is really irrelevant except to the most hardcore of people who have maintained an ongoing investment in Amiga products. I commend you for keeping the spirit alive, and hope you don't mind that some of your investments may take a backseat to the developments at Amiga Inc.

But the fact remains, that the killer app for the Amiga was the games. With the new bunch of consoles and the 3d capabilities and software base of the PC, I would think it impossible to reclaim the throne. But I guess we don't need to.

However, what is the most exciting prospect about the Amiga One and AOS 4 is the potential to re-ignite the passions of people who once had an Amiga. I see many people returning to an Amiga for sentimental reasons. Admittedly its all in the fondness for the name. You can't call something a PegasOS and get the same effect, no matter what the price. No one comes back to a Pegasos!!!! They will come back to an Amiga though. I know I will. People grew up with them and now, almost ten years later have the greater disposable income to purchase a brand new Amiga system regardless of its exorbitant cost. Pegasos, may be better and cheaper, and you may end up arguing that until you're blue in the face, and even proving it, but your starry eyed new Amiga owner won't even give it a second thought. Its the official Amiga, the Amiga One, all the way and any other talk could be considered sacrilege(?).

But, like everyone, I want to know what configurations A1s come in and how much it will cost. Personally, I haven't the patience to stuff around trying to get things to work for more than 2 minutes. Kinda the reason I wiped Linux. With dedicated hardware I wanna see it work first go. I want the official turnkey solution with the official case and the big Amiga Logo before I can take it seriously. Without that, its just another motherboard in some bodgey case and I might as well stick to my BORG PC. Did you hear that Alan Redhouse!!!!! And the case better look as cool as the MAC ones if we're going to pay the premium!!! Love that new stainless steel look!!!

I gotta say, Morphos looks beautiful, and I love that Ambient UI, but I might as well be running Beos for the good it will do me.

Having an Amiga was like being the underdog. Its probably still the case, with the Wintel alliance. It now looks like we may have finally gotten something better. Having a Pegasos is like being the underdog to Amiga. Effectively an underdog to an underdog. But that's your choice and I respect that.

I wonder, could the two systems, both A1 and PegasOS prop eachother up and create a broader community rather than two disparate ones. I am hoping we're all on this newsgroup for the same reason.

I have checked some of the profiles and it seems that a few of you are intending to develop for both. I am wondering if there will be any kind of compatability between apps for AOS and Morphos? If there is, and they are similar to program, perhaps someone can develop a toolkit or even a guide to converting apps not only from Morphos to Amiga and back, but from PC to Amiga systems and back. I'd buy that book!!!!

I have now been a software engineer writing serious windows and internet business apps for almost a decade, and although I never programmed anything except a little AMOS game on the Amiga it kind of died before I had the skills to do something decent.

I am eager to get my hands on a completed fully fledged system and add some decent apps and maybe even a little game to the community. Everything old is new again, and we have the chance to reinterpret the world in the Amiga image.

It just occurred to me that it was the one-upmanship within the developer community that propelled the original Amiga. Both within the Amiga community and with the other platforms. Something that is sorely lacking in these days of Blockbuster budget games.

I really hope that Amiga Inc never make a closed system like PS2 or Nintendo(should they make a console) and that the Amiga community of enthusiasts can begin in earnest to create new and innovative apps and games even if the audience is limited. Back in the early nineties it seemed like anyone could write a game or app and you didn't need a crew of 20 or more. I hope we return to this, as that is where all the innovation came from. Hell, OS4 is being written by only 2 or 3 guys and its in the same league as Windows!!!!

These are exciting times for us, and all the enthusiasts and hobbyists out there. But I'm willing to wait for my dream system. Please, please, don't release it with bugs. I would hate for the Amiga One to become a laughing stock. Hey, but don't wait so long the hardware is dated either!!!

Ben
 
 

Offline itix

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #77 on: February 02, 2004, 12:30:56 PM »
Quote

PEGASOSG3600

Pegasos G3/600.Board w/CPU-mod.G3 600MHz(750CXe)+M

6163,-

6040,-  


Huh! For Peg G3 motherboard that is expensive...!  You should get G4 GHz for that price :-o
My Amigas: A500, Mac Mini and PowerBook
 

Offline rayt

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #78 on: February 02, 2004, 01:02:38 PM »
@KennyR

Quote
* Faster AGP. Forget that it's labelled x1, thanks to Articia its still faster than AmigaONE x2 AGP.


How do you know that? Just because Bill Buck said so? Or is there a proof for that?

@Acill

Quote
Not to mention you can go to just about any hardware store and find memory for the Peg system


I doubt you can do that. The Pegasos2 does not support every DDR module. Here you can see a few ones that work/don“t work though.
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2004, 01:14:21 PM »
Quote
rayt wrote:
How do you know that? Just because Bill Buck said so? Or is there a proof for that?


Not Bill Buck. Gerald Carda I think, although I could be wrong. He designed the April fix for the first Pegasos and should know all of ArticiaS's "features". Apparently ArticiaS makes it impossible to get the full bandwidth out of the PCI/AGP/IDE bus without hanging it or getting corrupt data.
 

Offline Crumb

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2004, 01:41:41 PM »
April does anything apart from slowing down everything? Why it slows down Articia to 100Mhz instead of 133? Why you can use both memory banks on the A1 with unregistered memory and not in the Pegasos1? Incorrect initialization maybe? Why Pegasos II still has compatibility issues with some DDR dimms if it has been set up with conservative settings?

Why PegasosII still has lock-ups with the IDE? The southbridge is still initialized incorrectly (like in the pegasos1)? Problems with the interrupts? Wasn't it an ArticiaS issue?

If doing Articia drivers is not so problematic why the UDMA OS4 drivers are taking do long?

Why A1 hasn't a driver for the on-board soundcard? Why the Pegasos hasn't a Firewire or floppy driver yet?

I advice to wait to compare both solutions in a more advanced state.

There are too many questions without answer yet and I'm so bored. None of both solutions seems to be 100% safe yet. Both parties have to improve their drivers a lot. When the drivers are finished it will be the time to compare.

At the moment a Pegasos2 G3 is clearly a better option if you don't have money or if you don't want to wait until the a1 lite.

If we choose a G4 model the price difference between A1 and Peg2 G4 is quite smaller and the A1 could be an option. But they are both quite expensive...
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Offline JurassicCamper

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2004, 02:06:34 PM »
Quote

KennyR wrote:
Well, you asked for it:

* DDR. Oops, I dared say it. For advanced claims, ask Hammer the advantages PC2100 DDR-266 has over A1's simple PC100. Needless to say, they aren't small gains.


A1 PC100 Eh ?... Sounds like more FUD!
Yeah sure you can use PC100 if you want, but why ?
I've got 1GB here 512MB kingston 133 ECC & 512MB Hynix Non-ECC, with a 750FX at 1GHZ.
Quote

* ATA100 UDMA. Embarassingly, it seems that ArtiaS bugs that have long been denied may just make this impossible on A1. I hope for Eyetech's sake there is a fix. The idea of an $800 board running IDE on PIO4 is very depressing.


Again people don't listen.
i'll spell it out for you slowly so you understand.

III.TTT.SSS AAA. LLL.III.NNN.UUU.XXX. III.SSS.SSS.UUU.EEE !!!!
Quote

 Faster AGP. Forget that it's labelled x1, thanks to Articia its still faster than AmigaONE x2 AGP.


And you make your comparison on what information.
Or is this more FUD Spreading ?

Quote

* Infrared IRDA control. A1 has none.


But does have a IRDA header.

Quote

* Two ethernet ports, one gigabit. A1 has just one, and its not gigabit.


True its is 100Mb, but I'd love to see you post a screen grab of RCFTPD 2.74 using the gigabit port under morphos, so we can all see what speed the OS actually can push . I bet its not doesnt come near 100Mb so whats the point in having it.

Quote

* Two firewire ports capable of 400MB/s. A1 has none.


True.... cant think of a need for them.

Quote

* Two PS/2 ports. A1 has one.


Thats a bit odd I've got a Mouse and keyboard plugged in here ... that makes 2.

Quote

* Free firmware updates. A1 earlybird owners had to pay to get their bios updated for OS4.


This was a blunder that a few people with G3 boards,  got stung by. But all subsiquent ugrades are free. Didn't the peg2 ship with a corrupt bios. See every side is human and makes mistakes.

Quote

* Free Amigalike OS bundled. OS4 was quoted at $160.


Were did you get that figure from ? No price has been quoted AFAIK  More FUD kenny ? OS4 is FREE to earlybird purchasers and AFAIK the offer still stands upto the point when OS4 final version ships. Then the earlybird offer with end.
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Offline Kronos

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #82 on: February 02, 2004, 02:10:38 PM »
@Crumb
Your other questions are to inflammable for me and today ...

Quote

 Why the Pegasos hasn't a Firewire or floppy driver yet?



FW, cos it's a hell lot of work (similar to an usefull USB-stack, if not worse).

The floppy-controller in the VIA-southbridges is still the accessed the same
way as it was in IBM's AT from 1982 ......

Yes it is that bad, and you can't just write normal driver with breaking stuff
inside Quark (thats laire's excuse  ;-) ). And really of what use would it be, since
you couldn't read Amiga-formated disks with it ?

Those who really need floppies can buy a Catweasle, those who just need PC-floppies
can buy an USB-drive (yes those should work).
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2004, 02:43:34 PM »
Quote
JurrasicCamper wrote:
Yeah sure you can use PC100 if you want, but why ?
I've got 1GB here 512MB kingston 133 ECC & 512MB Hynix Non-ECC, with a 750FX at 1GHZ.


Ok, PC133 then. But still not as fast as DDR and you know it.

Quote
i'll spell it out for you slowly so you understand.

III.TTT.SSS AAA. LLL.III.NNN.UUU.XXX. III.SSS.SSS.UUU.EEE !!!!


If OS4 comes out and can't do UDMA, what will your excuse be then? Will you blame Hyperion in triple letters too?

Quote
True its is 100Mb, but I'd love to see you post a screen grab of RCFTPD 2.74 using the gigabit port under morphos, so we can all see what speed the OS actually can push . I bet its not doesnt come near 100Mb so whats the point in having it.

* Two firewire ports capable of 400MB/s. A1 has none.

True.... cant think of a need for them.


You're intentionally sidestepping the point. The point is, these do make the Pegasos-2 technically superior whether you like it or not or call it FUD or not or find any use for the extra power or not. So get over it already.
 

Offline TheMagicM

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2004, 02:45:52 PM »
KennyR, JurassicCamper, all.... if your posts are NOT ACCURATE, EDIT THEM.   Otherwise it will just add more flame/troll bait to whats already out there. If I have to delete posts, I will.  


Thanks, and have a GREAT day,

Alex
PowerMac G5 dual 2.0ghz/128meg Radeon/500gb HD/2GB RAM, MorphOS 3.9 registered, user #1900
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Offline xeron

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2004, 02:47:40 PM »
Quote

KennyR wrote:

If OS4 comes out and can't do UDMA, what will your excuse be then? Will you blame Hyperion in triple letters too?


He won't need to.
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Offline Crumb

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #86 on: February 02, 2004, 03:08:00 PM »
@KennyR

"Ok, PC133 then. But still not as fast as DDR and you know it."

Although it obviously increases speed of some I/O operations, everyone knows that G4s bus can't take advantage of DDR memory and is limited to a non DDR 133Mhz bus.

About the AGP the benchmarks of Pegasos1 vs Pegasos2 suggested that Pegasos1 AGP was faster (I don't care much, for me the point of using AGP is being able to use cheaper cards)
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Offline downix

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2004, 03:08:41 PM »
Quote

xeron wrote:
Quote

KennyR wrote:
* Two firewire ports capable of 400MB/s. A1 has none.


Can anything actually use them yet? If not, they're under the same classification as the A1's onboard sound; IE there but not very useful.


I use the Firewire on my Pegasos every so often.  (having a firewire-based camera does that ya know)  Works great for Debian.
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Offline Crumb

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2004, 03:10:05 PM »
"And really of what use would it be, since
you couldn't read Amiga-formated disks with it ?"

you could read pc-formatted disks...
I know that nowadays it's not as important, but it's a little annoying. If the motherboard includes a floppy controller why should I buy a more expensive usb or floptical drive?

If you talk with Laire it would be nice for Mac emus if he leaved free the address from 0x0000 to 0x3000 (yes, like prepareEmul or RsrvCold did). It won't affect MOS but will allow mac emus to be ported easily (who knows, iFusion may even work directly with this small change).
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Offline NicoPPC

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Re: Pegasos II vs AmigaOne
« Reply #89 on: February 02, 2004, 03:13:10 PM »
Quote

Crumb wrote:
April does anything apart from slowing down everything? Why it slows down Articia to 100Mhz instead of 133?

April does not slow down everything. April DOES not slow down the bus, this is setup by the FirmWare (you can read the FirmWare startup serial output).
And even if the April WOULD slow down the computer it WOULD be worth because it DOES fix ArticiaS issue.

Quote

 Why Pegasos II still has compatibility issues with some DDR dimms if it has been set up with conservative settings?

There are indeed , some imconpatibles memory module, but nothing compare to the ArticiaS 's hell.

Quote

Why PegasosII still has lock-ups with the IDE? The southbridge is still initialized incorrectly (like in the pegasos1)? Problems with the interrupts? Wasn't it an ArticiaS issue?

It has never been said it was because of the ArticiaS, but a bug (maybe lack of doc) of the VIA8231.
This problem is not Pegasos specific. And it IS fix in software in Linux. And you can solve it in MorphOS 1.4, you have to disable the removable feautre of you CD/DVD/ZIP drive using UnitControl
Quote

If doing Articia drivers is not so problematic why the UDMA OS4 drivers are taking do long?

Well, maybe because ArticiaS DMA doesn't work ???
(I'm just ironic here, I dunno at all !!)

Quote

Why the Pegasos hasn't a Firewire or floppy driver yet?

Pegasos DOES have driver for floppy and FireWire using Linux or OpenBSD (only floppy I guess).
About MorphOS certainly because they don't want to support stone age device (for floppy), and because FireWire need a driver but also the whole stack ...

Quote

None of both solutions seems to be 100% safe yet. Both parties have to improve their drivers a lot. When the drivers are finished it will be the time to compare.

Pegasos IS safe.