We need an iBrowse replacement for 68k!!!

[matthey]

OK guys, I spent some time fixing up the 68k toolchain for NetSurf, so it now builds again and all the dependent libraries build too.

I've also spent quite a while fixing all the compiler and linker errors for the OS4 build, when passed through the 68k toolchain.  It now builds and runs (don't get too excited) as far as errorneously displaying the splash window as a long thin window at the top of the screen.  It then crashes, probably somewhere between initialising the DataTypes handler and initialising NetSurf.  If I run it on OS4 (yes, that earlier test was on OS3.5, just to check I got the same thing) I can ignore past the crash, and then it crashes creating the main window.

I should probably try to build a simple ReAction example to check that side of things is working, as the splash window couldn't be much simpler so it makes me think the macros are somehow screwed up.

I'll probably keep poking it with my stick but it would progress a lot quicker if I had some help.  Anybody?

Thanks for the work Chris. You have made a lot of Amiga changes and the C source code appears to be in good shape. It looks like you need help from someone with an AmigaOS 4 or Linux environment and with good cross-compiling skills using a newer version of GCC. That's not me but if you could build an executable that is close with SAS/C style debug and symbols then I might be able to help debug NetSurf. I doubt there is any way to get the SAS/C debug and symbols when compiling with a newer version of GCC (STABS or DWARF?) and compiling with vbcc would be more work. Do you use an ELF2HUNK utility to convert the new GCC output from 68k ELF to Amiga Hunk format? What version of GCC are you using?

[utri007]

Exist any Netsurf version to run in native Amiga Video chip set?.

Amiga OS4 classic can run Netsurf with plain AGA

[chris]

Thanks for the work Chris. You have made a lot of Amiga changes and the C source code appears to be in good shape. It looks like you need help from someone with an AmigaOS 4 or Linux environment and with good cross-compiling skills using a newer version of GCC. That's not me but if you could build an executable that is close with SAS/C style debug and symbols then I might be able to help debug NetSurf. I doubt there is any way to get the SAS/C debug and symbols when compiling with a newer version of GCC (STABS or DWARF?) and compiling with vbcc would be more work. Do you use an ELF2HUNK utility to convert the new GCC output from 68k ELF to Amiga Hunk format? What version of GCC are you using?

I'm using GCC 3.4.6, it creates Hunk binaries without running through any utilities. I think I'm building with -gstabs already (hangover from OS4), and don't have a clue about debugging under 68k.

At the moment I just want to know why creating bitmap.image objects is failing. I suspect there's something broken in the NDK includes I'm using.

[NovaCoder]

I'm using GCC 3.4.6, it creates Hunk binaries without running through any utilities. I think I'm building with -gstabs already (hangover from OS4), and don't have a clue about debugging under 68k.

At the moment I just want to know why creating bitmap.image objects is failing. I suspect there's something broken in the NDK includes I'm using.

You are using the 3.9 NDK I assume?


Wish I had some time to help Chris

[matthey]

I'm using GCC 3.4.6, it creates Hunk binaries without running through any utilities. I think I'm building with -gstabs already (hangover from OS4), and don't have a clue about debugging under 68k.

The best GUI debugger for the Amiga 68k is BDebug in the Barfly package.

http://aminet.net/dev/asm/BarflyDisk2_00.lha

The docs say that it supports STABS as well as the SAS/C (SAS D1) debug info. It might be worth a try to open a source window. BDebug can catch an exception from a crash and allow you to debug from the crash location.

At the moment I just want to know why creating bitmap.image objects is failing. I suspect there's something broken in the NDK includes I'm using.

First, make sure you are using the 3.9 NDK as Novacoder suggests. Next, you might try these fixed NDK 3.9 includes:

http://www.heywheel.com/matthey/Amiga/fixed-includes-ndk39.lha

They are from the dead AWeb web site. AWeb uses ClassACT/Reaction also and these were probably fixed by Andy Broad (broadblues).

There is a list of some Reaction bugs in the following text:

http://www.heywheel.com/matthey/Amiga/ami-code.txt

I didn't see anything related to bitmap.image though. Let me know if you find a bug and I may be able to patch it.

Edit: I read the bitmap_ic_relnotes from the NDK 3.9 and it sounds like the old bitmap.image was problematic:

bitmap.image 45.1 (03.02.2001)

· complete rewrite, as H&P don't have the sources of
  the original class. this one supports transparent
  blits to interleaved screens. The corrupted nav.-
  buttons of AWeb are gone, now.

My version with AmigaOS 3.9 is bitmap.image 45.1 (03/03/01).

[chris]

The best GUI debugger for the Amiga 68k is BDebug in the Barfly package.

http://aminet.net/dev/asm/BarflyDisk2_00.lha

The docs say that it supports STABS as well as the SAS/C (SAS D1) debug info. It might be worth a try to open a source window. BDebug can catch an exception from a crash and allow you to debug from the crash location.

Cool, I'll have a look at it, thanks.

First, make sure you are using the 3.9 NDK as Novacoder suggests. Next, you might try these fixed NDK 3.9 includes:

http://www.heywheel.com/matthey/Amiga/fixed-includes-ndk39.lha

They are from the dead AWeb web site. AWeb uses ClassACT/Reaction also and these were probably fixed by Andy Broad (broadblues).

I'm using the NDK 3.9 includes, fixed for GCC from elsewhere.  A cursory glance suggests yours are the same.  I was hoping images/bitmap.h might have been fixed but it's not in that file.

Edit: I read the bitmap_ic_relnotes from the NDK 3.9 and it sounds like the old bitmap.image was problematic:

bitmap.image 45.1 (03.02.2001)

· complete rewrite, as H&P don't have the sources of
  the original class. this one supports transparent
  blits to interleaved screens. The corrupted nav.-
  buttons of AWeb are gone, now.

My version with AmigaOS 3.9 is bitmap.image 45.1 (03/03/01).

I'm running my test program on OS4, so it's not that.  I've modified the integer.gadget example in the NDK (which works) to include a bitmap.image object, and it just doesn't open the window.  I must be missing something.

The same code does work when built for OS4 with the OS4 includes, which is why I was thinking there might be something wrong with the 3.9 includes.

[whabang]

May I ask what you intend to do with a modern browser on a 50-100 MHz machine? It's not like it's powerful enough to do much with a modern JS engine anyway.

Personally, I believe porting a more simple browser like Dillo would make more sense...

[biggun]

May I ask what you intend to do with a modern browser on a 50-100 MHz machine? ..

Most resent FPGA 68K cores deliver performance in many areas in the range of 500 MHz 68030 CPU or more.

Running a bit more demanding applications is working better now.

[whabang]

Most resent FPGA 68K cores deliver performance in many areas in the range of 500 MHz 68030 CPU or more.

Running a bit more demanding applications is working better now.

Ah, of course. I'd forgotten about those. That makes it a little more viable.

[Yasu]

Will Netsurf work on a plain A1200 with 4 MB fast RAM?

[whabang]

Will Netsurf work on a plain A1200 with 4 MB fast RAM?

It's situations like that where I believe a Dillo port would be more suited. I'd suggest you try, but I think you'll run out of RAM very quickly.

[Yasu]

It's situations like that where I believe a Dillo port would be more suited. I'd suggest you try, but I think you'll run out of RAM very quickly.

It rather makes me think open sorceing Ibrowse would be a good idea. Netsurf might be better for beefier Amigas, but lets not forget about the ones with slower machines.

[Heiroglyph]

Will Netsurf work on a plain A1200 with 4 MB fast RAM?

(Not picking on you, Yasu)

I understand that not everyone has a big system, but come on, this is why we can't have nice things.

The "it's gotta work on an A500" mentality didn't help us in the 90's and it's not helping now.

At some point, you need to get some upgrades if you want to run software that wasn't made in the 90's, for 80's systems.

[Yasu]

(Not picking on you, Yasu)

I understand that not everyone has a big system, but come on, this is why we can't have nice things.

The "it's gotta work on an A500" mentality didn't help us in the 90's and it's not helping now.

At some point, you need to get some upgrades if you want to run software that wasn't made in the 90's, for 80's systems.

Which is why I use MorphOS

[Heiroglyph]

Which is why I use MorphOS

lol, hey, at least you paid for something.

I just think a lot of people expect there to be some way for stock 90's systems to browse the web with a total memory capacity smaller than the size of the images on the site. It's frustrating.

There are CPU cards and RAM upgrades available at reasonable prices, so I don't think having an expectation of reasonable upgrades is too much to ask for.

[NovaCoder]

(Not picking on you, Yasu)

I understand that not everyone has a big system, but come on, this is why we can't have nice things.

The "it's gotta work on an A500" mentality didn't help us in the 90's and it's not helping now.

At some point, you need to get some upgrades if you want to run software that wasn't made in the 90's, for 80's systems.

It's a good question.

You can't expect a Classic to offer Chrome levels of speed, that's crazy.

I think with an 060 and RTG you should be able to create a 'usable' browser experience, AGA wouldn't be as usable of course but should still be better than using IBrowse.

Usable doesn't mean fast or fully featured, just that most sites would work and be rendered before you get bored.

Anything less than an 060 (or FAST FPGA!) would be better off sticking to AWeb or I browse.